ThERat
Deity
Actually I didn't know that we have 1 MW army already when I made that comment. I agree that another sword army would b better in this case then.
Rat 24 - AWE Training Game
- Thread starter ThERat
- Start date
Do we? I thought we had 3 sword Armies when I looked, but I didn't specifically check.
BTW, we do both agree that the next leader should be the Pentagon.
BTW, we do both agree that the next leader should be the Pentagon.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
Thank you for the additional advice. Yes, one of the western armies is a wounded MW army. I'll keep them in place the first turn to heal. Will switch Xin and Shanghai to walls. BTW, I don't think we need to wait on rushing walls to size 2, because we're in Monarchy and can cash-rush (will make sure there are shield(s) in the bin...unless there is some other reason to wait.
I also want to rush the rax in Centralia for 36g and start a spear or sword. With the GLib saving gold on research, I guess we can afford to spend some (though I'm usually a tight-wad
). I'll try to get a sword army put together ASAP.
I'll check back here after playing a couple of turns to see if there are additional comments.
I also want to rush the rax in Centralia for 36g and start a spear or sword. With the GLib saving gold on research, I guess we can afford to spend some (though I'm usually a tight-wad
). I'll try to get a sword army put together ASAP.I'll check back here after playing a couple of turns to see if there are additional comments.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
Ok, I'm half way through turn 2. I think I have the English front stabilized, but the western front has lots of enemy troops. Here's my turnlog to date:
Rat24 - 50_AD
Turn 0 Preflight:
Make taxman in Alleniel for happiness.
Swap walls in Nanking and Chengdu to rax.
Swap to and rush walls in Xinjain and Shanghai.
Rush rax in Centralia.
Swap a couple of MW builds for swords to put in our empty army. There is quite a bit of jungle and forests to hamper the movement of MWs anyway.
vSword kills Korean rSpear near Beijing, losing 1 hp.
Hit <enter>.
IBT - Chinese r-archer moves next to Xinjian, Spanish r-sword next to our as yet unhealed western armies, Spanish r-spear next to Shanghai, Korean r-spear near Beijing gems, Korean r-MDI shows up in west but no threat yet, 3 English r-archers and 1 r-spear near Nevertheless. MW near Manpo in north attacked by r-spear...we win and promote to elite 3/5, but another healthy r-spear is left in Manpo.
Beijing walls -> cat, Salamanca settler -> MW, Shanghai walls -> worker, Rat Falls MW -> aqua, Ansar's Tiedye cat -> cat, Xinjian walls -> cat, Centralia rax -> spear. Greeks complete GLight in Athens.
1) - 70_AD - I move our 3/5 e-MW back from Mampo to heal, establish Caughnawaga between Xinjian and Shanghai -> walls, distribute and fortify units as best I can for defense, armies still need healing, no swords available for empty army until next turn.
IBT - Korean r-spear moves next to our workers at Othniel's, 2 Korean r-MDI's move next to our now healed armies, another Korean r-MDI following right behind, Spanish 2/3 r-spear next to Shanghai, Spanish r-sword next to Caughnawaga, Spanish r-ACav and r-sword following right behind, English r-archers and spear move next to Nevertheless, English r-archer moves out of Canterbury next to now healed sword army.
Alleniel sword -> harbor, Gmawanda sword -> sword.
2) - 90_AD - Fill empty army with swords and move toward English units, cover exposed workers near Chengdu with spear, ping English stack with 2 cats 1-1 and attack with new sword army, killing the spear, but leaving 3 archers. Attack archers with v-MW, killing 1 archer and promoting MW to 4/5 elite who moves back under the army. S/E sword army flawlessly kills r-archer next to Canterbury.
Here's a screenie of the western front:
I'm not too concerned about the spears near Shanghai or the archer near Xinjian...I think our defense will handle them, BUT near Caughnawaga are several Korean and Spanish units. Our healthy MW army and sword army could probably take out any 2 units, but with unroaded jungle, and more enemy units probably moving forward, I'm unsure if that's wise. Should I attack, or should I move the armies into Caughnawaga, waiting for cats to arrive or enemy units to suicide? Some other solution?
My lack of AW experience is really showing here. I'm uploading the save as well if anyone wants to take a look.
Rat24 - 50_AD
Turn 0 Preflight:
Make taxman in Alleniel for happiness.
Swap walls in Nanking and Chengdu to rax.
Swap to and rush walls in Xinjain and Shanghai.
Rush rax in Centralia.
Swap a couple of MW builds for swords to put in our empty army. There is quite a bit of jungle and forests to hamper the movement of MWs anyway.
vSword kills Korean rSpear near Beijing, losing 1 hp.
Hit <enter>.
IBT - Chinese r-archer moves next to Xinjian, Spanish r-sword next to our as yet unhealed western armies, Spanish r-spear next to Shanghai, Korean r-spear near Beijing gems, Korean r-MDI shows up in west but no threat yet, 3 English r-archers and 1 r-spear near Nevertheless. MW near Manpo in north attacked by r-spear...we win and promote to elite 3/5, but another healthy r-spear is left in Manpo.
Beijing walls -> cat, Salamanca settler -> MW, Shanghai walls -> worker, Rat Falls MW -> aqua, Ansar's Tiedye cat -> cat, Xinjian walls -> cat, Centralia rax -> spear. Greeks complete GLight in Athens.
1) - 70_AD - I move our 3/5 e-MW back from Mampo to heal, establish Caughnawaga between Xinjian and Shanghai -> walls, distribute and fortify units as best I can for defense, armies still need healing, no swords available for empty army until next turn.
IBT - Korean r-spear moves next to our workers at Othniel's, 2 Korean r-MDI's move next to our now healed armies, another Korean r-MDI following right behind, Spanish 2/3 r-spear next to Shanghai, Spanish r-sword next to Caughnawaga, Spanish r-ACav and r-sword following right behind, English r-archers and spear move next to Nevertheless, English r-archer moves out of Canterbury next to now healed sword army.
Alleniel sword -> harbor, Gmawanda sword -> sword.
2) - 90_AD - Fill empty army with swords and move toward English units, cover exposed workers near Chengdu with spear, ping English stack with 2 cats 1-1 and attack with new sword army, killing the spear, but leaving 3 archers. Attack archers with v-MW, killing 1 archer and promoting MW to 4/5 elite who moves back under the army. S/E sword army flawlessly kills r-archer next to Canterbury.
Here's a screenie of the western front:
Spoiler :
I'm not too concerned about the spears near Shanghai or the archer near Xinjian...I think our defense will handle them, BUT near Caughnawaga are several Korean and Spanish units. Our healthy MW army and sword army could probably take out any 2 units, but with unroaded jungle, and more enemy units probably moving forward, I'm unsure if that's wise. Should I attack, or should I move the armies into Caughnawaga, waiting for cats to arrive or enemy units to suicide? Some other solution?
My lack of AW experience is really showing here. I'm uploading the save as well if anyone wants to take a look.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
lurker's comment:
Gma, I think retreating Armies to cities is a mistake (unless mortally wounded, and needing protection); in the field they can operate with impunity - in a city they will be attacked, and as the 'best defender' they will lose hitpoints each time, lessening their value as an offensive unit on your turn.
Gma, I think retreating Armies to cities is a mistake (unless mortally wounded, and needing protection); in the field they can operate with impunity - in a city they will be attacked, and as the 'best defender' they will lose hitpoints each time, lessening their value as an offensive unit on your turn.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
Those spears are primed to pillage, especially the unwounded one. The MdI will not attack a healthy Sword Army, but that spanish sword has good odds against our sword in Caughnawauga. Take that sword out with either an MW or our MW army, then cover with the sword army. That jungle is a double-edged sword, it slows our enemies, but it also slows us. We need to channel our enemies onto the roaded jungle square, so it only slows them, not us. We might also want to road the jungle around Caughnawauga if we can't wipe out the steady flow of units there. I had doubts about settling there, but we must expand.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
Thanks, Buce, for the comment regarding armies in cities.
I don't mean to sound argumentative...I'm just not sure of the best way to handle so many enemy units.
There is an e-sword and e*-sword in Shanghai which could possibly take out either or both spears, but it would leave them exposed and only a spear in Shanghai.
I can probably do that, but surely the Korean MDI's will move forward next turn, and there are Spanish units behind that one sword. We have a 2nd healthy sword that can be moved into Caughnawauga to help defend there, certainly against a single unit attacking us.
I don't know how to channel the AI units anywhere, especially if I attack the Spanish sword to the east, and roading may have to wait until the initial rushes are over with a healthy army for cover.
I don't mean to sound argumentative...I'm just not sure of the best way to handle so many enemy units.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
Definitely don't weaken a border city to stop pillagers, if theres no MW's nearby, then we'll risk it.
The units behind won't attack a healthy sword army, and need a turn to move and another to attack, and the jungle will stop a single turn attack. If you let that Spanish sword attack, it has good odds of winning. Your swords are best used offensively. You might want to attack with your MW army and cover with your sword army. Take each turn as a battle, and hopefully on each subsequent turn, you will have more units ready to deal with the next turns' threat. Those Korean MDI's can't attack this turn, and you can take them out next turn.
The sword army is healthy, so can be used to cover your wounded unit who hopefully will kill the spanish sword. Where's the MW army? It would almost definitely win against a regular sword, and the AI won't attack a healthy defense 2 army(swords) who can cover your MW army. The AI will usually go towards an empty or weakly defended tile rather than fight and lose trying to take a toughly defended tile, and you can herd them into kill zones, where you can kill them on your terms. I think Greebley or THERat could explain this better, but I am trying.
I understand, looking at that many hostiles can be pretty worrisome, even on a computer monitor
I take no offense, as I know how you feel. I am going to try getting a screenie up so I can use pictures to explain better with.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
I think I can see what you mean, at least for a turn or two out. I'll give it a go. Some cats are headed to the front and should be of some help in about 3 turns. Thank you for your ideas and your patience.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
Just a quick update, as I'm getting VERY tired. I have just completed turn 5. May finish later tonight or tomorrow morning.
We got another MGL and The Pentagon is in Beijing. We razed Caterbury (no defense nearby to hold it). I'm scrambling for additional units to add to the armies.
English seem almost gassed. Spanish units have slowed. Koreans are still sending quite a few units. I think we're holding our own so far.
QUESTION #1... Are settler pairs considered any danger to towns? We captured one English pair, but there is 1 Chinese and 1 Korean pair very near to towns. Can I safely ignore them if we don't have enough units to capture them, provided the towns nearby have some defense?
QUESTION #2... Is an MW army any safer with 4 units, rather than 3? With few roads and lots of jungle, it can't just hit and run, and the sword army has been busy.
I'll check back here before I continue.
We got another MGL and The Pentagon is in Beijing. We razed Caterbury (no defense nearby to hold it). I'm scrambling for additional units to add to the armies.
English seem almost gassed. Spanish units have slowed. Koreans are still sending quite a few units. I think we're holding our own so far.
QUESTION #1... Are settler pairs considered any danger to towns? We captured one English pair, but there is 1 Chinese and 1 Korean pair very near to towns. Can I safely ignore them if we don't have enough units to capture them, provided the towns nearby have some defense?
QUESTION #2... Is an MW army any safer with 4 units, rather than 3? With few roads and lots of jungle, it can't just hit and run, and the sword army has been busy.
I'll check back here before I continue.
ThERat
Deity
ok, just some of my own experience in this kind of scenario.
It is good to have catapults to ping potential attackers and pillagers. Spear/pikes will go for pillaging and you need to prevent that. Usually if they are down by 1 hp, they will seek neutral land to heal. Thus, pinging them is good enough at times when there aren't enough units to attack.
Settler pairs are no danger at all, but I wouldn't leave a town undefended next to them.
Maces/swords etc will attack, but sometimes tend to ignore frontline cities if the city is too well defended or the core cities are empty. This tactic can be used to lure them into a killing zone.
It is generally good to have front cities with walls and raxes to ensure complete healing after the attacks.
The MW army is merely to take out attackers, but must not be left in the open. Eene a 4 unit MW army will get attacked as it has only defense 1. Use that army to mop up intruders but not as a means to defend cities, that would be suicidal.
I would say, bring the catapults to the west to ping and stabilize the front while taking out the rest of England. I think you can actually leave conquered cities empty or very lightly defended there for now as they are 'gassed' anyway.
It is good to have catapults to ping potential attackers and pillagers. Spear/pikes will go for pillaging and you need to prevent that. Usually if they are down by 1 hp, they will seek neutral land to heal. Thus, pinging them is good enough at times when there aren't enough units to attack.
Settler pairs are no danger at all, but I wouldn't leave a town undefended next to them.
Maces/swords etc will attack, but sometimes tend to ignore frontline cities if the city is too well defended or the core cities are empty. This tactic can be used to lure them into a killing zone.
It is generally good to have front cities with walls and raxes to ensure complete healing after the attacks.
The MW army is merely to take out attackers, but must not be left in the open. Eene a 4 unit MW army will get attacked as it has only defense 1. Use that army to mop up intruders but not as a means to defend cities, that would be suicidal.
I would say, bring the catapults to the west to ping and stabilize the front while taking out the rest of England. I think you can actually leave conquered cities empty or very lightly defended there for now as they are 'gassed' anyway.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
Yep, 1x1x1x1 is still 1. It's actually a bit more complex than that due to Sid math
AW is definitely wearying, isn't it? All that pressure and all the attacks. I've been watching their 30civs genocide one, that is some heavy duty warfare!
AW is definitely wearying, isn't it? All that pressure and all the attacks. I've been watching their 30civs genocide one, that is some heavy duty warfare!
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
Excellent progress, team 
I actually differ in opinion on this. I must say that I tend to build MW armies over sword armies. I find that the speed + 3 attacks per turn potential is superlative and can allow someone to run over an enemy civ much faster than sword armies.
Sword armies do have excellent value as heavy hitters patrolling an active border. But I also see value in having 2-3 MW armies grouped together to blitz through a group of enemy cities. England, for instance, would be great to use this tactic on. Once the enemy gets pikes though, this tactic is greatly diminished. It's a rather moot point at the moment, but perhaps for the future.
Concerning the palace jump, it'd be much simpler to just use an MGL, but I suppose we'd still like to rush the HE and we're not close to our current army-to-city max.
If we do the "abandon Salamanca" strategy, definitely look at CA2 before actually doing the jump. It'll tell us exactly what city will get the palace so we don't make mistakes. If we're close to our free unit support max, we might want to join native workers to Centralia, but if we're not close to the limit, perhaps using Chinese workers would be better. Anyhow, I don't think we'll need to reduce the pop levels of Rat Falls and Greebely River for the jump to work.
Some war thoughts: Just some general war opinions
I think taking out the wandering spear pillagers should be high priority. They mess us worker orders, and make core cities need defenders, not to mention the pillaging. Take them out if at all possible (on flat ground of course).
More cats for the 3-civ front sounds very nice
Pushing forward and taking cities is usually a better use of the armies rather than static defense. Obviously if a big stack is coming in, the armies might need to defend. But taking cities is the quickest way to gas the enemy.
If you use the armies for attack, then try to set up a slow down/ kill field where our border cities are strongly defended, and the inner cities are empty. The enemy stacks will tend to go for the inner cities, making them take a big, slow walk and giving us a chance to just use a few units to chip away at the stack rather than committing a large number of units. Hopefully in the meantime the armies take the enemy's cities...
I actually differ in opinion on this. I must say that I tend to build MW armies over sword armies. I find that the speed + 3 attacks per turn potential is superlative and can allow someone to run over an enemy civ much faster than sword armies.
Sword armies do have excellent value as heavy hitters patrolling an active border. But I also see value in having 2-3 MW armies grouped together to blitz through a group of enemy cities. England, for instance, would be great to use this tactic on. Once the enemy gets pikes though, this tactic is greatly diminished. It's a rather moot point at the moment, but perhaps for the future.
Concerning the palace jump, it'd be much simpler to just use an MGL, but I suppose we'd still like to rush the HE and we're not close to our current army-to-city max.
If we do the "abandon Salamanca" strategy, definitely look at CA2 before actually doing the jump. It'll tell us exactly what city will get the palace so we don't make mistakes. If we're close to our free unit support max, we might want to join native workers to Centralia, but if we're not close to the limit, perhaps using Chinese workers would be better. Anyhow, I don't think we'll need to reduce the pop levels of Rat Falls and Greebely River for the jump to work.
Some war thoughts: Just some general war opinions
I think taking out the wandering spear pillagers should be high priority. They mess us worker orders, and make core cities need defenders, not to mention the pillaging. Take them out if at all possible (on flat ground of course).
More cats for the 3-civ front sounds very nice
Pushing forward and taking cities is usually a better use of the armies rather than static defense. Obviously if a big stack is coming in, the armies might need to defend. But taking cities is the quickest way to gas the enemy.
If you use the armies for attack, then try to set up a slow down/ kill field where our border cities are strongly defended, and the inner cities are empty. The enemy stacks will tend to go for the inner cities, making them take a big, slow walk and giving us a chance to just use a few units to chip away at the stack rather than committing a large number of units. Hopefully in the meantime the armies take the enemy's cities...
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
Here's a screenie for you to see the situation:
The 4-unit MW army is healing in Caughnawaga. All enemy units are 2 moves away through jungle, and there are not enough defensive units nearby to cover the army if I used it. Also in Caughnawaga is 1 MW and 1 spear.
There are 3 cats covered by a spear near Shanghai and our 4-unit sword army is next to them. That's the area in which the Korean units seem to be heading. Shanghai has 1 spear and 2 e-swords, one of which is e*.
Near Xinjian is 1 Spanish r-sword fortified, a Chinese settler pair, and 2 r-archers. Xinjian is defended by 1 v-spear and a wounded e*-sword.
There is only light defense in nearby towns and some are completely undefended. Most of them have been building rax and then slowly building units or cats. Some of our core is building infra or units, but it takes awhile to get them to the front. New cats will go to the west as we get them.
There are 3 cats in Nevertheless with 1 spear, nearby a 3-unit sword army, a settler, a couple of workers, an e-archer. The other 3-unit sword army just took out Canterbury and captured an English settler pair, and it's herding some slaves N/W.
The MW army would probably do better near England, and I plan to move it that way when we get a few more units in the west, but it's taking time to pull everything together.
The pillagers are now all dead and I'm reroading the gem tile.
Perhaps rushing some units would help move this along. We have 603g at +80gpt.
I'm attaching the save if anyone wants to take a look.
Spoiler :
The 4-unit MW army is healing in Caughnawaga. All enemy units are 2 moves away through jungle, and there are not enough defensive units nearby to cover the army if I used it. Also in Caughnawaga is 1 MW and 1 spear.
There are 3 cats covered by a spear near Shanghai and our 4-unit sword army is next to them. That's the area in which the Korean units seem to be heading. Shanghai has 1 spear and 2 e-swords, one of which is e*.
Near Xinjian is 1 Spanish r-sword fortified, a Chinese settler pair, and 2 r-archers. Xinjian is defended by 1 v-spear and a wounded e*-sword.
There is only light defense in nearby towns and some are completely undefended. Most of them have been building rax and then slowly building units or cats. Some of our core is building infra or units, but it takes awhile to get them to the front. New cats will go to the west as we get them.
There are 3 cats in Nevertheless with 1 spear, nearby a 3-unit sword army, a settler, a couple of workers, an e-archer. The other 3-unit sword army just took out Canterbury and captured an English settler pair, and it's herding some slaves N/W.
The MW army would probably do better near England, and I plan to move it that way when we get a few more units in the west, but it's taking time to pull everything together.
The pillagers are now all dead and I'm reroading the gem tile.
Perhaps rushing some units would help move this along. We have 603g at +80gpt.
I'm attaching the save if anyone wants to take a look.
lurker's comment:
Many people talk about the exponential factor that makes an early GA not (quite) as bad as some people think and that also makes the agri trait so strong.
The same exponential idea applies to gold reserves. Until you get Wall St., there is zero return on stored wealth (and even then it is capped at a 5% cash-on-cash yield on only the first 1,000 gp).
So, until you have Wall St., stored gold is wasted value. Sometimes it serves a particular strategic purpose and you want to store it. But most of the time, it is just a fallow asset.
What can you do with stored gold?
1. Feed trade
2. Rush economic improvements (mkts, libs, unis, bks, etc.)
3. Rush units
4. Deficit research (now)
5. Steal techs (or perform other spy missions)
6. Upgrade units
Numbers 1, 4, and 5 are out of play because of the AW variant, the GLib, and the current age, respectively. That leaves rushing/upgrading. Rushing economic improvements has a multiplier effect that can simulate interest on the wealth you would have stored. A similar effect can be achieved by rushing/upgrading units to take territory/slaves faster and expand the production/farm base.
So, unless you have a greater strategic plan for the cash, it is generally better economics to put it to work accelerating infrastructure or unit production/upgrade.
Of course, the other strategy for stored gold in this case is to stockpile it to fund deficit research later when the GLib goes obsolete. In normal games, I don't like this strategy because of the loss of the compounding effect. In AW games, it can be a better strategy. (1) You'll normally emerge from the GLib period behind the leader if there is one clear tech leader. (2) Being in monarchy somewhat limits the total economy relative to normal games. Combined with the fact that most other civs won't be in monarchy most of the time makes this more troublesome. (3) With the addition of the typically high AW unit support, post-GLib research can be a real problem. As you're generally wanting to race to cavs at that point, a store of cash to fuel deficit research can be nice (as the potential research is not limited by unit/building support).
You just have to weigh the potential research funding capacity of the territory you will take sooner with rushes/upgrades against the value of being able to deficit research for a while. One other thing that makes the "save up for deficit research" strategy potentially stronger relative to the "buy an army to take territory" strategy is the difficulty of safely improving science farms in newly acquired territory. It can take a long time to turn new territory into science farms when there are always enemy units about. If a lot of the new territory will be exposed or will be hard-to-clear jungle land, you may want to save money. If it will be sheltered and have lots of grassland, you may want to buy an attack force.
Sorry, there's not an answer in there (and I've written a disorganized stream-consciousness ramble), but I think those are the key questions.
Finally, as this is a TDG game, it may be a good opportunity to explore the art of shortrushing. I've never looked at your save, so I don't know each town's shield production, but if you have many that are at or slightly above 5 or 10 you may have good short rush opportunities. The extra 40 gold that is saved can quickly add up.
If you are trimmed to the right shield levels, you can basically double the production speed of a 5-shield town by rushing an archer, then letting it finish a MW in two more turns. Prior to getting knights, five and ten (or slightly above) are the key numbers, as most of the production will be 20/30/40 shield items.
Shortrushing is critical in poprush governments (because people aren't fractional and because in small towns it can be the only way to poprush at all). It is less critical in cashrush governments (as each shield has a 4gp cost, so there is no mismatch waste in rushing something with, say, 8 shields left). Nonetheless, it is a good learning exercise and a way to avoid burning all of your reserves too fast.
In essence, every time you do a full rush (with at least one shield in the box), you are binning gold = 4 * the shield production of the town.
One of the trainers or MMM Othniel may want to talk more about shortrushing.
Sorry for the ramble, but these are the kinds of strategic/economic questions that make Civ so fascinating to me.
Many people talk about the exponential factor that makes an early GA not (quite) as bad as some people think and that also makes the agri trait so strong.
The same exponential idea applies to gold reserves. Until you get Wall St., there is zero return on stored wealth (and even then it is capped at a 5% cash-on-cash yield on only the first 1,000 gp).
So, until you have Wall St., stored gold is wasted value. Sometimes it serves a particular strategic purpose and you want to store it. But most of the time, it is just a fallow asset.
What can you do with stored gold?
1. Feed trade
2. Rush economic improvements (mkts, libs, unis, bks, etc.)
3. Rush units
4. Deficit research (now)
5. Steal techs (or perform other spy missions)
6. Upgrade units
Numbers 1, 4, and 5 are out of play because of the AW variant, the GLib, and the current age, respectively. That leaves rushing/upgrading. Rushing economic improvements has a multiplier effect that can simulate interest on the wealth you would have stored. A similar effect can be achieved by rushing/upgrading units to take territory/slaves faster and expand the production/farm base.
So, unless you have a greater strategic plan for the cash, it is generally better economics to put it to work accelerating infrastructure or unit production/upgrade.
Of course, the other strategy for stored gold in this case is to stockpile it to fund deficit research later when the GLib goes obsolete. In normal games, I don't like this strategy because of the loss of the compounding effect. In AW games, it can be a better strategy. (1) You'll normally emerge from the GLib period behind the leader if there is one clear tech leader. (2) Being in monarchy somewhat limits the total economy relative to normal games. Combined with the fact that most other civs won't be in monarchy most of the time makes this more troublesome. (3) With the addition of the typically high AW unit support, post-GLib research can be a real problem. As you're generally wanting to race to cavs at that point, a store of cash to fuel deficit research can be nice (as the potential research is not limited by unit/building support).
You just have to weigh the potential research funding capacity of the territory you will take sooner with rushes/upgrades against the value of being able to deficit research for a while. One other thing that makes the "save up for deficit research" strategy potentially stronger relative to the "buy an army to take territory" strategy is the difficulty of safely improving science farms in newly acquired territory. It can take a long time to turn new territory into science farms when there are always enemy units about. If a lot of the new territory will be exposed or will be hard-to-clear jungle land, you may want to save money. If it will be sheltered and have lots of grassland, you may want to buy an attack force.
Sorry, there's not an answer in there (and I've written a disorganized stream-consciousness ramble), but I think those are the key questions.
Finally, as this is a TDG game, it may be a good opportunity to explore the art of shortrushing. I've never looked at your save, so I don't know each town's shield production, but if you have many that are at or slightly above 5 or 10 you may have good short rush opportunities. The extra 40 gold that is saved can quickly add up.
If you are trimmed to the right shield levels, you can basically double the production speed of a 5-shield town by rushing an archer, then letting it finish a MW in two more turns. Prior to getting knights, five and ten (or slightly above) are the key numbers, as most of the production will be 20/30/40 shield items.
Shortrushing is critical in poprush governments (because people aren't fractional and because in small towns it can be the only way to poprush at all). It is less critical in cashrush governments (as each shield has a 4gp cost, so there is no mismatch waste in rushing something with, say, 8 shields left). Nonetheless, it is a good learning exercise and a way to avoid burning all of your reserves too fast.
In essence, every time you do a full rush (with at least one shield in the box), you are binning gold = 4 * the shield production of the town.
One of the trainers or MMM Othniel may want to talk more about shortrushing.
Sorry for the ramble, but these are the kinds of strategic/economic questions that make Civ so fascinating to me.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
Thanks, downhill. I do know how to short-rush with either pop or cash, though there are already shields in the bin for the units I'd like to hurry. Your discussion of using cash to rush vs deficit research makes sense as well.
I guess I need to know our trainers' thoughts on this.
I guess I need to know our trainers' thoughts on this.
Ansar
Détente avec l'été
Arigato, downhill! 
Great job so far, gma.
Great job so far, gma.
lurker's comment:
どう　いたしまして (Dou itashimashite), Ansar.
Sorry, Harriet, I didn't mean to imply that you -- or any other player in particular -- didn't know how to short rush. I just thought it was a cool topic for a TDG (though the players in this game are probably too advanced).
I also find shortrushing helpful when there are already shields in the box. If the town is producing 10spt, then rushing a MW doesn't make sense to me. I would just shortrush an archer and switch.
Also, I don't even like to shortrush from an empty bin. The first 10 shields from the worker rush still cost an extra 40 gp. Then again, if I'm like FedEx and it absolutely, positively must be there the next day, the worker shortrush can save a lot on the remaining rush.
I'll butt out now. Thanks for a fun game to follow!
Arigato, downhill!
どう　いたしまして (Dou itashimashite), Ansar.
Thanks, downhill. I do know how to short-rush with either pop or cash, though there are already shields in the bin for the units I'd like to hurry. Your discussion of using cash to rush vs deficit research makes sense as well.
I guess I need to know our trainers' thoughts on this.
Sorry, Harriet, I didn't mean to imply that you -- or any other player in particular -- didn't know how to short rush. I just thought it was a cool topic for a TDG (though the players in this game are probably too advanced).
I also find shortrushing helpful when there are already shields in the box. If the town is producing 10spt, then rushing a MW doesn't make sense to me. I would just shortrush an archer and switch.
Also, I don't even like to shortrush from an empty bin. The first 10 shields from the worker rush still cost an extra 40 gp. Then again, if I'm like FedEx and it absolutely, positively must be there the next day, the worker shortrush can save a lot on the remaining rush.
I'll butt out now. Thanks for a fun game to follow!
Looks like your turns are humming along quite nicely, gmaharriet!
Obviously, leave them alone if you don't have enough units to defend our holdings, but never overlook the value of two extra slaves. Harvesting settler pairs can be quite useful.
IMO, this is where downhill hit the nail on the head. As long as we have a functioning GLib, we'll remain comfotably just behind the tech leader, with no ependiture of gold for science. But we won't have any choice as to when the GLib goes obsolete. That will be something that just happens to us. I have'nt taken a close look at the save, but from reading the posts, I see two primary options: (1) rush units (you said you were scrambling for units); and (2) rush some libraries (assuming that there are some that we need). Libraries will get us some culture now and help us absorb the shock when the GLib goes obsolete.
Obviously, leave them alone if you don't have enough units to defend our holdings, but never overlook the value of two extra slaves. Harvesting settler pairs can be quite useful.
IMO, this is where downhill hit the nail on the head. As long as we have a functioning GLib, we'll remain comfotably just behind the tech leader, with no ependiture of gold for science. But we won't have any choice as to when the GLib goes obsolete. That will be something that just happens to us. I have'nt taken a close look at the save, but from reading the posts, I see two primary options: (1) rush units (you said you were scrambling for units); and (2) rush some libraries (assuming that there are some that we need). Libraries will get us some culture now and help us absorb the shock when the GLib goes obsolete.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
I can reach several units, including one of the settler pairs, in 2 moves with the MW army, but have not enough defensive units to cover the army (and the nearby towns). The enemy is in jungle squares.
I'm thinking about swapping some sword builds to spears and rushing them, moving the spears to the western front and getting that MW army heading east where maybe it can do some good. I'm not even sure if that's a good idea, so I just stare at the screen and do nothing.
