Rape & Human Evolution

[Narz]

That's closer to the sorts of characteristics academics use when talking about a tribe. But while I think it's uncontroversial to say that humans have spent a lot of time organized as tribes, I don't think you can say with certainty that humans have always been organized as tribes. There's a big of lag between anatomically modern humans evolving and say funeral rites becoming visible.

Well, that's because not much can be visible from 20+ thousands years ago.

It seems clear to me that as soon as human beings became human beings (mentally, emotionally, socially) that having tight-knit, organized teams/tribes would give an immediate & permanent edge over not having tribes. And I'm still a bit unclear on the difference between a troop/band (say of baboons) and a tribe. Seems that humanity is the difference.

 

[Narz]

First, rape is not sex with violence: it is violence with a sexual connotation.

Same thing.

Very disturbing. As much as it is without any foundation.

As the rest of your post is simply a number of assumptions lumped together with certain prejudices, I think we can conveniently skip that. It's certainly not material for any Reasonable Discussion.

First you say indeed, then you say I'm wrong & provide nothing of your own. I'm not sure you know what you are saying by "Reasonable Discussion".

 

[Narz]

In all honesty I'm not sure what the main question of this thread is.
Is it what role rape has played in human history? What role it plays today due to it's role in history? Or our biological, psychological or sociological tendencies and acceptance toward similarities to rape and being raped?

I just start threads & see where they go. Any or all of those could be subtopics.

 

[Masada]

Well, you put yourself in a scenario where you can get raped by your free will. Anything that happens happens to teach you something. Therefore you enjoy any experience life/karma throws at you.

You seem to be suggesting that most rape victims put themselves into situations where rape is likely. But I don't think that's an accurate view of rapes. As I noted, most rapes are perpetrated by someone the victim knows and in surroundings the victim is familiar with e.g. the home. That makes the idea that women are placing themselves into dangerous situations and then being raped, rather, well problematic. I can understand the impulse to accept that this is karma, I really do, but I'm just not sure if the assumptions underlying your analysis are correct.

I agree that if you should act, you should. But here - if a man wants to release his sexual tension then go ahead, help him. It's natural for men to have libido. Maybe you can talk the man into oral thing so you don't get touched that much. If you approach the situation in a loving, friendly manner, more opportunities to deal with it arise.

I think you'd run the risk of looking like you'd consented to the rape.

Well, that's because not much can be visible from 20+ thousands years ago.

I think there's enough to talk about basic stuff like funerary practices and so forth. It isn't like the whole period is a gigantic tabula rasa which we can project our biases onto.

It seems clear to me that as soon as human beings became human beings (mentally, emotionally, socially) that having tight-knit, organized teams/tribes would give an immediate & permanent edge over not having tribes. And I'm still a bit unclear on the difference between a troop/band (say of baboons) and a tribe. Seems that humanity is the difference.

I think it's fair to say that tribes offer certain advantages. But I don't think its necessarily the case that humans instantly organized themselves into tribes. I also find it strange that in an earlier post you listed the characteristics of a tribe which seemed quite reasonable to me but now claim for whatever reason to see nothing different between that and how a troop of baboons organize. It's doubly curious given that you seem to understand that Neanderthals who are quite obviously not human were probably capable of organizing and sustaining tribes.

 

[Borachio]

Is this thread about the Rape of the Sabine Women? Again?

Dem boitches had it comin'!

Or maybe they didn't really.

edit: hang on, I'm confused. Was Rome founded by Romulus, or by Aeneas? They can't both have founded Rome, surely. And where is Reme (founded by Remus, naturally)?

 

[luiz]

I can't help but think about the legacy of Genghis Khan and his army. They basically raped every woman they came across from China to Poland. What is the genetic footprint of that?

I've read somewhere that about 25% of mankind (or Asians, I'm not sure) descends from Genghis Khan. Not sure if there's any truth to that, but he certainly left a gigantic amount of descendants (the average guy living in that period has a lot of modern day descendants, but clearly the Great Khan was no average guy).

And you're right, some Slavs do have a vaguely "Asian" look. I don't know if that's from the Mongols or from earlier interactions, though (Huns, other Turkic tribes, etc).

 

[Agent327]

Same thing.

If you don't know the difference between consentual sex with violence and violence with a sexual connotation (rape), I'm afraid you have a screw loose...

First you say indeed, then you say I'm wrong & provide nothing of your own. I'm not sure you know what you are saying by "Reasonable Discussion".

Well, nothing that's going on here anyway:

A lot of mammals rape. Some species even have inverted spikes on their penises, so that once inserted it's stuck until the male has done his thing.
It is one of the natural urges that males, from species to species suffer from. Fortunately, morality and society is usually stronger than this urge. But when societies breaks down and mankind turns to its vilest, rape has unfortunately been common.

...

 

[BenitoChavez]

If you don't know the difference between consentual sex with violence and violence with a sexual connotation (rape), I'm afraid you have a screw loose...

Who consents to violent sex? I suppose there are masochists out there but that's a special case, which I wouldn't fault anyone for not immediately thinking of.


As for the issue of what constitutes a tribe, I'd say wikipedia has a good definition. I'd say this definition would apply to prehuman/animal groups.

A tribe is viewed, historically or developmentally, as a social group existing before the development of, or outside of, states. Many people used the term tribal society to refer to societies organized largely on the basis of social, especially familial, descent groups (see clan and kinship). A customary tribe in these terms is a face-to-face community, relatively bound by kinship relations, reciprocal exchange and strong ties to place.[1]

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edit: hang on, I'm confused. Was Rome founded by Romulus, or by Aeneas? They can't both have founded Rome, surely. And where is Reme (founded by Remus, naturally)?

Not sure how this is related to this thread but...

Some versions of the myth say that Romulus was descended from Aeneas. Also in a stunning plot twist, Remus was killed by Romulus! Dun dun dahhhhh!

 

[Narz]

If you don't know the difference between consentual sex with violence and violence with a sexual connotation (rape), I'm afraid you have a screw loose...

You didn't say anything about consent. Rape is sex procured with violence.

Well, nothing that's going on here anyway

IMO, it should be banworthy when people come to a thread, say "nothing going on here" and contribute nothing.

 

[Narz]

I think it's fair to say that tribes offer certain advantages. But I don't think its necessarily the case that humans instantly organized themselves into tribes.... It's doubly curious given that you seem to understand that Neanderthals who are quite obviously not human were probably capable of organizing and sustaining tribes.

It's not really curious, it's like our ancestors were tribal before they became human. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Farm Boy]

You didn't say anything about consent. Rape is sex procured with violence.

Violence isn't required, intercourse lacking consent qualifies. Intercourse with consent present also qualifies depending on the age of the participants. Intercourse with consent present may also qualify with substantial levels of duress regardless of the age of participants.

I'm not sure about rape being violence with sexual connotations though. Violence with sexual implications rather than the act itself by necessity? That doesn't seem to jive with my understanding of the ways that word is used. Could Jeelen perhaps clarify what he means for me?

 

[Borachio]

If you don't know the difference between consentual sex with violence and violence with a sexual connotation (rape), I'm afraid you have a screw loose...

Hang on. Consensual sex with violence? You mean a sort of boisterous, athletic sex? Or maybe sex that started out consensual and then the boisterousness got out of hand and morphed into violence?

Nope. I don't get it.

Violence is, by definition imo, nonconsensual*.

I guess I have a screw loose, then. Which isn't much of a surprise to me. But there you have it.

Rape, I think, is sex with violence or the threat of violence.

Neanderthals who are quite obviously not human

This is news to me.

The Neanderthals or Neandertals (/niˈændərˌθɔːlz/, /niˈændərˌtɔːlz/, /niˈændərˌtɑːlz/, /neɪˈɑːndərˌtɑːlz/ or /niˈændərθəlz/)[3] are an extinct species of human in the genus Homo, possibly a subspecies of Homo sapiens.[4] They are very closely related to modern humans,[5][6] differing in DNA by only 0.12%.

Seems I'm not alone in thinking they were quite obviously human. Don't some Europeans have (or are thought by some to have) Neanderthal ancestry?

*edit: hey, yeah. Boxing. Consensual violence, naturally. Yeah. I'm not really sure that qualifies as consensual. (Certainly not as consensual sex. Erm... usually. How about mud-wrestling?) But I guess that's a whole 'nother debate.

 

[Narz]

Violence isn't required, intercourse lacking consent qualifies.

I would say that intercourse lacking consent is an assault & therefore violent. Putting your body parts on another without their permission is assault.

 

[BenitoChavez]

Violence isn't required, intercourse lacking consent qualifies. Intercourse with consent present also qualifies depending on the age of the participants. Intercourse with consent present may also qualify with substantial levels of duress regardless of the age of participants.

I'd argue that there is a sort of emotional violence that is committed upon the victim. Physical violence (which is what I assume you're talking about) isn't required but is common.

 

[Farm Boy]

I'd argue that there is a sort of emotional violence that is committed upon the victim. Physical violence (which is what I assume you're talking about) isn't required but is common.

I'm simply not sure that once we allow for the act to be statutory on basis of age that violence is a strict requirement. Gross stupidity or ineptitude can qualify.

I'm not actually very certain here, just feeling it out. I could probably be convinced otherwise.

 

[Angst]

This just shows the moral vacuum evolution leaves behind,.

Uhm what

 

[Senethro]

Uhm what

hes a creationist who apparently thrives by dropping one-liner turds of posts into threads then never replying

 

[Masada]

This is news to me.

Yeah, fair call. I should have used Homo sapiens.

It's not really curious, it's like our ancestors were tribal before they became human. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Well, no we don't. My view is rather more consistent with academic thinking.

 

[Narz]

Well, no we don't.

Of course not.

My view is rather more consistent with academic thinking.

I see no reason whatsoever to think so.

 

[schlaufuchs]

I agree that if you should act, you should. But here - if a man wants to release his sexual tension then go ahead, help him. It's natural for men to have libido. Maybe you can talk the man into oral thing so you don't get touched that much. If you approach the situation in a loving, friendly manner, more opportunities to deal with it arise.