Random Little Questions

[Corlis]

I had a couple of little lore questions about FFH that probably don't deserve their own threads. I guess if other people have little mini-questions they could ask them here as well...

1. I remember that the elemental Angels aren't just concerned with the elements themselves (Fire, Ice, etc) but also with certain principles that are mirrored in their choice of element. For example, Mulcarn's sphere isn't Ice in and of itself, but rather the idea of preservation and stasis; likewise, Bhall's sphere isn't just Fire, but more generally revolutionary change. So, what are the underlying concepts behind Danalin and Kilmorph's spheres? I figured that Danalin was concerned with emotion, but it's kind of hard to tell since Hastur is polluting his sphere.

2. When a vampire drains someone, do their souls get annihilated or trapped inside the vampire or something? Lugus doesn't like the vampires because one of his servants was Alexis' first victim, but it seems unlikely that he'd be all that angry if the guy's soul just went straight into his vault.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

I had a couple of little lore questions about FFH that probably don't deserve their own threads. I guess if other people have little mini-questions they could ask them here as well...

1. I remember that the elemental Angels aren't just concerned with the elements themselves (Fire, Ice, etc) but also with certain principles that are mirrored in their choice of element. For example, Mulcarn's sphere isn't Ice in and of itself, but rather the idea of preservation and stasis; likewise, Bhall's sphere isn't just Fire, but more generally revolutionary change. So, what are the underlying concepts behind Danalin and Kilmorph's spheres? I figured that Danalin was concerned with emotion, but it's kind of hard to tell since Hastur is polluting his sphere.

so, i'll try to answer, until magister comes along and corrects me.

Kilmorph is patron to hard work and being rewarded for hard work. I don't think Danalin is Emotion... if anything, that'de be Bhall (as in passion)

2. When a vampire drains someone, do their souls get annihilated or trapped inside the vampire or something? Lugus doesn't like the vampires because one of his servants was Alexis' first victim, but it seems unlikely that he'd be all that angry if the guy's soul just went straight into his vault.

we don't know. i beleive there is a thread about that, somewhre...

 

[cyther]

Well, Danalin is asleep at the moment so currently his sphere isn't doing anything.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Kilmorph is the goddess of the earth, autumn, and the harvest. She represents tradition, practicality, honesty, hard work, and the honest profits from these. She is almost as opposed to change as Mulcarn, but their differing alignments does make some differences. Politically, she would be a Classical Conservative, whereas Mulcarn would be Reactionary. She doesn't think that people should break with the tradition of their ancestors, but would allow the gradual development of new traditions within the existing system, once the new ideas have been proven to be practical.


Kilmorph's main enemy is Tali, God of Air. He is fun-loving, freedom-loving, adventurous, anti-establishment, non-traditional, often irrational, impulsive impractical, irresponsible, mischievous, and good natured. People think of him and his followers as chaotic, but he actually isn't that hard to predict that he will behave irresponsible. He'll pretty much do whatever people don't want him to. On account of this Kilmorph probably views him as evil, but he did not side against The One and his general rebelliousness is actually staying true to his purpose: to make life interesting.





I'm not really sure about the broader meaning of Danalin's precept, only that he was very close friends with Tali. I guess it could have to do with emotion, but certianly not the sort of passionate emotion that Bhall represents. Passion/Bhall is closely tied to Hatred/Camulos and is very extroverted. Passion isn't really as emotional, as it acts immediately of any fleeting feeling and doesn't really let them condense and take on the depth that Danalin should have. If Danalin is an emotional sort, he is probably closer to Sirona. Both of these two deities are associated with tears, and both preferred not to get very involved in the Godswar. He may be a rather calm, sensitive, introverted, individualistic, "Emo" god.

If we want to tie the spheres to classical humorism:
Tali - Air -Spring - Sanguine - light hearted/funloving/spontaneous/confidant
Bhall -Fire - Summer - Choleric - ambitious/passionate/energetic/charismatic/angry
Kilmorph - Earth - Autumn - Melancholic - thoughtful/considerate/prone to depression (she was depressed when she agreed to enchant the minthril golem)/perfectionistic/
Danalin - Water - Winter - Phlegmatic - consistent/relaxed/observant/relaxed/rational/unemotional/reliable/compassionate

The first 3 fit very well, but I'm not sure how well Danalin does; in FfH, Winter and a calm/cold/calculating personality fit the Ice sphere better than Water.

If we want to deal with astronomy:
Tali - Air Sign - Intellect/idealism/haste/perspective
Bhall - Fire Sign - action/passion/heat/energy
Kilmorph - Earth Sign - practicality/stability/dependability/caution/overprotection
Danalin - Water Sign - emotion/growth/imagination/intuition/insight/sensitivity/loving/moody

This is fitting for Bhall and Kilmorph, and with our conjecture on Danalin (and many aspects of what we know from the overlords), except that water and air aren't supposed to get along very well at all and we know that Danalin and Tali were best friends. Of course, Tali doesn't fit this description as well as the others, and perhaps opposites attract.

 

[Corlis]

If we want to tie the spheres to classical humorism:
Tali - Air -Spring - Sanguine - light hearted/funloving/spontaneous/confidant
Bhall -Fire - Summer - Choleric - ambitious/passionate/energetic/charismatic/angry
Kilmorph - Earth - Autumn - Melancholic - thoughtful/considerate/prone to depression (she was depressed when she agreed to enchant the minthril golem)/perfectionistic/
Danalin - Water - Winter - Phlegmatic - consistent/relaxed/observant/relaxed/rational/unemotional/reliable/compassionate

Maybe if we switched Kilmorph and Danalin's attributes here it might work better? Depression is certainly the right word to use for Danalin, whereas reliable, consistent, and compassionate would seem to match Kilmorph pretty well. In this case, maybe Tali and Danalin are similar because they are the most likely to act on emotion rather than logic? So it seems to me, anyhow.

 

[xienwolf]

Personally I see each of them as being translations of their element/sphere into the non-physical sense and aspects which are possible to be bad if they are done to the extreme. As such, I would label Danalin (Water) to be Persistence. Though his falling asleep after his chosen people are wiped out might be a tad contrary to his own manifestation. However it could be taken as his "Falling" since when Angels fall they Invert their precept, which would have Persistence change to Inaction. And that is precisely what happened to him.


EDIT: And since I noticed I didn't say WHY I choose persistence, for those who have different views of water than myself, it is because the power of water isn't an instant thing, it is in being unstoppable and relentless. Water can carve valleys, erode cliffsides and otherwise completely alter the world, but it does so quite slowly and gradually. And while you might be able to divert the COURSE of water, it is nearly impossible to change the DESTINATION.

 

[Annex]

I have a quick question about Odio. Is there a way/ritual to free him from his prison or is he stuck there forever? Does he have any folowers or chosen people who would try to do this?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, I don't buy the water = persistence thing. Water can have a great deal of instant power (including the ability to drastically change landscape in a short time), given high enough speed and volume. Etymologically, Persistent means "standing completely still." Being steadfast if wrong for the water god. As a fluid, water yields under any stress and stays together only because of external pressure. It consistently runs downhill because it completely yields to the weak force of gravity, not because it has a goal to go downhill. It is fairly easy to divert, pump, capture, or evaporate. The sphere seems inherently passive and flexible. He would be more likely to just "go with the flow" and usually let troubles go by "like water off a duck's back." Everyday occurrences would barely disturb him all, as he has such great emotional depth. "Still waters run deep."



I don't know if there is any particular way of freeing Odio or if he has followers. All we know about him is that he is the archangel of Aeron and that, at Kilmorph's behest, he had is Ara withdrawn from him so that Kilmorph could reach out with the earth and pulled him in, turning him to stone. I personally like to think he is merely encased in a thick layer of stone, so could be released if only people were to dig enough. Unless his Aura was returned to him though (which would probably strengthen him enough to break out on his own), he would probably be weaker than any other archangel.

(Or, maybe his ara could be returned to him in some other way, though the shear strength of the hatred of those around him.)

I'm thinkng we need to get Kael to tell us more about what exactly an Angel's Ara is.

 

[xienwolf]

Kael stated that if someone models a Unit which looks just like the Feature, he would make it possible to rescue and use Odio.

EDIT: And I forgot to say, but Persistent does NOT mean Inept or Slow. Just because you are steadfast in your aims doesn't mean you will ALWAYS take FOREVER to accomplish them. Yes, water is quite capable of large-scale instant destruction, but dedicating that large of a force for a short while also requires devotion to a task at your fullest.

 

[Annex]

I definitely agree. I think it would be cool if you could gain control over Odio if you were to free him from his prison (like you can with Brigit).

 

[Kael]

MC is of course right on the money. Danalin is emotion, but on the side of serenity. Exact opposite of Bhall's wild passion. He is very close to Sirona. Different in his neutral aspect (Sirona is about compassion, Danalin is about calm). Danalin loves and guides, but it is the love of a couple married for 50 years. He is an aspect of wisdom and inspiration but it is the wisdom of contemplation and age more than sudden revelation.

Hastur has deeply influenced Danalin's effect. Instead of calm there are bursts of rage, dark storms and churning seas. Instead of quiet wisdom their are bursts of sudden incomprehensible prophecy. Hastur is the archangel of the mind and Danalin's role of stability has been ignored since the Age of Magic. Heightening the chaos of the world, strengthening Bhall's influence and tending toward a world of wild surges.

 

[seZereth]

Kael stated that if someone models a Unit which looks just like the Feature, he would make it possible to rescue and use Odio.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

Do it I say I I I say I say!!! And may I suggest to Kael to add a script that only an evil civ can get him and allow only Good and Neutrals civs get Brigit?!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Do it I say I I I say I say!!! And may I suggest to Kael to add a script that only an evil civ can get him and allow only Good and Neutrals civs get Brigit?!

I was going to suggest something similar.

I'm thinking that Brigit_held should be removed, and Brigit should be created by an onMove python effect/event (like the Letum Frigus one) option only available to Good players. I'm thinking maybe Evil units trying to free her should be killed by her instead. I'm not all that sure what to about Neutral players, and might let them go ahead and have the good option too.

I'm thinking Odio should be created in a similar way, but that he should join only Evil players but that a Good or Neutral player could free him as a Barbarian unit.


I'm thinking that Odio should be able to Cast Enrage, and Brigit should be able to cast Pillar of Fire.

 

[Corlis]

So if Danalin presided over calmness, I suppose ocean storms must have been rather less common in the time before Hastur began meddling then, right? I wonder how that makes him akin to Tali, though.

I'm thinking Odio should be created in a similar way, but that he should join only Evil players but that a Good or Neutral player could free him as a Barbarian unit.

I'm thinking that Odio should be able to Cast Enrage, and Brigit should be able to cast Pillar of Fire.

Maybe you should have to be at war with a certain number of other civs in order to garner enough hate to free him, in addition to, say, two sources of Body Mana?

 

[Atnanor]

Are any of the people whom stole those elemental gems civ. leaders?

 

[KillerClowns]

Do it I say I I I say I say!!! And may I suggest to Kael to add a script that only an evil civ can get him and allow only Good and Neutrals civs get Brigit?!

I'm rather fond of Brigit, especially as the Clan of Embers and Balseraphs... two civs not known for their kindness. Perhaps it would be better to have two Brigits: One at her present stats and another, corrupted by her rescuers and once again serving Bhall... made demonic, with unholy damage instead of holy, but otherwise the same.
Odio, on the other hand, might be quite willing to serve anyone who let him out of his prison, perhaps because his release might involve him being bound to his "rescuer."

 

[orangelex44]

Are any of the people whom stole those elemental gems civ. leaders?

Yeah, I was poking around the lore a while ago and found out about these guys... three brothers, I think, who stole the elemental gems (read: powers) of Death, Air, and - Nature? Something like that.

Anyway, I thought that this was a great story that NEVER appears anywhere other than buried in the depths of the forum's graveyard. What happened to this story? Is it still canon? Heck, I don't even know more than the sketchy details I put here...

I think this little part of the lore should make an appearence somehow in the game, whether as an event, units, Civilopedia, or Act of Kael.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The gems of Air, Water, and Death were taken by The Three brothers (aka The Three Kings). I think this is cannon. Few details have been released though. I'm thinking that it probably happened in the Age of Magic (perhaps very early in the age, before Kyorlin conquered and united their three kingdoms to create Patria), so they are probably dead now. They are one of the greatest legends that all the civs of Erebus tell versions of while gazing at the 3 stars that make up their constellation.



The only name that was released is Tuoni, in whose right hand the Opalus Mortis (the gem of death) is lodged. All the death magic on Erebus draws power from this gem, as Arawn has withdrawn from Creation fully to prevent his precept from being channeled through him.




In Kael's D&D game, the brothers used their power to try to become a new generation of gods. (I believe that each gem's powers were greater than that of a god, so these mortals had a real shot.) The brother with the Air gem used it to send hue whirlwinds to destroy enemy armies. Kael's group never faced them directly. They did face Tuoni, who had captured the souls of all their vanquished enemies and unleashed them all on the group at once.

 

[orangelex44]

Yeah, that sounds familiar MC.

It does raise one big question, though - what happened to the gems? If even ONE could potentially make someone stronger than a god, shouldn't all three together let a nation challenge all the gods at once? Anyone that learned of them would move mountains to get one.

On a slightly different tack, the gems were taken from Agares, right? Does that make the brothers' actions Good, or Evil? Plus, shouldn't the loss of these imply that Agares and his Evil cohorts have lost the ability to have any effect on Air, Death, and Water?

And, just to be more persistantly annoying, how DOES magic work anyway? Isn't Ceridwen the Evil god of Magic - so why would she let Good civs use it? If all magic is linked to the gems that access the infinate plains of elements Agares stashed away, how do mere mortals utilize it?


This little spree of questions has been building for a while... I've done a little digging in the lore, but not enough to find out these particular answers... and I don't like not knowing things, comes with being an engineer.