Rat 24 - AWE Training Game

[gmaharriet]

Well, since I can't seem to make a decision, and I see that Greebley will be out starting on the 15th, I'm going to post the rest of my turnlog and turn it over to him. I'll be following closely to see how he handles it.

I apologize for any inconvenience in stopping early, but I always have so many questions and it slows the game for everyone else.


2) Cont'd:

Kill Spanish r-sword next to Caughnawaga with MW army now 10/13 and cover with sword army. Attack Chinese r-archer next to Xinjian and get an MGL who was sent to Beijing to build Pentagon. The wounded e*-sword can retreat to Xinjian next turn without being attacked. Hurried spear in Centralia to ensure safety of Beijing.

IBT - Korean spear pillages gems, though we still have 2nd source, but Chinese 2/3 r-spear on the other ones, so must take him out. Spanish ACav and r-sword move next to Xinjian with 2 Spanish r-sword following behind. 3 Korean r-MDI right outside Caughnawaga and 1 more following behind.

Beijing Pentagon - rax, Salamanca MW -> MW, Centralia Spear -> Sword

3) - 110_AD - e-sword from Shanghai kills 2/3 Chinese 2/3 r-spear on gems. Spear from Centralia moves to Beijing, and Beijing spear moves to Caughnawaga along with 3 cats. Kill Spanish r-ACav with MW army down to 5/13 and move it to the relative safety of Caughnawaga where we have 1 spear, 2 swords and 3 cats. Kill 2 Korean r-MDIs with sword army down to 12/14, hoping it's still to strong to be attacked.

That leaves 1 r-MDI outside Caughnawaga and 1 more behind him, 1 r-spear outside of Xinjian (defended by 1 v-spear and 1 3/5 e*-sword) and 2 more behind him.

Ping 2 english r-archers, cats to 2 for 2. Kill 1 archer with MW and other with covering army. Use sword army to capture and raze Canterbury as we have no units to hold it, netting 13g and 4 slaves.

IBT - Lose 1 v-sword at Canawauga from r-MDI attack. 3 Spanish r-swords fortify outside Xinjian, Chinese settler pair moves near Xinjian. Korean galley spotted off coast near Rat Falls, but MW due next turn in Salamanca.

English request an audience...um, no. We get The Republic from the GLib. Ansar's Tiedye cat -> cat, Overseer's spear -> sword, Sealant walls -> rax

4) - 130_AD - Sword army kills 2 Spanish 4-swords, army still at 12/14. MW army still healing.

Cats ping English r-archer, going 2 for 2 and redlining archer...said archer killed by e-archer from Nevertheless and covered by army...settler and 2 workers also hide under army heading toward the English.

MW kills r-archer from Nampo, but is redlined at retreats to safety under other MW.

Hired taxman in Overseer's due to moving MW MP toward front. Sword still due in 5.

IBT - 2 Chinese r-archers move toward Catawauga, rl'd Korean MDI suicides at Catawauga, 2 more Korean MDI head toward Shanghai. Korean settler pair move toward Shanghai, Chinese settler pair right next to Xinjian, English galley drops off settler pair near Canterbury ruins.

Salamanca MW -> settler, Aabra's Folly walls -> cat, Othniel's MW -> sword.

5) - 150_AD - Move sword army into Catawauga and add 4th spear to army. Ping Korean r-MDI near Shanghai, cats go 1 for 3, kill with sword army at 15/18, cover cats with spear. Leave MW army in Catawauga as there is no immediate threat of attack, but nothing within reach to kill and nothing to cover that army.

Kill r-spear near Chengdu with v-MW (2/4) and send him to Chengdu to heal.

Ping English archer at Nevertheless, cats go 2 for 2, kill archer with e-MW, no promotion. Cannot cover him, but no English units near him, nor any roads for them to use.

Army near Caterbury ruins kills English r-spear and captures 2 workers.

Swap Gap-Filler from walls to cat.


The SAVE is in post #194.

 

[Greebley]

Ok, I got it. Note that whatever I decide to do there are probably several ways to handle the situation.

This BTW is the initial rush I was talking about. The game is likely harder now than it will be in 10 turns (unless another big rush occurs). You are getting two civs sending their initial units at you at the same time.

 

[Othniel]

The same exponential idea applies to gold reserves. Until you get Wall St., there is zero return on stored wealth (and even then it is capped at a 5% cash-on-cash yield on only the first 1,000 gp).

I also agree that this is an excellent observation. I generally say rush city improvements with cash, although a critical unit can be a good buy. Getting useful improvements with the cash will earn a return for each additional turn saved from actually having to build it. I personally like to rush markets, aqueducts, and libraries with cash, and those look like good buys for our situation.

Typically I don't save onto much cash until late in the game, but I also don't normally play AW. So, if our trainers say the unit costs will crush our treasury too much and saving now is better, that that's cool with me.

Anyhow, I just wanted to let everyone know that I'm also going on vacation from August 15-25th. I plan to be back playing at that point, but better would be if you guys had won by then! Hopefully we won't be hurting too bad for players since it seems Greebley and I have similar vacation times...

 

[Greebley]

Saving money for Deficit research is the primary reason to save as mentioned. I tend to only spend cash that is well worth it to spend rather than trying to spend it. Believe me, getting to Cav before the AI is well worth saving the cash for. With luck one gets Chivalry and Gunpowder or Chem from the GLib and then just bee-line for Cav at 100% research when it expires.

 

[ThERat]

I am very much with Greebley here. Saving the cash to be able to do deficit research is well worth it as we found via many AW games.

I do not like the idea to use the cash to rush libraries as they do not give us any benefit for the time being. In fact, markets would multiply our income. So, if we rush stuff, it should be markets and then units.
Of course, this being a training game, we could try this out (I think the game is going quite well, so we could do something experimental). Use the cash to part rush units and infrastructure such as markets and later maybe libraries.
We're still in the GA, thus I would not rush buildings, as we make high shields anyway at the moment.

 

[ThERat]

Just so we know what is going on:

The Roster:
Greebley - up and then out from 15th to 26th (?) August
ansar -
Othniel - on vacation from 15th to 25th August
ThERat
Aabraxan
TheOverseer714
gmaharriet

 

[Ansar]

(Busy this week with assignments as the last week of school is upon me and I still have to read 2 books... - I'll see if can slip a couple turns in, though)

 

[Greebley]

My take on rushing is rush if it is important - walls and key barracks on front lines, perhaps a needed defender or attack unit to meet a threat. I am pretty sure rushing a Market is not cost effective in that the gold you get from having the market earlier is much less than what you spent. We don't have a huge need for more units - the Armies are doing much of the real work so a few more swords aren't going to make much of a difference and are less effective use of our cash compared to earlier Cavalry.

I have played 5 turns and may try to play some more tonight if I have time. Otherwise I will likely hand over the game to the next player.

As for progress, we have found London and started attacking it with two armies. It has the Pyramids and Colossus, and so is a real prize.

 

[Othniel]

I am pretty sure rushing a Market is not cost effective in that the gold you get from having the market earlier is much less than what you spent.

I think that often it does cost more money to rush the market than it will earn back in gpt for the rest of the game. But if we consider that gold just sitting in the treasury earns us nothing until Wall Street, rushing markets at leasts gets a return. Is it always worth it? No. Is it sometimes worth it? Yes, I think so. The big question is if there is something better to spend the money on. In our case, deficit research sounds like the more worthy ROI.

Anyhow, if we do rush improvements, I agree that markets are way better than Libs until we stop (near) 100% science.

As for progress, we have found London and started attacking it with two armies. It has the Pyramids and Colossus, and so is a real prize.

Pyramids! I didn't even realize England had it.

 

[Aabraxan]

I think that often it does cost more money to rush the market than it will earn back in gpt for the rest of the game. But if we consider that gold just sitting in the treasury earns us nothing until Wall Street, rushing markets at leasts gets a return. Is it always worth it? No. Is it sometimes worth it? Yes, I think so. The big question is if there is something better to spend the money on. In our case, deficit research sounds like the more worthy ROI.

I'm sure everyone here is aware of this, but I can't resist the urge to mention it. The other question with regard to rushing markets and ROI is how much they'll help us with luxury spending.

 

[Greebley]

Preturn:
English: There is an Archer near the town and the Army hasn't yet moved so I kill the Archer and move the Army into the town. The English Border is where I would like to expand so I will keep 2 Armies there to go on the offensive. I may even keep English cities - we are only slightly behind in Culture so small cities won't have much chance of flipping.

Spain:
Notice the single fortified sword. This sword is currently of no danger to us. If the AI has a single unit, it will tend to fortify next to a city and wait for more units. Thus I don't think we have to worry about the sword right now. We do want to keep 2 units in the city near the sword, because a single unit will attack a weak defense, but with 2 def 2 units in it we need not worry until they show up with the next unit.

We could use the mounted Warrior Army to kill it if we wished. There would only be 2 Archers able to threaten it and attack 2 units will not attack a def 1 army unless it is very low on HP (in which case we cover with the defenders in the town nearby).

Korea: The biggest threat with its MDI. We have sword and MW Armies to deal with them however and their density is currently low enough they are not a serious threat - at least not yet. Note that the Sword Army can attack the MDI freely even if there is another MDI nearby because it is defense 2.

China: Sending Archer for the most part so not a major theat. Note that there is a fortified Spear near the border guarding cats. A Chinese Archer is quite possible so I moved an MW on top of it too - they are much less likely to have 2 Archers and the MW isn't needed for town defense right now as noone can get to it in one turn.

We have only 7 catapults total - more would be nice, though I agree with the decision to build sword first to get our Armies to full. We are especially short on sword with the Armies taking up most of them recently.

Moving the Cats from the less active English front to the Southern front.

------------------

We have an Elite* sword in Xinjian. I want to join that one into an Army. This makes me change my mind and the MW Army attacks and kills the Spanish sword. That way the E* Sword is free to start heading for English Border and the two Armies that have only 3 units.

IBT: MDI and Warrior Settler next to Shanghai. Sword Army kills them and captures 2 Workers. Start on a road. It will increase Mobility.

170 AD: The two Archers move next to the Caughnawaga. I kill one with the MW. and do a HP to the other with 2 Cats. It will now likely retreat. That frees the MW Army to kill the Spear on the Settler to gain 2 more Workers. Start a road on the Jungle, I want to connect Shanghai and Caughnawaga.

Army finds London which has Colossus and Pyramids. Send the second Army around to try to grab the city as we want that one.

I aborted some workers chopping a forest. The only city close enough was building the Forbidden Palace and it would waste the 10 shields. I would rather chop later when we can use the shields for something.


So total threat now is a wounded Chinese Archer (which will retreat, heal, move-back so no threat for 3 turns), A Spanish Spear that just showed up, and 2 visible MDI from Korea near the Sword Army.

IBT: Koreans don't actually make any progress toward us - the MDI move odly. Ancient Cav and Spanish Sword show up.

190 AD: Join up the E* Sword to the Army.
Our Sword Army kills the ACav. MW Army Heals. Rush walls in Caughnawaga as the Spanish and China are targetting it.
There remains a lone Chinese Archer near our city. The rest is all at least a turn away.

IBT: Now the Spanish Spear and Archer are near Caughnawaga. Koreans are going somewhere that is not toward our closest cities. The Chines Archer fortifies because there is only 1 unit there.

210 AD: Bombard the Spear doing a single HP which brings the Sword on top. That I attack with the MW Army which doesn't want to move (still building a road). There is now a lone injured Spear that will retreat.

The picture below shows the situation. Note that the Sword Army is Healing. The injured units will retreat, but I don't really care. They will be back and killed when I have more sword or an Army free to do something about them. I think this is one tricky part of AW warfare. You often don't kill stacks of only 1 unit - I it is OK if they retreat.

Attack London killing 2 Spear but need to Heal, Attack Korean town in Tundra.

IBT: Lose MDI to Archer in Korean town. Probably shouldn't have attacked, but I want to deal with those cities...
English Archer Approaches London and our city of Nevertheless. Korean MDI spotted again. Will it approach now?

230 AD: Armies healing on South Front - no units to attack as they all retreated. Kill 2 English Archers.

IBT: 3 English Archers show up. Kill 2 more Spear in London (other Army on hill healing).
Korea places MDI and Spear next to our Caughnawaga.

250 AD: Kill MDI+ Spear.

Notes:
I am a bit short on time currently for pre-vacation stuff. I hope to be back on the 26th or 27th of August. Good luck while I am gone.

I am hoping we can start keeping English cities that we capture starting with London. Note that both Armies need to heal

 

[Ansar]

...

Got it.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Plant our own cities in between them where possible. We need more settlements for support, anyway. I didn''t see any rules preventing ICS areas, and looks like England has lots of tundra.

 

[ThERat]

I didn''t see any rules preventing ICS areas, and looks like England has lots of tundra.

we don't really like to play ICS in our AW games though we didn't state that clearly. Sometimes a CxC placement is fine, but usually we try to stick to CxxC. The situation isn't that desperate that we need to resort to such measures.

There are gaps to be filled in England, but we should stick to CxxC IMHO.

Anyway, nice progress, let's hope we get a MGL for the palace jump.

 

[Ansar]

Plant our own cities in between them where possible. We need more settlements for support, anyway. I didn''t see any rules preventing ICS areas, and looks like England has lots of tundra.

I guess so.

I was mainly asking because well...what am I supposed to do with the settlers?

 

[Greebley]

One can go SE of Oka.

The other can go somewhere in England area I suspect.

BTW, I forgot to mention I have tried gather a small force to go after the Korean town in our own Tundra. I would just keep that city if it doesn't autodestruct. At size 1 flips are not really an issue. We can replace later if we so desire. It seems pointless though to destroy the city just to let another civ plant one.

The city had a Spear and an Archer in it.

 

[Ansar]

Pre-Turn
Observe the situation.
CivAssist tells me Centralia will riot. Hire a taxman.
Rename Ansar's Tiedye Shop to Ansar's Shop.

IBT
Boat drops off a Chinese Spear/Settler combo.

1. 260 AD
Greebley River settler -> settler.
Alleniel Harbor -> MW.
Ansar's Shop Catapult -> Catapult.
Nevertheless Swordsman -> Swordsman.

Cats go meow.
Kill 2 Korean MDI and a Korean Archer.
Kill 1 Chinese Archer.
Kill 2 English Archer with MW and Sword, sword promotes to Elite.
Kill Settler Pair with Sword.

2. 270 AD
Salamanca Settler -> Swordsman.
Rat Falls Temple -> MW.
Aabra's Folly Catapult -> Catapult.
Gmawanda Spearman -> Swordsman.
Chengdu MW -> MW.
Sealant Rax -> Spearman.

Capture Manpo.

Settle Chondote.

Cats do such a nice job.
Kill a couple more units in the frontline.
Sending the Sword Army to go deal with the Chinese city.

IBT
Korean MDI/Spear pair fortifies thanks to the Cats.

3. 280 AD
What do I do with these settlers?

Greebley River Settler -> Rax.
Nanking Temple -> Sword (defense, just in case).
Ansar's Shop Catapult -> Catapult.

Kill an English archer, but not leader.
Capture London!

New capital is York. We manage to score 3 workers off London.
Change entertainer in London to taxmen. British comedy is overrated anyways.
Kill a Chinese archer that tried sneaking up on Ansar's Shop.

4. 290 AD
Beijing Rax -> Sword.
Shangai will riot. Assign a taxman.
London quells 3 resisters. They're all a bunch of complainers, anyways.
Cats are very frisky and manage to score on all hits!

IBT
Spears hold well against a MDI and a Sword.
We get Feudalism from Korea + England!

5. 300 AD
Salamanca MDI -> MDI.
Rat Falls MW -> MDI.
Alleniel MW -> MDI.
Ansar's Shop Catapult -> Catapult.
Aabra's Folly Catapult -> Catapult.

IBT
Learn Monotheism.

6. 310 AD
Othniels Iron Fist MDI -> MDI.
Chengdu MW -> MDI.

Yellow-shaped thing indicates where Catapults are ready to bombard the enemy units. Mountie army is there too to help get rid of the enemies. Next player (Othniel) might wanna move the 2 catapults under the slave bunch into Shanghai. Spanish swords have been going for Xinjian recently and it seems the Spearman + Walls manage to hold them off (but don't guarantee yourself, though - I might just have had good RNG luck). The Sword Army (pink circle) was going to attack Canton (Chinese city to the SW) but can attack the Spanish swords if you think it's better. I drew a green line from Shanghai to the NW because there is a Spanish city there we should take (there are units coming towards the frontline, so you could use a couple of those to make a mini-stack.)

In the north, I tried taking Hangchow with 2 MW's and didn't work. Should have waited for the Swordsman. MW's need healing, so just fortify. The worker there is building a road so when you capture it, it'll be easier to get to and from it.

Sorry I stopped at Turn 6, but this is the part of the game where I get really freaked out because the empire is a big stage and I just frankly don't know what to do. (Yes, this is the part of AW that always scares me.)

Save - http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/59067/Rat24_AD310.SAV

P.S. - Sorry Othniel, some units (not workers) may be on automove...

 

[gmaharriet]

Sorry I stopped at Turn 6, but this is the part of the game where I get really freaked out because the empire is a big stage and I just frankly don't know what to do. (Yes, this is the part of AW that always scares me.)

Same thing happens to me, Ansar. When I just don't know what to do, I freeze and can't do anything. I'm sure learning a lot from how other players handle what I didn't know how to do!!!

Good turns played, Ansar.

 

[ThERat]

ansar, I don't think there is anything to worry about, you set of turns seems to be excellent

Ok, I am up anyway.

The Roster:
Greebley -out from 15th to 26th (?) August
ansar -
Othniel - on vacation from 15th to 25th August
ThERat - up
Aabraxan - on deck
TheOverseer714
gmaharriet

 

[ThERat]

but this is the part of the game where I get really freaked out because the empire is a big stage and I just frankly don't know what to do

Now, at this stage our position seems to be excellent.

England is almost gone and has gifted us 2 great wonders, of which one doesn't even ever expire. The wonders I like the most for the duration of such games are pyramids, Sun Tzu (free raxes are great for AW) and Smiths.
I do hope that someone is building Sun Tzu on our continent for us

So, what is the strategy for the short (1) and long (2) term:

1. Take out England. Get a MGL and use it for the palace jump. Then go after all the western foes, one after another, slowly expanding CxxC and pushing them back. Once you can see that a foe is crumbling, cities can be kept and expansion could be faster than defenders built.

2. Our aim should be to get full control of our own continent. Defending such a far flung empire is a little difficult until rails come in. Once we have steam and rails, we can easily control our whole continent and then fully concentrate on taking over the other continent(s). As defense of a whole continent is a little difficult at times, it is good to set up a ladning spot for the AI. The AI seems to have their targets and won't shift away from there. So what does make the AI target a certain spot? For example, empty cities seem to attract them a lot. Thus, keeping 1 or 2 cities empty on purpose and having a good army including artillery nearby is a often used strategy.

As for techs, we should wait until we get invention and then decide whether to self research gunpowder or wait for that as well. We ever had a AW game (our standard deity pangaea victory), where we did not get any tech beyond engineering on the lower path. I had games where I got chemistry, so it is a little difficult to predict.
However, getting to cavalry before you enemies do, is crucial. Thus, all the money we stash up now, can be used for fast and furious defecit research later on. The lux situation is excellent and we can save now a lot of cash. Cav armies are the killer (and IMHO the best) 'unit' in the game. Their 4 tile movement is a real blow to the enemy. They can take on cities defended by rifles without artillery support.
So, once we get invention, we need to discuss whether to start gunpowder by ourselves. It could well be that our current enemies are so weak by that time, that we won't even get education from them. We would then need to wait for overseas AI's to visit us with their galleons/frigate.

Once we are in the position to drop our own units onto the other continent, we can discuss this.

Note, that at a certain moment, we need to stop filling armies with 4 units, so that galleons can still transport them to the other continents. 4 unit armies can only be shipped bu transports.


One more thing:
Our current enemies all have their UU's coming up soon and I really would like to avoid them. The Chinese raider and the Spanish Conquistator (?) are a real pain. I would like to spare an army to send that out to pillage any horses that are left to the Spanish. We should be able to defeat the Chinese before they get chivalry.