Random Rants ': No, YOUR thread titles suck!

[Kyriakos]

Do you mean that we have a lot of people convinced that the ancient Greeks invented thinking and that Plato and Aristotle must have been brilliant and right because that's what we're taught? Because that's certainly the case.

It's all historical falcification, mang, to take away the achievements of druids and witch-doctors in Africa and barbeurope. Damned powers that be..

 

[Lexicus]

Do you mean that we have a lot of people convinced that the ancient Greeks invented thinking and that Plato and Aristotle must have been brilliant and right because that's what we're taught? Because that's certainly the case.

Not exactly. Just that a great deal of Western political thought is somehow a response to Aristotle and Plato. At least that's how I understood it. One doesn't need a high opinion of either figure to understand this.

 

[Phrossack]

Not exactly. Just that a great deal of Western political thought is somehow a response to Aristotle and Plato. At least that's how I understood it. One doesn't need a high opinion of either figure to understand this.

Eh, I disagree. For example, the American system of government descends directly from the English government systems of the 17th and 18th centuries, which were gradual evolutions of medieval and post-Roman government systems. The founding fathers of America like Jefferson were often classics buffs who followed the fashion of drawing inspiration from the ancient Greeks, but what they made was directly drawn from an evolution of medieval English government. Democracy was outright killed off in Greece in ancient times, and English and American systems are the result of gradual enfranchisement working its way from aristocrats downwards.

 

[The_J]

Do you mean that we have a lot of people convinced that the ancient Greeks invented thinking and that Plato and Aristotle must have been brilliant and right because that's what we're taught? Because that's certainly the case.

When our greek guys around, we actually joke that the Greeks invented everything.
Except prostitution (that's older), and capitalism (because a) that makes a good joke, and b) according to wiki it's true, was invented in Amsterdam).

 

[Phrossack]

When our greek guys around, we actually joke that the Greeks invented everything.
Except prostitution (that's older), and capitalism (because a) that makes a good joke, and b) according to wiki it's true, was invented in Amsterdam).

As we can see, Greeks certainly enjoy believing that.

 

[Lexicus]

Eh, I disagree. For example, the American system of government descends directly from the English government systems of the 17th and 18th centuries, which were gradual evolutions of medieval and post-Roman government systems. The founding fathers of America like Jefferson were often classics buffs who followed the fashion of drawing inspiration from the ancient Greeks, but what they made was directly drawn from an evolution of medieval English government. Democracy was outright killed off in Greece in ancient times, and English and American systems are the result of gradual enfranchisement working its way from aristocrats downwards.

The idea that medieval European governing institutions owe nothing to Aristotle and Plato is plainly false.
I'm not sure what democracy has to do with the point here; democracy in ancient Greece bears little resemblance to what we now think of as democracy and neither Plato nor Aristotle were big fans of it.

 

[Phrossack]

The idea that medieval European governing institutions owe nothing to Aristotle and Plato is plainly false.

No, it isn't.

 

[Traitorfish]

It may be the case that Plato and Aristotle exercised some influence over Medieval and early modern European political institutions, but that isn't to say they exercised influence over the institutions which are credited to them. As Phrossack said, European and American legislative systems were derived from institutions with little Classical ancestry or even, really, precedent. That some European commentators may have belated attempted to analyse or articulate these systems in reference to Classical thought doesn't imply any actual Classical heritage.

 

[Lohrenswald]

I wasn't talking about politics

 

[Lexicus]

That some European commentators may have belated attempted to analyse or articulate these systems in reference to Classical thought doesn't imply any actual Classical heritage.

I was talking about political theory initially - the way that Westerners have thought about and described their political institutions.
I think there is probably more similarity between modern 'bourgeois' democracy and Classical politics than you're making allowance for, but that's not what I was originally talking about.

 

[gay_Aleks]

I wasn't talking about politics

as a non-political discussion on OT advances, the chances of it turning into such approaches 1. Now we just need to yell for 5 pages about what socialism is, mostly how you're wrong and I am right, and we'll reach Peak OT.

 

[Kyriakos]

It may be the case that Plato and Aristotle exercised some influence over Medieval and early modern European political institutions, but that isn't to say they exercised influence over the institutions which are credited to them. As Phrossack said, European and American legislative systems were derived from institutions with little Classical ancestry or even, really, precedent. That some European commentators may have belated attempted to analyse or articulate these systems in reference to Classical thought doesn't imply any actual Classical heritage.

As long as at least you mean institutions without a suspiciously greek name

Words and etymology do matter. Eg the term 'republic' is latin, and means something very different etymologically from 'democratia'; the latter signifies power of the citizens (the demos), the former a "public thing". A park is also a public thing, yet most mere citizens don't take part in regulating it.

 

[Traitorfish]

I was talking about political theory initially - the way that Westerners have thought about and described their political institutions.

Are most Europeans before the twentieth century likely to have heard of Aristotle?

 

[The_J]

Rant: Got choked a bit hard during the MMA training, now I have problems swallowing (only minor, but still annoying).

 

[Lexicus]

Are most Europeans before the twentieth century likely to have heard of Aristotle?

Are most Europeans before the twentieth century (and after it, come to that) likely to have engaged in political theorizing?

 

[Arakhor]

Are most Europeans before the twentieth century likely to have heard of Aristotle?

I'd have thought that most of the ruling classes would have done, yes.

 

[Traitorfish]

Are most Europeans before the twentieth century (and after it, come to that) likely to have engaged in political theorizing?

To an extent. People had an idea of things worked, how things had worked in the past, and how they wanted things to work in the future. It may not have been highly theoretically-developed, but it probably had more of an impact on how Western institutions actually developed than any number of meditations on Aristotle.

I'd have thought that most of the ruling classes would have done, yes.

Half a percent of the population is not a political society, even when the half-percent would like it to be.

 

[choxorn]

Do you mean that we have a lot of people convinced that the ancient Greeks invented thinking and that Plato and Aristotle must have been brilliant and right because that's what we're taught? Because that's certainly the case.

It was definitely even more the case in the past. For thousands of years Europeans so highly regarded the old Greek thinkers that they figured Aristole, Plato, and Socrates must have been right about everything, even though they generally just tried to think about things without seeing if any of the things they were saying were actually accurate. Then the Renaissance happened, and people like Copernicus and Galileo and Newton started actually empirically testing their theories, and realized that no, Earth isn't the center of the Universe, that no, heavier objects don't fall faster, that, well, they were wrong about quite a few things.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Rant: so I wanted to go to a certain club today at the high school after asking my JTE when and where it was. However I didn't think it was the students club, but rather a community club and so I went dressed in casual workout clothes (or what I own that passes as workout clothes). But walking to the dojo I saw students all dressed up in their formal school wear and I was super schluppy by comparison and I got super worried about going to the high school not dressed formally since I am a teacher and I bailed on going.

Now I'm also worried because I did tell my JTE that I'd be there but I don't even know if she went, and I'm also kicking myself for chickening out and bailing on something when that completely goes against my MO that I've been operating under here in Japan which is to go head first into everything.

Also I think I'm getting turned off the sport and my desire to do it because going to the school club on weekdays is awkward and the students don't like to speak English or engage with me. I want to make of work because it let's me connect with one of my coworkers but I feel no motivation for some reason and I think that played a part in bailing today. Dammit this sucks.

 

[Takhisis]

Man, you're in Japan and they haven't kicked you out nor sent a Mazinger-like Giant Death Robot after you. You're doing fine.