Rat 24 - AWE Training Game

Everything sounds reasonable Othniel. Our first leaders should go for Armies as they are key to AW, but we may be able to slip in a palace move - or simply take the time to build it from scratch.

I like going for Horses next. Our UU is a nice one and I think we should check out the possibilities now. It will be faster than Iron Working. After we know where the Horses are we can discuss the priority of HBR.
 
Let's just abandon Salamanca when the time comes and setup the jump for the city we want.

Definitely agree on MGL for Armies and also on going for The Wheel next.
 
Lurker's Comment:I notice that the forest thats shown in Ansar's screenshot is difference from the one thats taken from greebly.Is that a mod?is a mod suppose to be loaded in the civ-content?how can you import it to a save file?(sorry i barely start using mods)
 
I agree with going for the wheel so we know where the horses are. if we lack them, we might have no choice but to go for IW as well.

Another question is, do we go for the Great Library? It is not essential for AWE but a big plus. If we do that, we would need to go for writing and literature after maths while starting a prebuild nicely timed. The prebuild city should have a strong shield base.

Interesting thoughts on a palace jump. I haver never done that. It would mean that our present core is not very valuable and all the improvements.
 
Interesting thoughts on a palace jump. I haver never done that. It would mean that our present core is not very valuable and all the improvements.

Yep, I don't recommend building many improvements in the present core save some raxes and the granary. I think the palace jump will be necessary because growth without fresh water is very difficult/expensive, plus tundra cities are not preferred for the core. If we kept the palace in Salamanca and just expanded toward the fresh water, those later cities would have lots of rank and distance corruption. So, IMO, a jump will have to happen.

Regarding the GLib, that sounds fine to me to build it, starting the pre-build soon. Of course, it won't affect my turnset, so we can discuss that later.

Okay, consider this my "got it".

I'm planning on doing things similar what I said before. I'll be sending out the warrior scout into the tundra because no one has objected.

Research BW --> The Wheel at max possible for +gpt.
 
In the Aabra01 SG, we pulled a palace jump, & that is the grand sum of all palace jumps that I've ever done. Yep, it turns the current core, at best, into semi-core and quite possibly into a field of specialist farms. On the up side, however, if we know now that we're planning on it (& I think we should plan on it), we shouldn't wast a lot of time building city improvements in our current towns.

I can see how the GLib would be a great asset in an AW game. However, as I never build it in my solo games, I'm afraid I don't have a clue as to when or where to start a prebuild. :dunno:
 
We will have fresh water at the capitol. It just takes time to get there.

You all know more about palace jumps than I do and will be teaching me.

I would go for the GLib. I consider it a key wonder for AW and sometimes vital if there is heavy pressure and you need to concentrate on military for survival.

Learning to build it - when to start a pre-build is part of AW you should learn.

However, since in this game it won't be vital, I think we have more flexibility on when we start it - we can take some risk and start it later.

If this was a deity game for example, I would be recommending Masonry to start a pre-build soonish - probably in Greebley River which will get the cow when we place the next town and several BG.
 
Turnset is finished.

Summary of events:
- We are at war!! A Chinese warrior (ironically) found us on my 9th turn
- Discovered Gems a few tiles N of the capital
- Moved settler in position to found a chokepoint city next turn
- Discovered BW and just started research on The Wheel

The reg Chinese warrior is 3 moves away from being able to attack our warrior fortified on the chokepoint. I moved one of our MP warriors as well to the choke, and we have another warrior due from Greebley River in 3 turns (unless the build is changed.) So, that means we can have at least 3 reg warriors defending the chokepoint city from the one warrior. I think that sounds reasonably safe.

All the builds are debatable. We can change Salamanca to either an Archer or Spear instead of the settler. The settler factory at Salamanca isn't quite ready yet anyway until we get the BG mined. I'm going to do another post here immediately on my thoughts on the Salamanca factory.

>>Here<< is the save.

Here's a turn log: Warning, I tend to be pretty detailed... :)
Spoiler :
Pre-flight Check:
Science slider is at 60%, gaining +3gpt. I don't see much point for making gold as we won't need it for trading anytime soon ;) and we're far from a cash-rushing gov. So, I up the science to 80%, moving BW from 18 --> 12 turns to complete and netting 0gpt.

MMing cities looks fine. Ansar had mentioned changing the worked tiles for +1 commerce, but I can't see anyway to do that.

Change Salamanca from Settler --> Barracks, due in 3

I note that there are coastal tiles visible beyond the mountains NW of capital. More evidence we are at the extreme end of the landmass...

Press enter...

IBT
zzz

Turn 1 --> 2300
Move warrior 1N to the chokepoint.

IBT
zzz

Turn 2 --> 2270
Fortify warrior on choke

Salamanca grows and builds rax next turn, but no real MM opportunities available. We'll have a little overrun on food and shields

IBT
zzz

Turn 3 --> 2230
Salamanca Barracks --> Settler
Greebley Falls Warrior --> Worker

Original worker finishes road and moves E, N to a new BG for purposes of road to the cow settler site.
Move new warrior temporarily to Rat Falls to keep the peace

Raise lux to 10% to prevent riots

Unfortunately, when Rat Falls grew last turn, it selected the fish on growth rather than a forest. The governor chose this because it was making less than +3fpt overall, but this is still annoying...grr

I chose to keep Rat Falls working the fish rather than a forest. That way it grows in twice as fast and makes +2cpt. Some people may chose the forest instead (speeding the rax by 2 turns) but the faster growth/commerce is more important, IMHO.

MM Salamanca to grow in 4 and make settler in 5 (it'll actually make the settler in 4 once I MM more.)

After keeping on working the Rat Falls fish, I decide to keep science at 80%. This gets us BW in 7 rather than 9 turns, but does cost us -1gpt.

IBT
zzz

Turn 4 --> 2190
Worker roads the BG
Move temp Rat Falls warrior to Salamanca, and move 1 warrior from Salamanca NE, N...and he discovers Gems! :yeah:

Raise lux to 20% to keep peace. Reduce science to 70% to get us 0gpt (rather than -2gpt). BW drops just 1 turn, completed in 7 turns.

I realize I could MM some more to get Rat Falls rax 2 turns quicker, but that would cost us 2cpt overall in juggling. I don't think the tradeoff is worth it, so I leave things as is.

IBT
zzz

Turn 5--> 2150

Northern warrior discovers a second gem

MM Salamanca to get Settler in 2 turns (after the forest growth). This costs us 1cpt, making us net -1gpt overall. I leave science as is.

IBT
zzz

Turn 6 --> 2110
Warrior discovers...a larger expanse of dreary tundra to the north. ;)

I make sure Greebley River works a nearby roaded grass so that the Governor of Salamanca doesn't get ideas about working a non-forest tile on growth
This will cause me a little more MM juggling next turn, but it's worth it.

IBT
zzz

Turn 7 --> 2070
Arrgh!! The Salamancan governor still chose an ordinary grass tile, leaving our settler 1 turn short :gripe: Our overall small +fpt in the capital is wreaking havoc with the governor. I decided to hire a temp scientist in the capital for the extra turn. The specialist will slow growth in the capital, but if we follow the 8 turn archer-settler cycle that I mentioned, we want the capital down to size 2. It'll save us on the happy slider too.

I MM all cities and temporarily juggle around the tiles worked to minimize overruns and max commerce.

Worker to cow to road

IBT
zzz

Turn 8 --> 2030
Salamanca Settler--> Settler
Greebley River Worker--> Warrior? Not sure on this build, we may want another rax instead. Possibly even another granary...

Worker1 roads the cow
Worker2 to Rat Falls BG, starts to mine

MM all cities. Salamanca will need it's BG mined for this settler-archer factory to work.

Lux slider back to 10% and science to 70%. BW due in 3 turns.

IBT
Meet China!! According to the rules, I declare war ASAP without going to the trading screen. AW, here we come.

Turn 9 --> 1990
Dow China. They have a reg warrior 4 moves away from attacking our chokepoint warrior. Our Military advisor says we're weak compared to China. Ok then.

The CA2 pop-up lets us know we can buy BW, Masonary, Myst, and The Wheel from China. I'm not sure if this is spoiler info based on our variant, but I decide to report it anyway.

I still move the new settler to near the chokepoint spot. To help with defense, I moved Rat Fall's warrior toward the chokepoint. I contemplate changing Salamanca's build to Archer but refrain for the moment. I'll leave that for Aabraxan because the build won't finish during this set regardless. In any event, we can easily have 3+ reg warriors in our choke before the Chinese warrior gets there.

BW due in 1 turn, with -1gpt. I kept the Salamanca warrior back as an MP so that we don't have to raise the lux slider exorbitantly and slow down BW.

IBT
Chinese warrior moves toward the choke, 3 turns from being able to attack

Turn 10 --> 1950
Rat Falls Barracks --> Archer
Research BW --> The Wheel.

At least have China make contact is lowering tech costs. I have research at 70%, getting The Wheel in 16 at -2gpt. Obviously the rate can be changed by next player

All city builds are debatable. The cow will be roaded in 1 turn, hooking up the chokepoint site by road to rest of the empire.

I propose naming next city site "Fort Ansar" to continue our current naming scheme patterned after ourselves. ;)

Some screenies:

China_DoW_SMALL.jpg

1950_BC_Core_SMALL.JPG

1950_BC_North_Tundra_SMALL.JPG
 
My thoughts on Salamanca is that we should use it as an 8 turn settler-archer factory (putting in a spear for the archer as needed).

I've worked up an Excel spreadsheet on how to accomplish this. There is a little bit of overrun on food and shields, plus a little bit of lost commerce unless we road all the tiles in question.

Doing this pattern does free up the wheat to be used by Rat Falls. We also would run the factory from sizes 2-4. We can, of course, run the factory at a higher pop to gain more commerce, but I think the offsetting rise in happy slider costs might make that inefficient.

IMPORTANT: In order for this to work, the Salamanca BG has to be mined. Also, we have to make sure Rat Falls doesn't work the wheat on the turn when the settler should finish. Otherwise, because the governor gets screwed up and won't select a forest on growth (because of our meager +fpt), we'll be a shield or two short. That means this won't work at the moment.

Here's a screenie of the spreadsheet. The actual file is zipped in the attachment at the bottom.

Settler_Factory.JPG
 

Attachments

Great turns, Othniel! :)
Can't believe we met one civ already, and as you said, irony occurred and we met China.

I'm not really good with spreadsheets so I'll leave that discussion to you guys. :blush:

Ansar had mentioned changing the worked tiles for +1 commerce, but I can't see anyway to do that.
If you mean the edit at the end of my turnset post, I meant that I had MM after I took the picture, and instead of being +2 gpt, it went up to +3 gpt. I had simply made Rat Falls use the fish while Greebley River used the roaded BG.
I propose naming next city site "Fort Ansar" to continue our current naming scheme patterned after ourselves.
Well, the naming scheme I got from ThERat's games (:mischief: :blush:) , and it simply was changing the name of the city a bit. So, the next city would be something like Ansargheny or Othgheny or Allothniel (the original city name is Allegheny, btw).

But I'm just being picky, name it what you want.
 
nice posts Othniel :goodjob:

I am not that strong with spreadsheets, so that is excellent. Great news on the gems, their are on the safe side. Since we know 2 luxes already, there are bound to be more enemies on our continent (I was worried we are alone).

With slow growth, workers are always hard to get, but I would go for a worker as soon as possible in Greebley River.

We should churn out a few archers and spears for the choke and that should be sufficient. China's warrior would just freeze as long as he is alone once we have spears. So, I guess Rat's fall should go for a spear first.

About the Great Library prebuild. If we have horses, we would skip IW and go for maths then literature. In that case, we should start a prebuild around the time, we finish research on masonry. While we research maths, writing and literature, we can accumulate sufficient shields for the palace (300s). This needs to be timed so that the moment we get literature, we swap for the added 100s for the GLib.


Roster:

Greebley
ansar -
Othniel - Just Played
ThERat - up
Aabraxan
TheOverseer714
gmaharriet
 
Arrgh!! The Salamancan governor still chose an ordinary grass tile, leaving our settler 1 turn short
Did we set the governor on 'emphasize growth' ? Should change that, I will check when I play
 
Did we set the governor on 'emphasize growth' ? Should change that, I will check when I play

It's on "emphasize production", which I think is what you had in mind. It should choose a forest on growth, but it's flaky.

If you reference the recent thread on "Are Governor's Useful", I posted a couple of times on the issues with governors. To put it in a nutshell, if the city is making +3fpt or less, it seems the governor likes to choose a 2 food tile on growth rather than a one-food forest. Bad programming, IMO, especially because food matters ZERO on the growth assignment, but true nonetheless.

Also, what tile is selected seems to be affected by what tiles are roaded (more powerful tile?). That's why I did the pre-growth monkeying with all the worked tiles, but to no avail.

Lastly, this governor stuff seems to be semi-random too in its behavior, not always predictable... :p :gripe:
 
When a town grows, it will never choose a tile that will make the town grow in 20 turns or more unless that's the only choice available.
 
An 8 turn settler, Archer (or spear) pattern sounds good to me.

I am thinking we may want the Archer or settler first though. I believe starting with WC means his initial offensive unit(s) are Archers? I think we would be better off having more units.

Note that if there weren't Archers, a Spear would be correct to build first in Rat Falls rather than an Archer. The reason is that a Spear can defend vs multiple warrior, but an Archer only can kill 1 Warrior. So if he sent 3 warriors in a stack, the Archer would kill one and two Warriors would attack back possibly killing the Archer since the odds are nearly even. A spear and two warriors would have a good chance the at 1 or two Warrior die from the Spear and an even battle vs the Warrior. Chances would be decent that we take no losses.

However, with the potential of Archers coming at us, I would rather have Archers and more than one.

In short, I would have the Capitol and Rat Falls both build Archers as fast as possible - just in case. Two Archers can kill 2 units in the stack and should be fine for an initial rush especially if we have the 2 Warrior as well. After the two Archer, I would go for a Spear. We may not be able to attack the last unit if the enemy would strike back. A Spear to defend means that final unit will have less than 50% odds even if that unit is an Archer. With all Archers (no matter how many), we are going to lose one - If we attack the following archer kills our attacker - if we don't attack the final unit (likely an Archer) attacks one of our vet Archers and will likely kill it).

I hope the statements above is clear, it is getting late and my explanations (and turn logs for that matter) can deteriorate when it is late). ThERat might have another plan, but that is how I would play it.

I would not have Greebley River build the Warrior. I would build Vets from now on - likely I would Switch Greebley River to a Temple. That essentially is starting the prebuild now as I think we would get Masonry before the temple competed. If it did complete, Greeb River could get to size 6 at a lower lux rate.

BTW, you can look at what you could trade on the diplo screen in AW unless you are spefically playing the variant where such information is hidden.

Edit:
One final thing. If the Chinese Warrior wins vs our ours I would not attack it back with our Warrior. If it takes any damage, it will stop to heal allowing time for the Archer built in 2 turns in the Capitol to get to it. If it wins flawlessly then there is a 50% chance we might lose the next warrior vs warrior battle. It might be worth holding off settling one turn - If the AI warrior wins without damage, the new city would be in danger of being razed, since it will get to the new city spot before the Archer.

Also, I think the Archer in the Capitol is required (after looking more closely). 2 Warrior could lose vs a Warrior and then where will we be. There is about a 1/5 chance that we lose both and would lose the new city (or not settle for a while which is also not so good.
 
Just a quick thought:

We could let the reg warrior complete in Greebley River before we start the pre-builds. The reg warrior will still be nice to have as an MP, and should prevent the new city from being razed if we were to get unlucky and lose both the other two warriors.

Also, I rather had it in mind to retreat the fortified warrior back to the choke, but I suppose that will make little difference if we don't get an archer in time.

Wait, I think the capital can build the archer in two turns. From there, it's a three turn journey to the choke city, but I think it could attack the adjacent square on that third turn.The Chinese warrior is 5 moves from attacking the city. So...that would mean we could just build the archer in the capital and forget the 3rd reg warrior from Greebly River. Hmm, choices, choices...
 
Very nice turns, Othniel. :goodjob:

One minor quibble and suggestion. You seemed to use cpt (commerce per turn) interchangably with gpt (gold per turn). Since many of us are used to playing non-AW games where frequently cpt=culture per turn, it might be helpful to consistently use gpt for gold/commerce to eliminate any misunderstanding.

Yes, I know I'm nit-picking. :blush:
 
save

Pre-Turn
switch capital to archer as suggested by Greebley
Greebley River goes for a temple
increase science to 80% at -3gpt, we can afford it at the moment

1.1910BC
decide to settler Alleniel, we get an archer on time and should be safe
start a worker there

IT well, the Chinese warrior beats our warrior, but at least doesn't get promoted and wounded a little
capital get an archer, goes for settler next

2.1870BC
I don't want to raise lux to 50% thus employ a scientist in our capial for the time being
archer goes to front to help out

IT Chinese warrior is wounded and fortifies as expected

3.1830BC
need to raise lux to 40% as Rat Falls grows to 3

IT Chinese warrior steps up to our new city

4.1790BC
as our archer can attack, risk it and do so
archer wins flawless :)
MM Salamanca so that the settler will be done together with growth

5.1750BC
Rats Fall get a spear and goes for archer/spear
the warrior from the front s sent back as MP
lux can go back to 30%

6.1725BC
our front city has an archer/spear inside, but no enemy units visible anyway

IT China shows up with archer/warrior combo

7 1700BC
Chinese suddenly know 4 more techs, they must have traded some
we have a new settler and go for another archer
settler goes north as we need more military to expand south
wandering warrior discovers silks in the tundra, that might be helpful

reduce lux to 20%

8.1675BC
Chinese combo on the doorstep to Alleniel
lux back to 30% as Greebley River grows to 2

IT :eek: reg warrior attacks and takes off 2 hp off the spear, then their archer attacks, redlines our spear and dies
promoting our spear to elite, next combo shows up
Alleniel gets a worker, rax next

9.1650BC
great news as our settler discovers dyes, our 3rd potential lux

IT Chinese combo steps up Alleniel
we get another spear

10.1625
decide to settle on top of the dyes so we don't get bombardment issues later on, that would disconnect our lux
spear marches on the Greebley River and thus we can lower lux to 20%.
Please do note that if the spear moves on, we need to increase lux again


situation
Chinese have a warrior archer combo ready to attack
wheel is done in 4 turns
we should try and connect the new city to get dyes online

rat241625.jpg
 
Roster:

Greebley
ansar -
Othniel
ThERat
Aabraxan- up
TheOverseer714 - on deck
gmaharriet


Looking at it, we might want to swap Alleniel to another worker as we need to improve tiles and connect cites faster
It's currently working the cow

We should also discuss which tech we go for next as the wheel will come in during the next set

If we have horses, we should go for HBR
If we have no horses, do we go for IW?
 
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