Rat 41 CCM - AW a first attempt

[ThERat]

I have played to the point where we revolted and get a new government next turn.

Do we want to get monarchs or theocracy as Civinator suggests?

Turnlog so far

Pre turn
swap Rome to a granary, we want to finish it and grow before we revolt
send MGL back to Turin

IT we get a first Yogi, hope he helps us bag some monks

Turn 1 625AD
rush the granary in Turin with the MGL to free up MGL chances
beat two warriors at Turin
take out 3 Viking units losing two units
at Pyongyang defeat 3 units, no losses

move two unit over the mountain to spot another Korean town
If we want to attack we need to have more fast units there

[8-2]

IT more enemy troops show up
we get a catapult in Rome

Turn 2 650AD
defeat redline retreated chariot with yogi and get a monk that expands borders at Pisa
defeat warrior at Venice
kill 3 units at Pyong yong, we do have a lot of legions in that city now

[13-2]

IT defeat a phant at Pyong yong
many slow Turkish units show up

[14-2]

Turn 3 - 675AD
defeat 2 Egyptian war chariots near Cheju
take out 4 units around Pyong yong losing an ancient cavalry

revolt and we suffer -2pop everywhere
several cities starve but we have enough food to compensate

[20-3]

IT two Indo phants block the Turkish slow units' path and they wander to a place harder to hit them

Turn 4 - 700AD
take out a bow with our missionary, the bow was on a hill behind a river, but the missionary keeps his second movement
to retreat to town after that (this is an important feature to note when fighting this situation)
only such units can do that, attack where others would lose their movement points like a unroaded forest

Decide to slug it out with the Turkish in an all out attack
first take out one Indo elephant, take out first small stack and go 4:1 gaining a MGL
second stack is obliterated 7:1 gaining a slave.

granted there were only 5 spears and the rest all defense 1 units

[33-5]

 

[vmxa]

Civinator said this:

(Interesting that your choose in your special "Always War"-situation, when you must research all techs yourselves and can need all autoproduced units you can get, is monarchy.)

I think that what he is missing about research in AW is that it is not done so much with superior structures. It is done with numbers. CCM may alter that some, but having scores of towns is the method for us to get more research than the AI.

It is also the way we deal with units. They will get theirs from autoproduced units and a dozen or so towns. We will have 50 towns making troops. The hard part is to get to critical mass.

It gets harder and harder for them to take a town back and then they are only working on towns we recently took from them or founded. They never get to attack the core again. If they take a town, we will take it back eventually.

If we are on a continent, we gain all of it and they cannot even land on it. While they have to try to fight off our invasions. Those invasion with be stronger and stronger. The thing that works agains them in AW is that they will stop doing things to boost their empire and only do war things.

IOW it helps us to have them in war all the time, it slows down their research. If it was DG they could may be able to both. They willbe suffering fromnot being able to make settlers also, but have little means to capture towns.

It does not matter to me if we go Theo or Monarchy.

 

[Northern Pike]

Civinator makes an interesting case for theocracy. Given the number of units we need in this game, theocracy's superiority over monarchy in autoproduced units is a marginal factor, or even nonexistent if we're able to build Royal Tournament (a cheap Great Wonder available only in monarchy). Monasteries are obviously valuable, though. I'd rather stick with our instinct that theocracy's tile penalty costs too much in the long run, and revolt to monarchy; but if it doesn't work, we can give theocracy a full trial in the next game.

 

[ThERat]

ok, monarchy it is...

I am most worried that we have not been able to expand yet, something to do with that irritating landmass of mountains. Next game surely would be 5 bio years....

 

[Northern Pike]

My principal concern is that we're about to lose the Great Library, much earlier than in C3C. The situation relative to C3C is even worse than it looks, since in CCM there are so many more second-age techs that the GLib won't be giving us, so to speak.

I'm just thinking ahead here, but if this game doesn't work because we fall too far behind in research, we might ask Civinator to put together a special AW version of CCM, with the GLib lasting at least until University in the second age. I assume that would only take him a few minutes.

 

[vmxa]

You could probably do that in the editor.


Edit simple change to what ever tech you want and save as a new name like CCMAW.biq and you are good to go.

 

[M60A3TTS]

Are all forms of artillery autoproduced or can we build our own at some point?

 

[vmxa]

I am not sure, it would have to be quite late in the game. We would have bombers of some sort before that.

 

[Northern Pike]

I haven't played far enough into the game to answer definitively. Zeppelins are a bombardment unit of a sort, and normally produced, I believe. I'm not aware that any artillery or bombardment type apart from ships is normally produced before that. Civinator has said that the concept in CCM is that artillery types are elite units to be autoproduced in small numbers, basically.

 

[Northern Pike]

You could probably do that in the editor.


Edit simple change to what ever tech you want and save as a new name like CCMAW.biq and you are god to go.

Thanks--very useful to know.

 

[vmxa]

I don't remember any unit that you can make, but that does not mean there is not one. Artillery upgrade to the 75 and pretty sure they are auto only. Like NP said Zepps are first up as bombers and you use them like you would artillery.

Mainly I used a few to ping boats and weaken troops. Not making so many that there were a big factor. I cannot even recall, if they are lethal. I seem to recall some forms of bombers have lethal on land, but not sea or ther other way around.

We will hopefully find out later. If Ihad the game up I could check, but I took the day off of playing. Go to save my strength as the boss lady comes back in the morning. I had a nice month off while it lasted, but she ran out of welcome in Cali.

 

[ThERat]

turnset continued:

IT in the far north we win with our warrior against a sword but lose a pike defending our stack against a phant
we get chivalry and alchemy
and we become monarchs

[34-6]

Turn 5 - 725AD
I decide to go for engineering first as the river crossings can be a real pain
minimum research at 10% though as we are bleeding in money (-30gpt at 10%)
Rome is straight away working on philosophers stone (currently takes 13 turns)

rush royal garrison in Pisa

take out 2 units at the Korean front gain 1 monk
upgrade 3 units to knights, prepare to assault southern Korean city

[36-6]

IT Poland finishes Hagia Sophia


Turn 6 - 750AD
more Egyptian chariots are showing up
defeat a small stack of 4 but lose 2 units
defeat spear at Pisa

we are ready to attack that Korean city next turn

[41-8]

IT Indochina surely is our biggest foe and they bring on more units

Turn 7 - 775AD
Assualt on Pusan
lose an ancient cavalry, but defeat 3 spears and 1 archer, gain 1 monk and 1 slave/worker
pop borders using a monk. We can now see another Korean city and Russian land

with the taxmen in Pusan, we now are on positive income

defeat 3 Indochina units, but have to expose an enslaver

[48-9]

IT more elephants turn up at the Korean theatre, our exposed enslaver is not attacked though

Turn 8 - 800AD
defeat 6 units mainly at Korean lands, there are more units, but I don't want to expose units to run into counterattacks
we need to move some fast units to Pusan before expanding from there

[54-9]

IT Indochina ,moves their 4 units into much better position for us to attack. they seem to think our cities are too strong as they don't attack

Turn 9 - 825AD
defeat 6 units at our fronts losing a legion against a phant

[60-10]

Turn 10 - 850AD
take out 2 Turkish units, leave the rest alone.
Try and get more unit to Pusan as we should expand in that direction if you ask me.

Finally tally [62-10]


Our capital will get philosophers stone and two free techs in 7 turns
lets keep our fingers crossed. I would take engineering and gunpowder as free techs and then
go for clockworks and PP as there are good city improvements to be had.

Our research is abysmal currently but Russia has a lot of money which we could siphon off for our 70% research rate.

 

[Northern Pike]

Good work against the Turkish stacks.

I agree with going for Philosopher's Stone, given that we got Alchemy as a bonus tech. It probably means that we've written off Royal Tournament, though. Everyone's building it now, including the Siamese in their capital.

Gunpowder is an obvious choice when we build PS, but I'm not sure about Clockworks and PP after that. Can we really afford that detour off the path to cav? I'm even having doubts about Engineering as our other PS tech, since it isn't on the way to cav either and kills off the Royal Stables. Possibly we should just take Gunpowder and Theology from the PS and tolerate the river effects for a while.

We should get a one-turn roading stack to the front, to connect Pyongyang to Pusan and to the city we'll be attacking to its NW. Florence doesn't need any more improved tiles at the moment and we can take workers from there.

I'd say that Cheju shouldn't complete the long, slow knight build it's on, but should switch to a granary or slavery.

 

[ThERat]

I am fine with the team decision to beeline for cavalry if we want to. The Royal Tournament is a nice wonder to have but I think we can survive without it.

Two free techs would be awesome in my mind.

By the way, there are 2 more luxuries to be had and it would be great if we can eventually have them and reduce luxury to 10%. I found in my own games that 10% is the best rate while having 70% research.

Most important for us currently is to get more cities and reduce unit support that way too.

The worker crew at Florence is on the way through but is currently chopping a forest to speed up slavery. Let that finish and send a roading crew down to Korea.

 

[vmxa]

Wonder how much land is west of us, given the water by Pulsan. Normally we can handle the lsow expansion at this stage, because we would be getting cav armies and speed up. That won't be the case in CCM.

At least it seems we are finding the end of the rockies. Work crew at the front will need great care and increased protection. We will will also have to deal with the ever increasing travel distance to the front. One of the side effects of wider spacing is longer times for replacements.

 

[Civinator]

You could probably do that in the editor.
Edit simple change to what ever tech you want and save as a new name like CCMAW.biq and you are good to go.

No, it´s not so simple to change the CCM biq properly. If you do only these settings, you will get a nasty surprise during gameplay as the player´s data also must be adjusted well. And you have to use the correct editor otherwise you are loosing your option for SGLs.

If you want such a biq I can do one for you.

 

[vmxa]

I do not about weither we need it or not. I do think it is a nearly worthless wonder expiring in the same age you get it. In a std game it goes about a full age. Given how many more techs there are in CCM that is probably too strong.

You know what you have and what you are trying to do, so I am not going to second guess it. Now for AW it would be a big boost to get the first tier in the next age.

Not surprised the simple change would be an issue. I have no idea what you mean by the right editor, only have one.

 

[vmxa]

Looks like we are straining our econ with unit cost. 116gpt and at 70% taxes we only have 13gpt left. This means we are going to have take care with our production or not have any research at all.

In fact there does not seem to be any reason to run 10% research at the pace it yields. May as well go to a lone scientist and pile up more gold to pay unit support.

Edit:

Lets look to see, if we can dump a few of the archers in places that are not going to be attack as they are no longer useful on offense. I do know if we can dump any as the MP value may worth to unit support. It seems that we are better off with strongest units we can have and keeping them busy.

 

[Greebley]

For the large maps and AW, the real trick was to up the amount that a tech cost. The reason was for the human player time to grow before the AI ran away in tech.

It may be that this is part of the issue here as well - or it might not help if the human cannot conquer cities to grow (since you can't simply settle faster).

If always war doesn't work, you can try the variant where just can't end wars, but can start at peace, but also must be at war with at least one civ.

 

[ThERat]

the reason why I ran with 10% science is simple. Due to the fact that we got 70% maximum for any of the options, the game will simply reset your setting to 10% science every turn of you chose to run 0/20% and this is the same for the AI. Due to fairness reasons (as the AI can't use the trick to always reset the values) I kept it at 10/20.

Soon we will run 70/10 anyway and then it's not an issue. We will burn units while at the same time gain more cities and unit support while drop to acceptable levels.
Russia does have money, so we can gain and support our deficit research from there.