Rat 24 - AWE Training Game

I think we should start settling south. We are going to want to grab land there for sure.

Connecting the gems seems a good use for the workers, so you did the same that I would have.

I would prioritize a road south though so we can start settling in that direction. We should also build more workers (2 in the next 10 turns). we are going to want to get water north, I think, and also connect up resource.

I think we will grab the whales eventually with a town 2 NW of them, but that won't be for a while. All new cities I would place to the south.

I think I agree we need to go for IW first which probably means finishing the temple in Greeb River. IW, Writing, Lit seems reasonable for tech.
 
I'm did some rather rough calculations on the GLib pre-build and our tech path.

I can't post for a little while here, but I'll edit my thoughts back into this post later on...

EDIT:
Here are my calcs -->

My Caveat:
In order to do this, I made some pretty big assumptions. It's quite a task to forecast a civ's research capacity over a long period of time with dynamic elements of pop, tiles improvements, lux slider settings, + or - gpt options, etc. Throw in estimating a city's shield capacity with its own changing levels of pop, tile improvements, not to mention corruption, and I realized how tough this could be to be precise! ;) So, this is pretty rough.

Basically, this is a "worst-case" analysis and many things could be sped up based on how we want to play it.

Goals: These calcs will hopefully lend guidance to whether:
-We build the temple in Greebley or start the Palace pre-build ASAP
-We plunge straight for Lit or can dally a little along the way

Assumptions:
-We'll run science at max (currently 70%) but without going into -gpt situations
-Our actual number of beaker per turn using a 70% science rate will stay at same current level (big assumption but worst case, remember ;))
-Joining workers to Greebley River will not happen until it gets to size 5
-Letting Greebley River work Rat Falls BGs will not happen
-Greebley River's corruption % will not change
-Greebley River will change temple build to palace, giving it +60 shields toward the GLib
-Raising the science slider throught hooking up more luxes was not included


Research Path/Capacity:
Currently we can run 70% science without going into -gpt. That translates out to a beaker per turn rate of between ~13-14. (Rounding issues)

Based on that Rate, We can Research:
-Iron Working in 12 turns
-Writing in 19 turns
-Math in 19 turns
-Literature in 21 turns

Total : 12 + 19 + 19 + 21 = 71 turns

Now, it's very likely that China and England will research at least Writing and possibly Maths ahead of us, driving down the beaker costs of those techs. Also, more contacts :rolleyes: will also drive down costs.

Greebley River:
Currently at pop 3 making a measly 2 shields per turn (1 lost to corruption)
Corruption is at 17% level.

Greebley River will max out at 10 shields pre-corruption (2 forests, 3 mined grass, 1 mined BG, city square). This should translate out to 8 shields per turn post-corruption.

Changing the temple build to palace means we have 340 shields left to make (400 GLib - 60 temple).

Ok, Greebley River will not be at pop 6 or 8 shield per turn capacity any time soon. It needs 3 grass mines to be built (1 is started) and needs to gain 3 pop points. Those 3 mines will take ~20 turns for one worker to make.

During those 20 turns, it should grow to size 5, at which I'm assuming we'll add in a worker. Therefore, for the first 20 turns I estimate it can make an average of 5 shields per turn (optimistically).

After 20 turns:
Greebley River will have made an additionally 100 shields, leaving us 240 shields more for the GLib.

At this point, we add in a worker and MM the tiles worked to get the 8 shields per turn (and the city will make 0fpt surplus).

According to our worst-case research, we have ~51 turns before Lit completes. 260 shields / 8 shields per turn = ~33 turns.

We hit the 400 shields in 33 turns, leaving us 19 turns short of Lit.

Conclusions:
I think these numbers are rather deceiving i.e. worst case scenario. :p

I strongly expect the tech cost to be significantly lower. Also, our overall research capacity will almost certainly improve, especially once we hook up the luxes.

Of course, we don't have to switch the temple pre-build at all. That would force us to build 60 more shields for the pre-build, but lower the risk of us not getting Lit in time.

However, even though the "calcs" didn't say so, I think we can reasonably risk doing the following:
-Switching the temple in Greebley R. to a palace. We don't have to--and the temple has it's uses--but I really think the risk is low of us not getting Lit in time.
-Research all of the mentioned techs, starting with Iron Working first. Doing IW first will give more time for those other techs to lower in cost.

Alternatively, we can either build the temple and/or cut out Maths or IW from our research path. Certainly cutting out the techs is not my preference.

Comments, Ideas, Modifications? Again, this was very rough, so I could be way off somewhere with my math. :)

Perhaps the great number of assumptions means this simply confuses the options further... :lol:
 
I will summarize the plan for my turn-set. After Masonry, I choose IW. I make at least 2 more workers. Road and settle beyond the chokepoint. I guess I need to download the spreadsheet for Salamanca, or someone needs to lay it out in english as to what squares need worked each turn. I guess I could re-read this whole thread for clues. I guess the other question is, do we ever go on the offensive, or do we stay hunkered down waiting to see what the AI does next?
 
I would not go on the offensive. Remember we met the English, that means they will send their current units at you. You can figure on a cluster of 2-6 maybe?

For that reason, I also would make sure you have your roads in place so you can switch units to whatever direction they are heading. Isolated cities could fall if the rush is heavier.
 
I don't think we're ready to go on the offensive yet. We need roads in place and enough of a stack that our offensive does not simply result in lots of losses. We will eventually go on the offensive, but not just yet. Just because we're All-War doesn't mean that we should needlessly lose troops.

I agree that Masonry, then IW is the way to go.

Othniel, nice analysis. :goodjob: A comment made earlier by either Greebley or ThERat (I forget which) leads me to believe that we may be wiser to go ahead and finish the temple. That will provide some happiness in Greebley Falls while they build our Glorious Great Library and may keep us from having to adjust the slider to accomodate that one city.
 
Finished my turn set, all went well. Here is the save and several screenshots:

Here is my turn-log:
Spoiler :
Pre-flight check: Blurry Screenshot of Salamanca spreadsheet, MSWord up and running for turn log, CivAssist 2 up and running.
Added numbers to each city name to help organize domestic advisor.
Military:
Warriors 4
Archers 4
Spears 3
Non combat:
Worker 4

Salamanca=>settler, 1 turn
Rat Falls=>Archer, 3 turns
Greebley River=>temple, 3 turns
Alleniel=>barracks, 3 turns
Aabras Folly=>worker, 7 turns
Cattansaraugus=>barracks=>20 turns
Press enter

IBT: 1 English warrior steps into view
Research comes in on Masonry=>Iron Working in 8 at -1gpt with 2 scientists, lux at 0%
Salamanca settler=>Archer
1325 BC move settler towards choke, workers to road gems
IBT English warrior steps forward onto BG, English finish Colossus for a ludicrously early GA
1300 BC kill English warrior clean with Archer who promotes to Elite v(1-0) see next lone English warrior, move spear and settler on same spot as eArcher
IBT English warrior moves away, Rat Falls vArcher=>worker, Greebley River temple=>palace(GLib pre-build)
1275 BC move vArcher to Greebley River, vSpear to Aleniel, continue eSpear and eArcher to escort settler
IBT Alleniel Barracks=>vArcher
1250 BC continue moves, otherwise, zzz
IBT Salamanca vArcher=>Settler, Rat Falls worker=>vSpear
1225 BC Gmawanda founded outside of chokepoint=>walls. 3 English rWarriors loitering nearby
IBT 3 English rWarriors step up to Gmawanda, gems are hooked up
1200 BC eArcher kills English rWarrior, loses 1 hp.
IBT Greebley get 1st expansion which pops gh and we get 2 barb warriors, Aabra’s Folly worker=>worker English rWarriors bypass Gmawanda
1175 BC dispatch barbs with Greebley and Rat Falls garrison vArcher lose 1 hp, rWarrior loses 1 hp. vArcher kills English rWarrior clean v(2-0), eArcher kills kills English rWarrior, losing 2 hp e(1-0), spots lone Chinese rWarrior on nearby hill
IBT Chinese rWarrior approaches wounded eArcher, another English rWarrior shows up on same hill
1150 BC move exposed units back into towns to heal
IBT Salamanca settler=>vArcher, worker finishes chop near Cattansaraugus
1125 BC zzz
IBT English and Chinese rWarriors stes up to Gmawanda. Iron Working comes in, We have Iron! choose Writing next. Rat Falls vSpear=>vArcher
1100 BC vArcher kills Chinese rWarrior losing 1 hp v(3-0), eArcher kills English rWarrior, losing 1 hp e(2-0)

I went 5-0 (3-0 veteran, 1 promotion), (2-0 elite) against enemy AI’S, no leaders created. (2-0 barbs), overall 7-0. Our military has:
Warriors 4
Archers 6
Spears 4
Non combat:
Settler 1
Worker 6

Cities:
Salamanca=>archer, 3 turns
Rat Falls=>Archer, 4 turns
Greebley River=>palace(GLib pre-build), 55 turns
Alleniel=>archer, 1 turn
Aabras Folly=>worker, 3 turns
Cattansaraugus=>barracks, 10 turns
Gmawanda=>walls, 5 turns

I think we need some forest chops to clear around our new town and road for more towns. I sent 2 workers to hook up the iron, I don't see us being able to afford mass upgrades without seriously damaging our research. I sent the new Settler towards the south because nowhere beyond the choke is safe, and I think we can settle the polluted forest tile with no penalty. The next player can change that. I think Othniels spreadsheet isn't matching what I'm seeing, but we are getting a settler and archer over 8 turns in Salamanca. I only built 1 new town, but with some spears guarding our workers and settlers, we can expand. I'd also like to see a settlement keeping the 2nd iron for us.

 
Things look pretty good. There is some micro-managing I think we should do:

Greebley River shouldn't be down to 1 food. This is our wonder city and we have a long way to go. Let it grow rapidly.

I would give it the Cow. It is certainly more important than Allenial. I would also give it the BG near Rat Falls. The Palace will still be 46 turns - long enough for us to get Lit.

I would MM it every time it grows. It can be at +3 food and I would give it the BG from Rat Falls. That would put it at 46 dropping further when we get to size 4.

Note that Allenial was working a Sea square with a Grassland still free. I would definitely have switched that. Food is very important at the start of the game because maximizing food will give us more towns. I think 2 Food is therefore better than 1 food and 2 commerce.

Militarily, things look pretty good. However since we are going to want to settle past the choke, we need more Spears for the new towns. I would switch one build.

I think I would have sent the settler that was last built toward the choke, rather than the poor spot it is headed to. In fact I would move it toward the choke and not settle it where it is. Next players decision though - that is justs a suggestion. :D The spot its in is rather poor and will remain so until we get map making.

I am inclined to go for Lit next and then Math after that. Getting the GLib quickly gives us all techs more quickly when the GLib is finally built.
 
This is my "got it". I'll take a look at the save and probably be back with more questions.

One thing I noticed in Greebley's comments, "I am inclined to go for Lit next and then Math after that." I looked at the save with CA2, and we don't yet have writing. I assume then that we'd research writing next and then Lit.

I'll return after studying the save file. Any additional comments and suggestions will be very welcome. :)
 
Nice work, Overseer.

Greebley said:
I am inclined to go for Lit next and then Math after that. Getting the GLib quickly gives us all techs more quickly when the GLib is finally built.

I'm inclined to go Writing --> Maths --> Lit. Actually, since we just started Writing, I'm ok with getting Maths before Writing.

I'm of the strong persuasion that we won't finish the GLib anytime soon--especially with finishing the temple--so that we can easily grab Maths (for Cats) first.

This settler-factory thing just doesn't seem to be working out. :sad: I'm going to play around with a save, probably from Aabraxan's set, and see what gives.

Also, I was going to mention this before but forgot... In Cattansaraugas (wow, that's a mouthful), we're building that rax. I'm actually in favor of dedicating that city to a reg warrior <--> worker cycle indefinitely. I know that ThERat mentioned not building regular units, a practice that I fully support for statistical reasons...mostly support. :p

I like reg warriors simply for MP purpose alone. Plus, we always need workers. I think that Catta... is too poor of a location to build a rax, especially when we are contemplating a palace jump that would make it hopelessly corrupt. It just seems more efficient to make reg warriors for MP's and then get the workers. Perhaps we could change the current build to a reg Archer or something if other people agree with me??
 
Ok, I had a look at the save. I agree with Othniel about Catta... being a poor location for a rax, so perhaps workers and reg MPs may be good. Also, noted that Aabra's folly (pop 1) is set for a worker in 3, but growth in 7. I plan to change that to a regular warrior for MP and then a worker.

I checked out the changes in tiles for Greebley River, and IIRC we would get growth in 4, palace in 46, but it changes an archer build in Rat Falls from 4 to 5.

I'll try to get the iron hooked up as early as possible.

I plan to change the archer build in Alleniel to a spear to accompany the settler already on the ground to the south.

We haven't had a dot map for awhile, so I came up with 2 different versions for the new southern towns. While both emphasize placement to capture the 2nd iron and the silks, Dotmap#1 is more faithful to CxxC spacing, but 2 of the towns would be on flat ground next to mountains. The Dotmap #2's spacing is not precisely CxxC, but would build the 2 westernmost towns on hills for added defense. I'd appreciate some input on preferred locations.

Dotmap #1
Spoiler :
Rat24_1100bc_dotmap1.JPG


Dotmap #2
Spoiler :
Rat24_1100bc_dotmap.JPG
 
England is wasting their GA to build tons of reg warriors :smoke:

:goodjob: another solid turnset and on top of that, we have iron. It is true that we won't have the cash to go for mass upgrades. Whatever coins we save during the GLib phase, we need for deficit research later on. Thus, I think hooking up the iron as soon as we can is a very good idea. Also, an archer army is very weak, has no real defense (it will get attacked just like MW would get attacked due to def 1).

Let's hope we can form a sword army soon and lay some waste on the enemy. We also need to find horses some time.

Soon, we will have 2 luxes hooked up, this will really help research. I agree we could go for writing - maths - lit, we should check the research times for north once writing is in.

I also would move that settler past the choke, the current location is very weak and will actually make corruption worse for some good towns we have. So, gmaharriet, you might want to move that settler past the choke, maybe settle on a hill. In this case, I usually build a wall first
 
since I cross posted with gma, I want to point out a few things about the dot maps. I surely prefer dotmap suggestion 2.

I mentioned in the other post, front towns on hills a re far easier to defend. Behind walls on a hill, our defenders can slaughter plenty enemies.

Dotmap 1 would be fine except for the city near the iron. The city would be tough to defend and being next to hill and mountains, the attackers have a good time and can;t easily get attacked by us on a counter.

In addition, the resources can't get pillaged as well once we settle on top.
 
Any preference in which order they are settled? I'm thinking the hill next to the silks, as it would discourage the AI from settling the iron by being too close to us. I'm open to suggestions.
 
I don't know if you guys already noticed, but we can see Chinese borders to the south. :)
gmaharriet said:
Any preference in which order they are settled? I'm thinking the hill next to the silks, as it would discourage the AI from settling the iron by being too close to us. I'm open to suggestions.
Yeah, that does discourage the AI from settling there.

I'd settle there first. :)
 
I don't know if you guys already noticed, but we can see Chinese borders to the south. :)

Good call! :thumbsup: No, I had not noticed. That makes things much more interesting.

I'm fine with the Dotmap #2 for the reasons already discussed. I do hate having to settle on powerful tiles like Iron considering that will likely be the future core. Oh well, no biggie. ;) Also, yep, go for the silks first.

Let's prioritize getting a road running through the choke to the silks, more than anything for ease of movement. I'm not sure what our workers are up to at the moment without looking at the save, but hopefully we can get them working on this project. I consider it of first importance.
 
Ya, the hills are a good argument for Dot map 2.

If ppl want to go for Math first and then we can do it that way. Not sure how much we will have to slow the GLib compared to max speed. We can probably get it in 35-40 turns? We grow in 4 and then again in 7 I think. That will add 2 and then 1 shield.

We are researching writing. When we finish we can directly compute how many turns it will take, but if it is close to the numbers Othniel mentions, then I think it will be delaying the GLib by some amount.

OTOH, we are not in a huge rush for the GLib here so going for Math works pretty well. We certainly want Catapults. We may end up letting Rat Falls keep some of the BG in that case.

We are close enough to Swords that I would not build an Archer Army if we get a leader Archer armies are really kind of poor. We can build he Army to use the leader (for a chance at another one, but not fill it until we get the Swords).
 
Let's prioritize getting a road running through the choke to the silks, more than anything for ease of movement. I'm not sure what our workers are up to at the moment without looking at the save, but hopefully we can get them working on this project. I consider it of first importance.

There are 3 workers in the north trying to connect both the dyes and iron, which I estimate will be complete in approx 6 turns. It will also take about 6 turns to get the settler on the ground to gmawanda.

The 3 workers in the south are currently mining the BG south of Alleniel in 2 turns, then will road the plains tile to gmawanda...1 turn to move and 1 turn to road. I plan to chop the forest south of gmawanda, both to speed the rax there and shorten the time to build that road. Then there is a clear plains tile to be roaded, leading to both the silks and the hill to be settled.

I'm hoping all of that will come together to speed the settler on his way and we should have another spear and a couple of archers, with another settler close to completion in Salamanca.

Question... By the time all of that happens and the next settler completes, do we want to turn Salamanca into a sword/settler factory, or stay with archers in Salamanca and build our swords elsewhere?

Edit: In response to Greebley's post, I'll stop for a status report when writing completes so we can discuss what needs to be done to get the GLib at the right moment.
 
Question... By the time all of that happens and the next settler completes, do we want to turn Salamanca into a sword/settler factory, or stay with archers in Salamanca and build our swords elsewhere?

Maybe do a Spear/Settler factory? I'm still hoping to work out the kinks of the 8-turn Spear (Archer) / Settler factory. Swords would really throw things off, but Spears should have value for quite some time to come.
 
Back
Top Bottom