Random Raves ΜΔ: Crate Expectations

[aimeeandbeatles]

Is it a probaly that is little that not worry.

EDIT: I don't know what happened here, or even what I was trying to say. I guess I forgot how to language.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

All I'm saying is that there are more important things to get into a tizzy about.

Uh-huh.

Fortunately, we live in a society where one person doesn't get to dictate what other people find bothersome and rude.

 

[Silurian]

Uh-huh.

Fortunately, we live in a society where one person doesn't get to dictate what other people find bothersome and rude.

So Valka does not mind people who call each other guys because one person doesn't get to dictate what other people find bothersome and rude

It's just a term. "You guys" is synonymous with "You people", or "You group of individuals". For me at has no more meaning than that. It doesn't make me feel marginalized at all.

 

[cardgame]

rave: made it to the top 4,000 players on Superflight's leaderboard

 

[MaryKB]

Is it a probaly that is little that not worry.

EDIT: I don't know what happened here, or even what I was trying to say. I guess I forgot how to language.

I think I know what you're trying to say , and I understand in the grand scheme of things it's not huge, and that's why I sort of just roll my eyes silently when it happens, but I also completely understand @Valka D'Ur's point of view. I believe an appropriate term might be "microaggression", it's something how by itself may not seem like such a big deal, but when you add it up with everything else, you can really start to feel a toll from it.

For me, it makes me feel like men are the "default", and someone just assumes he's talking to other men. Maybe it's partly because of my experiences at work: I work in a very male-dominated field, and very often I feel like a bit of an outsider. People are polite enough to me, but even with everything I've done I still quite often feel like I'm not completely respected, because I'm not "one of them". Boys' Club culture is a real thing, and using male-specific language to refer to everyone sort of can make you feel (especially over time) that you're expected to be male, and you're not normal or really part of the group if you're not. And you can see this in a lot of other places too, like discussions about hiring practices for entertainment, people still seem to feel how men should be the default, and looking to other demographics for roles and such is violating some sort of social norm, you know what I mean? Like you can still all the time see people saying if someone's being hired because she's not a man it's because of a "quota", because if you're hiring "the best people" that's going to always be white men.

I'm so sorry, I didn't want to make any kind of a stink, I'm just expressing my point of view, and I felt it's rather dismissive of Valka's feelings when she has a very legitimate point, and I feel it's bothersome when one of us is talked down to when raising a very legitimate gender concern. I don't feel it's such an effort to say "you all" instead of "you guys", or "friends" instead of "dudes" or "fellas", but can you ask yourself why you object so much to using gender-neutral words when it means so much to someone who's negatively affected?

Well anyway, I'm sorry, my rave for today is I'm having lovely success with my new diet of moving away from mammal meat. I've substituted my regular sausage for turkey sausage, and today was my first day trying it, and it was delicious! I think I may even like it better than the pork sausage I used to eat, and it has about 1/3rd of the calories too!

 

[Silurian]

@MaryKB the only people I have heard calling themselves "guys" recently are women. Men, were I live in the UK, don't seem to call themselves guys much.
I think people should feel free to call themselves what they want as long as they don't offend the children.

 

[MaryKB]

But we're not talking about what people call themselves, we're talking about what people call someone else? Would you like me to call you something you didn't like? How would you feel if I called you something that bothered you, and when you asked me kindly if I'd change, I didn't just tell you to deal with it, but I told you you're wrong for how you feel? Why do you have such a problem with not using a male-gender word when addressing women who've asked you to stop?

I also very much disagree with your logic, I feel that's very similar to saying "I know African Americans who voted for Donald Trump, so that means he's not racist."

 

[cardgame]

The point is that we do see it as gender-neutral so being told that we must instead be gender specific can be (very mildly) abrasive.

 

[Silurian]

But we're not talking about what people call themselves, we're talking about what people call someone else? Would you like me to call you something you didn't like? How would you feel if I called you something that bothered you, and when you asked me kindly if I'd change, I didn't just tell you to deal with it, but I told you you're wrong for how you feel? Why do you have such a problem with not using a male-gender word when addressing women who've asked you to stop?

I also very much disagree with your logic, I feel that's very similar to saying "I know African Americans who voted for Donald Trump, so that means he's not racist."

Synsensa posted but he did not reply to anyone. The last few people who posted were male.

Fellas.

Ignore this butter and syrup nonsense.

Dutch pancakes. Line the center with powdered sugar. Roll it up. Enjoy. You can even put fruit in it.

You'll never look back.

Now if I a with a group of people and the last to to speak were men I may say "listen gents may I add this...". Just as if the last people to speak were women "listen ladies may I add this...". I would think a women or man who then jumped in afterwards and said do not call me a gent or lady after I had spoken as a bit strange. I would think it was even stranger if they piped up ten minutes later.

As I stated the only people I have heard calling women guys are women. I do not call women guys.I don't see why I should stop women calling other women guys, it seems a bit strange to me but I am not offended by it. I agree that some women are offended by being called guys but I do not see why they should be offended by men being called guys or fellas just because they are in the same place. I was in the pub a few weeks ago with some people from work, the women who was buying the drinks turned to her female friends and asked "what do you guys want to drink" then she said "what do you want Silurian". Should I be offended that she does not consider me a guy, does she think I am not a man, or does she mean her friends when referring to "you guys".

 

[MaryKB]

The point is that we do see it as gender-neutral so being told that we must instead be gender specific can be (very mildly) abrasive.

"Guy" and "fella/fellow" aren't gender-neutral words, those are very clear synonyms for "man", but I feel everyone's ignoring my point about how men are viewed as default, and women are a sort of subset of men, and that's kind of what I've been saying that you're sort of emphasizing?

Synsensa posted but he did not reply to anyone. The last few people who posted were male.

Ummm ... I was part of this conversation about pancakes when he first called us all "fellas", which was what Valka first spoke up about, I mean I had posted just a few posts above him, and I even specifically mentioned him in my post, and I was definitely part of this whole "pancakes and syrup" conversation, or do you feel I'm not really a valid participant because of my sex? Oh dear, I know I'm sounding much more hostile towards you than I mean to be, but I'm trying to illustrate my point, I have to deal with those kinds of attitudes all the time by people who really are sexist, and I'm trying to help you see how I feel.

Like, using your example, if you're at a meeting where both men and women are talking, would you address your crowd "Gentlemen, ... "? Or would you acknowledge women are present too?

You haven't only heard women calling women guys ... I mean can you go back a few pages in this conversation? You're not even making sense to me.

I didn't create any stink about this, because I know @Synsensa didn't mean harm, but Valka is completely right, and I'm more upset about her being talked down to about this. I feel a proper response would've been "I'm sorry, I did use gender-exclusive language, I didn't mean it like that and I'll try better going forward", but no, instead people have to tell her how she and I really are "guys" and "fellas" and to just get used to male-normative language.

I'm really so terribly confused by all this doubling-down, I mean those words are very clearly male (whatever anyone might try to say), and some women say we don't like being addressed as guys, so why is this such a huge problem for people to just be courteous?

 

[Kyriakos]

Way too usacentric. British say m8 or other provincialisms even less savoury. And some of us arent in the anglosphere at all

 

[JohannaK]

I get Mary and Valka, especially because Catalan and Spanish words are clearly gendered and masculin is also the neutral term, and thus there is this discussion going on.

On the other hand I have been abroad and I am friends with English people of both sexes and guys seem to be the uncontroversial neutral used by people of both genders, and non-binary too.

Which is funny because when I was younger, and precisely because my mother tongues are so markedly gendered, I was very conscious and careful about using it.

 

[Synobun]

My language use aligns pretty well with the standards of later Milliennials and Gen Z. The reason I haven't been involved in this conversation is because it was in one of the first posts responding to the term use that mentioned generational differences. I'm being specifically called out now, though.

I can understand how names can be used as weapons but that isn't what I'm offering so it isn't something I feel the need to defend myself against. I'm comfortable being branded a sexist engaging in microaggressions because I use "fellas". Go wild.

 

[The_J]

I wasn't even aware that fellas/fellows is not a gender neutral term .

 

[Valka D'Ur]

So Valka does not mind people who call each other guys because one person doesn't get to dictate what other people find bothersome and rude

If the people in your group don't mind being called "guys" even if some or all are women, that's their decision. But I know now for a fact that there are at least three female OT regulars who don't like being addressed as though they're male (obviously Mary and I are two of them, but I would assume there are people here who remember Aimee's frustration with this and she put it into her signature line: "Poster is female" after she got tired of correcting people).

I think I know what you're trying to say , and I understand in the grand scheme of things it's not huge, and that's why I sort of just roll my eyes silently when it happens, but I also completely understand @Valka D'Ur's point of view. I believe an appropriate term might be "microaggression", it's something how by itself may not seem like such a big deal, but when you add it up with everything else, you can really start to feel a toll from it.

For me, it makes me feel like men are the "default", and someone just assumes he's talking to other men. Maybe it's partly because of my experiences at work: I work in a very male-dominated field, and very often I feel like a bit of an outsider. People are polite enough to me, but even with everything I've done I still quite often feel like I'm not completely respected, because I'm not "one of them". Boys' Club culture is a real thing, and using male-specific language to refer to everyone sort of can make you feel (especially over time) that you're expected to be male, and you're not normal or really part of the group if you're not. And you can see this in a lot of other places too, like discussions about hiring practices for entertainment, people still seem to feel how men should be the default, and looking to other demographics for roles and such is violating some sort of social norm, you know what I mean? Like you can still all the time see people saying if someone's being hired because she's not a man it's because of a "quota", because if you're hiring "the best people" that's going to always be white men.

I'm so sorry, I didn't want to make any kind of a stink, I'm just expressing my point of view, and I felt it's rather dismissive of Valka's feelings when she has a very legitimate point, and I feel it's bothersome when one of us is talked down to when raising a very legitimate gender concern. I don't feel it's such an effort to say "you all" instead of "you guys", or "friends" instead of "dudes" or "fellas", but can you ask yourself why you object so much to using gender-neutral words when it means so much to someone who's negatively affected?

Some people make a point of being dismissive, as in "if it's not a problem for me, it's not a problem for you."

The point is that we do see it as gender-neutral so being told that we must instead be gender specific can be (very mildly) abrasive.

Is it that hard to refrain from calling someone "dude" or "guy" or "fella" if they've stated they don't like it? I realize that online personas are sometimes confusing, with odd usernames or opposite-sex avatars. But by now only a brand-new member has any reason to be confused about whether or not I'm a woman (I've stated it often enough and it's always been my practice to tick the "F" option for profiles) since I've been here for nearly 14 years and have made multiple statements that I don't like to be addressed as though I'm male.

Now if I a with a group of people and the last to to speak were men I may say "listen gents may I add this...". Just as if the last people to speak were women "listen ladies may I add this...". I would think a women or man who then jumped in afterwards and said do not call me a gent or lady after I had spoken as a bit strange. I would think it was even stranger if they piped up ten minutes later.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

"Guy" and "fella/fellow" aren't gender-neutral words, those are very clear synonyms for "man", but I feel everyone's ignoring my point about how men are viewed as default, and women are a sort of subset of men, and that's kind of what I've been saying that you're sort of emphasizing?

I've used the phrase "fellow forum members" when I'm talking about everyone (back when I was trying to get Domination3000 to stop pontificating that all women who have abortions should be executed), but that's because saying "your forum colleagues" sounds really stuffy on a computer gaming forum.

But when it's me, just don't call me a "fella" or a "fellow." That's not what I am.

Like, using your example, if you're at a meeting where both men and women are talking, would you address your crowd "Gentlemen, ... "? Or would you acknowledge women are present too?

Excellent point.

You haven't only heard women calling women guys ... I mean can you go back a few pages in this conversation? You're not even making sense to me.

I didn't create any stink about this, because I know @Synsensa didn't mean harm, but Valka is completely right, and I'm more upset about her being talked down to about this. I feel a proper response would've been "I'm sorry, I did use gender-exclusive language, I didn't mean it like that and I'll try better going forward", but no, instead people have to tell her how she and I really are "guys" and "fellas" and to just get used to male-normative language.

I'm really so terribly confused by all this doubling-down, I mean those words are very clearly male (whatever anyone might try to say), and some women say we don't like being addressed as guys, so why is this such a huge problem for people to just be courteous?

Apparently we're infringing on their "freedom of speech."

I can understand how names can be used as weapons but that isn't what I'm offering so it isn't something I feel the need to defend myself against. I'm comfortable being branded a sexist engaging in microaggressions because I use "fellas". Go wild.

@Synsensa, you've been around long enough to know that my post was just a reminder that there are women in the conversation - women you know very well by now who are not into this "don't acknowledge the women" crap. You should know me enough by now to expect a scathing PM if I were extremely annoyed with you. No message has come, and therefore a reminder is just a reminder.

I can't and won't speak for @MaryKB, as her views may differ.

 

[Birdjaguar]

When I was growing up, before most of you were born, "guys" meant males. At that time "dolls" was the matching female term. Hence the musical "Guys and Dolls". but language is a dynamic thing and often changes faster than people can adapt to. Gender neutral terms began to creep into conversations in the 70s and 80s and accelerated in the 1990s. Words like chairperson and flight attendant showed up. New words like wimin were created to balance the scales a bit. And we saw females taking on traditional male appellations and insisting on being called actors, etc. Political correctness was born and as gender barriers broke down collective groupings have become more gender neutral: fellas, guys, britches, etc.

For many people giving up their old ways of seeing the world is difficult. That is/was the foundation of the Tea Party madness of a decade ago and much of Trump's popular appeal today. I still dislike much of today's pc language, but there is no stopping the changes and I am not offended. I still live in the past as far a language goes. I prefer newspapers to digital news articles. Oh well. Anyway, The future is gender neutral as those of you under 40 build a world that is better than ours was. Reactionaries who take offense at the future should be ignored. They can rant, but they are the past and while reactionary views can be a useful check on our plunge into the future, they should be adapting to you and not trying to get you to adapt to their out of date thinking. The future is coming and us old guys and dolls shouldn't take what you are doing to improve the world as a personal attack. We need to get over ourselves.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

When I was growing up, before most of you were born, "guys" meant males. At that time "dolls" was the matching female term. Hence the musical "Guys and Dolls".

The original stories the musical was based on took place in the 1920s. I know you're some years older than me, but I didn't realize you were that old! Even the musical premiered in the '50s. I worked on a production of it in 1980.

For anyone not familiar with it: Guys and Dolls

"Dolls" is not a term I remember used to refer to females, but then I grew up in the '60s and '70s. "Guys" was not a term used to refer to females.

New words like wimin were created to balance the scales a bit

I used to belong to a forum where there were very few women members (like about 3), and the admin referred to us as "my wimminz." I did not find that endearing at all.

Reactionaries who take offense at the future should be ignored. They can rant, but they are the past and while reactionary views can be a useful check on our plunge into the future, they should be adapting to you and not trying to get you to adapt to their out of date thinking. The future is coming and us old guys and dolls shouldn't take what you are doing to improve the world as a personal attack. We need to get over ourselves.

What a trainload of <nonsense>.

So @MaryKB and I are "reactionaries who should be ignored"? So it's "out of date thinking" to expect courtesy?

Btw, I am nobody's "doll."

 

[Birdjaguar]

The original stories the musical was based on took place in the 1920s. I know you're some years older than me, but I didn't realize you were that old! Even the musical premiered in the '50s. I worked on a production of it in 1980.

For anyone not familiar with it: Guys and Dolls

"Dolls" is not a term I remember used to refer to females, but then I grew up in the '60s and '70s. "Guys" was not a term used to refer to females.

I will be 71 quite soon. Male slang for females was a moving target all through the 50s and 60s (and probably for the past 500 years) and has continued since then. "Chicks" and "babes" were big then and "girls" is still hanging around as a substitute for grown women. I even hear "ladies" once in a while.

I used to belong to a forum where there were very few women members (like about 3), and the admin referred to us as "my wimminz." I did not find that endearing at a

What a trainload of <nonsense>.
So @MaryKB and I are "reactionaries who should be ignored"? So it's "out of date thinking" to expect courtesy?

Btw, I am nobody's "doll."

There are several forces at work here: your expectations in a general sense, your expectations of people you know, other people's views on what is correct and appropriate, and changes that are going global. Individual opinions about how things are changing are pretty relevant. You can of course demand from those you know personally that they adhere to your standards of language. This certainly stakes a claim that your interests are superior to theirs and that the past is some how superior to the future. Have at it. Ignoring the fact that you don't want to be a "guy" in the sense of "one of the guys" doesn't make make someone disrespectful. It just makes you demanding. Some folks may find that appeasing your self interest is worth it to maintain the relationship, but that is an individual decision. As is, you being offended when someone doesn't. Would you terminate a friendship with someone who refused to stop calling you a doll, but was otherwise a good friend, or is controlling their language sufficiently important that it outweighs friendship? It's a rhetorical question, you don't need to answer it.

You would only be a reactionary if you are sufficiently bothered by changes in language that you insist that your way is the only way. Reactionaries tend to want to stifle change and keep things as they have been. Not liking something is one thing, but making others change their behavior to meet your expectations is quite another. You get to decide what action is necessary on your part. What you do often determines the label that gets applied.

 

[Silurian]

"
You haven't only heard women calling women guys ... I mean can you go back a few pages in this conversation? You're not even making sense to me.

How do you know what I Have heard in real life,

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: Arguing in the Raves thread is quite the wrong place for it. Feel free to start a thread about gendered language, but please stop doing it here.