Random Rants LXIX: Life is a Dismal Chore

[metatron]

It may well be arrogant, but being arrogant doesn't make it wrong. In many things actual experience is key to understanding. It is a claim parent make because it is generally true.

It is a claim that parents make because it is generally selfish.
And they are wrong.

Case in point:

Being annoyed by others only demonstrates one's own weakness and not that of others.

Euphemising damage and blaming it on the damaged party.
Sometimes mildly bad, sometimes horribly bad.
Virtually always wrong.

 

[Birdjaguar]

It is a claim that parents make because it is generally selfish.
And they are wrong.

Case in point:

Euphemising damage and blaming it at the damaged party.
Sometimes mildly bad, sometimes horribly bad.
Virtually always wrong.

Selfish? How so?

As to your case in point; that particular line is attributable to my interest in Buddhism. Before one criticizes others, look at yourself. Being annoyed at others is often just selfishness in another guise.

 

[metatron]

Selfish? How so?

It's convenient.
As a parent one can allways claim "it cannot be helped", when it perfectly can.

As to your case in point; that particular line is attributable to my interest in Buddhism. Before one criticizes others, look at yourself. Being annoyed at others is often just selfishness in another guise.

Noise is a serious matter. It is often speculated to be in micro-morts more significant than air polution in the developed world. Of course this includes for example noise caused by transportation and such, but commotion caused unnecessarily by humans themselves is a factor, be it loud children or the noise created by sports and various drunkard activity.
Mischaracterising that as an "annoyance" is morally dubious.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

@metatron:
Good rules of thumb:

Non parents/guardians cannot and do not know what it is like to have and raise kids.
Having been a kid only qualifies you to criticize your parents or guardians.
Little Fido and Fluffy, even if you dress them up and feed them with a spoon, do not qualify you to say you know what it is like to raise a child.

Wow. So you think I dress my cats up in costumes and feed them with a spoon, and what's next - are you going to post even more obnoxious things such as I only want fancy purebred cats and basically do the feline equivalent of the vapid women who carry miniature dogs around in their purses?

I let my cats be cats, as far as I can. When I had a house and back yard, they were allowed outside to do whatever cats do (yes, they were fixed so that's not what I'm talking about) - hunting birds or mice, sunning themselves, munching on grass, climbing trees... apartment living means I don't let them out the door, not even on the balcony. I don't let them make excessive noise, nor do they damage the carpets. They don't wear costumes, and they do eat cat food, out of cat dishes.


So having been a kid teaches that kid nothing about parenting? Really? How do you explain things like the cycle of violence, in which kids who were abused often become abusers themselves when they have kids? Some people manage to overcome that; I broke the cycle by deciding not to have kids. Hitting a kid when you get annoyed is not good parenting; I don't need to have had a child of my own to know that.

Some other things I learned: Conditioning a kid to believe something that could end up harming them either physically or psychologically is not a good thing to do. Physical and emotional abuse are not okay. Badmouthing the other parent in order to make yourself look good is not okay. Mocking your child in a mean-spirited way, or deliberately embarrassing them in front of the rest of the family (or alone, for that matter) is not okay. Doing things like these are not going to make the child love you or even respect you, even when decades have passed and the child is no longer a child.

Making a child afraid to fail is a really bad idea, because it sets them up for failure-avoidance (something I studied in my education courses when I was in the B.Ed. program in college). Some parents pretty much are all about perfection or as perfect as humanly possible - relentlessly criticizing what they think is wrong, but never praising what went right (I asked my grandfather about that one time - why he was so quick to jump on a mistake, but never praising when no mistakes happened... and he said, "Why should I, when it's what you were supposed to do anyway?"). It's not just me I'm referring to; I had a classmate who was in a panic over her math test; she'd "only" gotten 90+%, instead of 100%. When I told her I'd be ecstatic with the mark she did get, she snapped, "You wouldn't understand!". It wasn't until later that I put everything together; she had the sort of father who would have berated her over that 90+ mark because it hadn't been perfect.


As for guardians not knowing, how would you know? To the best of my knowledge your kids are your own biological offspring, and you didn't adopt any. You do realize that some people end up with guardianship of kids when the kids are very young, possibly babies, right? Are they disqualified from understanding what it's like to raise a child because they're not the kid's biological parent? Is this something you'd say to an adoptive parent's face?

Being annoyed by others only demonstrates one's own weakness and not that of others.

Shall I remind you of that for every time you've ever made a point of letting me know how annoyed you are with something I've said or done on this forum?

In the situation I'm talking about - EXCESSIVE NOISE OR OTHER BEHAVIOR THAT IS AGAINST THE RULES - I have a right to be annoyed, and the right to want the offenders to stop breaking the rules. The fact that they have offspring doesn't entitle them to allow said offspring to annoy the other tenants, nor does it mean the other tenants are "weak" for being annoyed.


So Buddhism teaches you to blame the victim? How nice. It's a good thing you don't counsel people for a living.

 

[Birdjaguar]

It's convenient.
As a parent one can allways claim "it cannot be helped", when it perfectly can.

Noise is a serious matter. It is often speculated to be in micro-morts more significant than air polution in the developed world. Of course this includes for example noise caused by transportation and such, but commotion caused unnecessarily by humans themselves is a factor, be it loud children or the noise created by sports and various drunkard activity.
Mischaracterising that as an "annoyance" is morally dubious.

I have not said anything about the parenting side. Of course there is good parenting and bad parenting. My point is that non parents cannot know what the parenting experience is. One can watch and observe as an outsider and you can draw "objective" conclusions, but those conclusions are not based on what the actual parent is experiencing. Anthropologists face the same problem when studying primitive people. They can watch and learn and be objective or they can join the tribe, lose their objectivity and get much closer to the actual experience of being a tribal member.

Noise can be a serious matter and there is parent responsibility/culpability involved if kids are excessively noisy. But also, there are also folks who object to any interference in their daily routines and selfishly demand that others adhere to the silence or or other needs they have. They freely put what they want over and above whatever is going on in other peoples' lives. It's quite common and you can see in lots of places. Who's to blame? That is the wrong question.

 

[Commodore]

Parents get catered to at every turn;

And they deserve to be. Parents have ensured the continued survival of the species by producing another generation of humans. That alone entitles them to better treatment than people who don't have kids.

So unless Valka volunteers evidence contradicting her position i am presuming she is correct

And my experience in these matters makes me assume she's blowing it way out of proportion. People who don't have kids tend to be extremely intolerant of childish behavior, especially older people that never had children. So my experience tells me that Valka is just getting annoyed at kids being kids.

I've also lived around people who had children who just had no limit, and where shouting and bawling was simply their usual way of speaking, and the parents just let them do all that without providing guidance.

Okay, but did you know that family's exact situation though? Because if you didn't, then you have no right to judge them. Maybe their child had some developmental issue that causes them to act that way. If that's the case, then there's really nothing the parents can do about it. I'm not saying that is always the case, my point is that if you aren't 100% "in the know" of a given family's situation, then you are in no position to pass judgement on the quality of the parenting in that family. That's something you non-parents just don't seem to understand.

I don't know from where come this common idea that the person disturbing the others is in the right and the person disturbed is the one to get out, but it's a weird reasoning

It's all about majority rules. If there are five apartments and four of them contain apartments with "annoying" children and there is only one apartment with some childless busybody who is annoyed, then it's the childless busybody that has to adjust their lifestyle to conform with the majority, not the other way around. Also, no one is forcing you to live where you live. If conditions at your current place of residence are considered unbearable, then move somewhere else. It's really that simple. Instead of causing conflict and bad blood, go find a community where the majority of the residents live a similar lifestyle to your own. If children annoy you, then it really is your fault if you move into a neighborhood or apartment complex where the majority of residents have children.

and I remember you live into a neighbourhood which is specifically about kicking out people who are an annoyance, so I'm wondering why you suddendly switch side in this

I haven't switched sides on this at all. If it is adults making noise and being annoying, I'll report them in a heartbeat and get them evicted because adults should have the good sense and manners to be considerate of their fellow residents. Especially residents with children, since children tend to go to sleep earlier. If it's another family with children, I let it slide because I understand how hard it is to keep kids quiet, especially in an apartment building that has walls with almost zero soundproofing or noise reduction capability.

Of course now that I think about it, maybe we should start having government mandated segregation of families with children and childless individuals or couples. I'm thinking of the latter being banned, by law, from renting or owning a house (for use as a personal residence, I'm okay with childless people owning a house for the purpose of renting it out as a landlord) and being relegated to apartments since they don't really have a need for all that extra space that comes with a house. That way, all the families with children will have their own houses with yards that children can play in and be as loud as they want while you childless people can live in the peace and quiet of your apartment complexes.

 

[Akka]

Non parents/guardians cannot and do not know what it is like to have and raise kids.
Having been a kid only qualifies you to criticize your parents or guardians.

90 %+ of adults are parents. Don't act or pretend like if it's some elite special situation. Most of the people annoyed by the noise of badly-behaved brat are parents too.

Being annoyed by others only demonstrates one's own weakness and not that of others.

That's one of the most stupid affirmation I've ever seen posted. Half of the laws in existence and 95 % of the social mores are about how to behave not to annoy others.

Noise can be a serious matter and there is parent responsibility/culpability involved if kids are excessively noisy. But also, there are also folks who object to any interference in their daily routines and selfishly demand that others adhere to the silence or or other needs they have. They freely put what they want over and above whatever is going on in other peoples' lives. It's quite common and you can see in lots of places. Who's to blame? That is the wrong question.

So it's selfish to ask others not to intrude the privacy of your home, but it's not selfish to do so ?
What kind of twisted "logic" is that ?
"who's to blame" is pretty obvious : one doesn't intrude on your home, the other does.

 

[Snerk]

Good rules of thumb:

Non parents/guardians cannot and do not know what it is like to have and raise kids.
Having been a kid only qualifies you to criticize your parents or guardians.

Yeah but if I see a helicopter in a tree..

NSFW language

 

[Akka]

Okay, but did you know that family's exact situation though? Because if you didn't, then you have no right to judge them.

I don't know, I don't care and I have the right to judge the consequences. Their hypothetical problems can certainly give more leniency, but they don't make suddendly immune from their responsabilities. If your kid is mentally impaired, you take care he doesn't hurt other kids because he doesn't realize his strength for example - it's the same if he's noisy, you try to find way to manage it. You don't let him dismember the neighbour's little girl while saying "well, he doesn't know what he's doing !".
Also, let's not kid ourselves : 99 % of the time, it's nothing to do with some sort of exceptionnal situation, but just parents not caring about neighbours.

It's all about majority rules.

That's oversimplification. Certainly the majority influence somewhat, but they don't make up new societal rules or civil laws. You don't become allowed to party all night just because a bunch of students arrived recently and they are the majority. People having peace in their home is a hard rule, and shouldn't be up to who decide to live in a place. It's still a common civil society and displacing people through being a jerk to them is not acceptable.

If children annoy you, then it really is your fault if you move into a neighborhood or apartment complex where the majority of residents have children.

And if you were there first and then a bunch of badly-behaved brats move in ?

I haven't switched sides on this at all. If it is adults making noise and being annoying, I'll report them in a heartbeat and get them evicted because adults should have the good sense and manners to be considerate of their fellow residents. Especially residents with children, since children tend to go to sleep earlier. If it's another family with children, I let it slide because I understand how hard it is to keep kids quiet, especially in an apartment building that has walls with almost zero soundproofing or noise reduction capability.

Of course I'm willing to let slide MORE when it's a child than when it's an adult.
It doesn't mean I'm willing to let slide ANYTHING. A child being given more leniency as a whole is fine. A child not being given boundaries and not made to obey rules and allowed to bawl all day is not.

Of course now that I think about it, maybe we should start having government mandated segregation of families with children and childless individuals or couples. I'm thinking of the latter being banned, by law, from renting or owning a house (for use as a personal residence, I'm okay with childless people owning a house for the purpose of renting it out as a landlord) and being relegated to apartments since they don't really have a need for all that extra space that comes with a house. That way, all the families with children will have their own houses with yards that children can play in and be as loud as they want while you childless people can live in the peace and quiet of your apartment complexes.

Let's go hyperbole the other way : children don't know better, we should not punish them if they kill people, after all they didn't realize what they were doing !

 

[metatron]

My point is that non parents cannot know what the parenting experience is.

That's a truism and rather not the point.
The excuse - you didn't exactly affirm that, but still - usually comes down "being a parent is tough, you can't possibly appreciate that".
The latter part is untrue and i could go into a long thing here about the difference between empathy and compassion vis a vis contemporary American pathology, but i suppose we should start having the thread going its merry way again.
Anyway... by this logic you should be allowed to transgress against all morals and norms:
Speed! Litter! You have it tough enough, so why should these arbitrary rules apply to you.
The consequences of your behavior don't affect me. I got Buddhism.

And they deserve to be. Parents have ensured the continued survival of the species by producing another generation of humans. That alone entitles them to better treatment than people who don't have kids.

No. I rest on my previous remarks on that subject:
Everything would be more chill with fewer people on the planet.
Our countries specifically don't need more people either. There are literally people falling from the sky in trying to get to here.
The main reason why there are so many people on the planet is a) the way warfare worked in the 19th and early 20th century and b) everybody dropped the ball on birth control.
And people become parents for selfish reasons, not to help out their homeland or secure species survival.

 

[Samson]

And they deserve to be. Parents have ensured the continued survival of the species by producing another generation of humans. That alone entitles them to better treatment than people who don't have kids.

Having children is the most environmentally damaging thing that most people do. Parents get FAR more back from their tax contribution than non-parents. That entitles parents to worse treatment than people who don't have kids.

Not really, I think both groups deserve respectful treatment, but I do think parents should understand that their self-validation / recession proof retirement fund / biological imperative comes with significant societal cost that is born by more than just them.

 

[Takhisis]

Everyone has the right to be wrong.

I'll grant you that, since this the Internet.

There are areas where actual experience is what counts and intellect is hardly useful.

Well, since you'll never have had the experience of having brought up my children, I assume you will never criticise me for how I raise them. Right?

 

[Kyriakos]

Translating an announcement of a fellow writer, i saw on FB: (it is an invitation to a book presentation, which starts with) "Do not come for me, but for the heroes of my stories [...]".

Dammit.

 

[Sommerswerd]

This is highly dubious.Children being loud is not anti-proportional to discipline. If anything it is proportional (for the very reason you mentioned among others).Also: The very point of raising a child well is that their behavior is socially useful precisely when you are not around to check.

What's dubious? Everything I said? What are you basing that on? Parenting experience, pure conjecture, or something else? No big deal, I'm just curious where you're coming from.

In any case, it seems like you interpreted me as saying that its either/or... I'm not saying that. What I am saying, is that raising kids requires a delicate balance, so I have some sympathy for the struggles people go through in seeking that balance. Time and resources are limited obviously, and parents try to do the best they can with what they have.

I just want them to not run in the hallway or scream in the hallway or outside my door. I'm not suggesting my neighbors raise them like they're in the army
...
The guy to the left is so quiet, it's like he's not even there. It's the people across the hall that annoy me

I know. That was just me presenting the spectrum (although I can't call it hyperbole exactly, because sadly, some parents actually do raise their kids like they're in the army). Ultimately though, I don't think most people set out to intentionally raise their children in a manner that will make them annoying to others. But then again, teaching them not to annoy others is just one of many things that get ranked on a priority list for a parent. Some parents can get around to it, others can't (or don't) for whatever reason.

Interesting comment about authority figures, though. I was raised - programmed, really - to believe that anyone older than me was automatically right, and I had to obey them. Thing is, my family didn't explain that this meant adults, and not older kids. And when it finally did start to occur to me that older people weren't always right... the family fights started. That's why I've made the point here that I've "been there, done that" regarding being a doormat - and I won't do it anymore. As for people complimenting you on your kids' behavior, just say "thank you." Whatever their reasons are for saying it, it's not going to help if you start wondering if the unsaid part of that is that they think black kids are natural brats, which is why they're so surprised that your kids know how to behave like civilized people. If they think that, it's a defect in their character and therefore it's their problem. From what you've said about your kids here and there in OT, it looks like you're doing the parenthood thing the right way.

Thank you.

So basically you were complete dicks and the lesson is that we should let people be dicks because if not they become ever more dickish ?

No, but your characterization is a fair albeit incorrect interpretation.

I think Sommerswerd's point is closer to ‘be careful, the others might just choose to up the ante’.

Yes.

 

[Akka]

No, but your characterization is a fair albeit incorrect interpretation.

You were blasting noise without regard for your neighbours. Then once they managed (admitedly in a passive-aggressive way) to convey their displeasure, you not only failed to correct your behaviour, but even increased it, and in a completely, ridiculously overboard way (several days of loud music, seriously ?).
I don't really see how my interpretation is incorrect even if it wasn't the actual point you were trying to convey.

Yes.

I'm painfully aware of that. The prisoner's dilemma means that if everyone just weren't dick toward each others, everyone would gain. But sadly, just like everywhere, a few jerks can ruins it for everyone.

Thing is, both can play this game, and while the victim knows who is making noise, the noise-maker has the whole neighbourhood as suspects unless the victim comes and purposedly makes himself known.

 

[metatron]

What's dubious? Everything I said? What are you basing that on? Parenting experience, pure conjecture, or something else? No big deal, I'm just curious where you're coming from.

In any case, it seems like you interpreted me as saying that its either/or... I'm not saying that. What I am saying, is that raising kids requires a delicate balance, so I have some sympathy for the struggles people go through in seeking that balance. Time and resources are limited obviously, and parents try to do the best they can with what they have.

Oh, my peeve there was that the the common view of discipline in parenting is not supported all that well by scientific research and that the framework you appeared to set your argument in (i may have misunderstood you) is consequently inappropriate in that these are not some corresponding columns.
Being taught not to be loud in Valka's hallway doesn't have to detract from being, what was it, "inquisitive and independent".
In retrospect - and from the way i know you - i suspect we actually agree on this and merely talked past each other.
Then the time investment that you mentioned comes into focus, and this is - i suppose - where Valka's and my gripe rests: If it was annoying to the parents themselves the chance that they would have mustered the necessary energy and time would be... well, bigger at least.

Btw: I have taken about 4 swings allready trying to write a decent comment on that restaurant business you mentioned. Thrown all drafts out, largely because i can't see how i could write anything that you don't allready know.
Obviously it's a fairly large aggression (nothing "micro" about it) and they are out of line.
Probably they mean well, for whatever little that is worth.

 

[Lexicus]

Being annoyed by others only demonstrates one's own weakness and not that of others.

Ah, see, this is a sentiment that sounds so good but really translates as: "I have no obligation to attempt to be nice to people because if I offend/annoy them, it's their fault. I refuse to accept any responsibility for my poor behavior."

 

[Lohrenswald]

Ah, see, this is a sentiment that sounds so good but really translates as: "I have no obligation to attempt to be nice to people because if I offend/annoy them, it's their fault. I refuse to accept any responsibility for my poor behavior."

might as well go around and asking people if you triggered them

 

[Kyriakos]

Ah, see, this is a sentiment that sounds so good but really translates as: "I have no obligation to attempt to be nice to people because if I offend/annoy them, it's their fault. I refuse to accept any responsibility for my poor behavior."

It is impossible to not annoy anyone, though, even if one doesn't intend to. So, a few steps later, this turns into a discussion of what can be reasonably argued to be annoying, and one should keep in mind that if it isn't illegal it is difficult to force anyone to alter anything.

 

[Akka]

It is impossible to not annoy anyone, though, even if one doesn't intend to. So, a few steps later, this turns into a discussion of what can be reasonably argued to be annoying, and one should keep in mind that if it isn't illegal it is difficult to force anyone to alter anything.

That's what social mores and politeness are about : unwritten rules that are not about "legality" but "how you behave in your society" (and can often be actually much more powerful than laws).