Rat 41 CCM - AW a first attempt

[Elephantium]

Do you guys want to try for both? I'm confident that we can get Newton's, but going for Cope's may be more of a stretch. I'll post again once Newton's comes in -- the situation then may make the decision easy.

 

[Northern Pike]

Why are we building a Christian Community in Modena? Wouldn't a Wat or Windmill or Roman Symbol be more helpful?

We still care about our culture, since a lot of cities will have the opportunity to flip on us by the end of the game. So Roman Symbols and Christian Communities, as our two cheapest cultural builds, should be our first two choices in all new or newly conquered cities unless military structures are tactically necessary (as they often will be, of course).

For the same reason, I hope you'll re-build Roman Symbols in all the towns that lost their free RS when the Senate went obsolete, boring though it is.

Newton first, and then a re-assessment of our chances for Copernicus, sounds fine.

Edit: None of the civs we know have reached University, so they're all at least two and a fraction techs away from defense-5 units. We may be able to finish off the northern enemies, or at least finish the Carths and cripple the Siamese, before they get there.

 

[Elephantium]

Have we actually suffered any flips? I had started to get the impression that culture flips were disabled.

 

[Elephantium]

Here's my turnlog so far:

IBT:

Lots of movement and shore bombardments but no unit attacks.
Milan: Knights (and MM for 25spt)
Pusan: Knights
Genoa: Knights
Namp'o: Knights
Turin: Uni -> Arque
Smolensk: Christian Community -> Wat

The Chinese complete Buddhistic Art.
Mayans complete Meso Christianization.

Turn 1 (1585 AD):

Rostov/Moscow:
Lose eBombarde vs. enemy jumbo 0-1
Remedy that with treb 1-1
Knight retreats from Russian arque
Second knight finishes the job 2-1

Lots of units are on automove!

Carthage:
eKnight kills Arq 3-1
eKnight retreats
eKnight dies 3-2
eKnight retreats and reveals the first rArque
eKnight retreats
eKnight retreats
3 eKnights from Rusicade kill 3 Arques 6-2
vKnight kills Arque 7-2
vKnight kills Arque and promotes 8-2
vKnight kills LB 9-2
vKnight kills 2/4 LB 10-2 and ...



Building Supply Center (Incense).

IBT:

Lots of movement again. Looks like Indochina is heading for Carthage and Rusicade
Carthage riots.
Hippo Regius: Roman Symbol -> Slavery
Cheju: Knights
Sabratha: Christian Community -> Knight
Japanese complete Himeji Castle.

Turn 2 (1590 AD):

Moscow:
Treb kills Russian LB 11-2
Monk preaches to Bombarde crew; they kill themselves rather than convert 12-2

Carthage:
eKnight kills Carthaginian Knight 13-2
eKnight kills Carthaginian Enslaver 14-2

Padova:
eEnslaver kills archer, no slave or leader 15-2
eKnight dies vs. rPike 15-3
eKnight dies vs. rZerk 15-4
eKnight finishes off the pike 16-4
rKnight retreats
rKnight finishes off the zerk 17-4

Culture-bomb Carthage. The borders are still constrained by unseen Carthaginian cities.

Krasnoyarsk:
Lose an eKnight killing a lone LB in the open 18-5

IBT:

At Krasnoyarsk:
Egypt knight retreats
Egypt knight dies 19-5
Carthage - resistance ends
Milan: Knights
Leptis Magna: Roman Symbol -> Arq
Naples: Knights
Uskadar: Arqs
Florence: Windmill -> Arq
Turin: Arqs
Egypt finishes Kaaba in Thebes.
Indochinese start Holy Book Printed, but the Polish finish it in Warsaw.

Turn 3 (1595 AD):

Kill a Russian LB near Krasnoyarsk, then return to the stack. 20-5
Padova:
Lose Legion vs. Pike, no damage 20-6
Knight kills pike 21-6
Lose Knight vs. Zerk 21-7
Lose Praet vs. Zerk 21-8
Knight kills zerk 22-8

Near Modena:
Kill two Russian LBs with the mountain pass Knights 24-8

IBT:

lose eknight near carthage 24-9
Zerk dies vs. arq near Padova 25-9
Istanbul: Arq -> Knight
Genoa: Knights
Namp'o: Knights
Antalya: Granary -> Roman Symbol
Padova: Granary -> Roman Symbol

Turn 4 (1600 AD):

Hippo Regius:
Knight kills Knight 26-9
Knight kills knight 27-9

Move various troops.

I have stacks in place to attack the new capitals of both Rome and Carthage next turn.

 

[Northern Pike]

That sounds good, apart from some bad luck in reasonable attacks.

I don't recall that we've had any flips in this game, but they're not disabled in CCM; it can definitely happen.

 

[ThERat]

great MM Elephantium
It seems Carthage is losing money though

Is it possible to reduce lux to 10% already now that we have 3 luxes? I think we ought to head for that so our research becomes finally sustainable in the long term. We could then use some extra cash to rush stuff.

I agree to build cheap culture, culture flips are definitely on but less prevalent as we have a lot of culture via buildings and bombs.

 

[ThERat]

Elephantium, do remember that ballistics obsolete forts, so do build some monarchy barracks in cities that do not have castles and are building units. Else we will end up with some regular troops.

 

[Northern Pike]

Is it possible to reduce lux to 10% already now that we have 3 luxes?

I don't know, but since CCM marketplaces lose the bonus effect that starts with the third lux in straight Civ, I'm not optimistic. Civinator wants to make us build all the cool new happiness improvements.

 

[ThERat]

That's true, but in my games, around that time I am able to reduce lux to that level. The initial slow growth is something you have to accept. It also seems that we can't ever go to 0% lux due to all the multipliers just like RaR.

 

[vmxa]

I presume you mean attack new capitols of Russia and Carthage. Town Centers boost lux 50%. so when we get a fourth those will help.

I cannot really recall flips ocurring, but not that much experience. I would think that Moscow not flipping is a good indication that flips are not a huge issue.

 

[Elephantium]

Spoiler :

IBT after Turn 4:

Indochinese want to talk. We refuse.
Carthage LB forces our Knight to retreat
Zerk suicides vs. pike 28-9
Carthage: Supply Center (Incense) -> Christian Community
Milan: Knight -> Royal Barracks
Edirne: Windmill -> Knight
Bursa: Academy -> Roman Symbol
Wonsan: Knights
Pusan: Knight -> Roman Symbol
Namp'o: Roman Symbol -> Royal Barracks
Florence: Arque -> Royal Barracks
Cheju: Knights
Aydin: Arques
Turin: Arque -> Royal Barracks
Antalya: Roman Symbol -> Royal Barracks
Bologna: Slavery -> Roman Symbol

Turn 5 (1605 AD):

St. Petersburg:
Lose Bombarde vs. Arque 28-10
Treb retreats
Lose 3 eKnights vs. Arques. One of them promotes 28-13
Lose 2 vKnights vs. Arques 28-15
Knight retreats
Lose ePraet 28-16
Lose Legion, no damage 28-17
Lose eMissionary 28-18
We're out of attackers here, so I'll have to bring in a fresh batch of knights. I knew it was going to be bloody, but this was a disaster

Utica:
Knight retreats after dinging the Arque for 1hp
eKnight dies redlining 2nd Arque 28-19
vKnight retreats, doing 1hp
vKnight kills pike 29-19
vKnight dies vs. arque, no damage 29-20
vKnight retreats, no damage
vKnight dies, arque redlined 29-21
vKnight dies, arque promotes 29-22
knight retreats, no damage
Knight dies, arque redlined 29-23
3 Knights kill arques 32-23


Culture-bomb Utica.

Krasnoyarsk - there are three enemy units in the field. A Knight, an LB, and an MDI.
eKnight kills MDI 33-23
vKnight kills rKnight, promotes 34-23
vKnight kills LB, promotes 35-23

Lots of Indochinese units have gathered around Hippo Regius. This IBT might also be bloody.

Looking at dropping lux to 10% - we lose a LOT of happiness in some of our larger towns that way. I'll leave it at 20% for now.
I do drop science a bit, Ballistics still due in 2.
Upgrade the Clan into a Settler. Where do we want to send him? My instinct is to settle near Padova and push our borders towards that fjord. Maybe one of the grasslands next to the game forest?


IBT:

Siamese Knight dies vs. our knight 36-23
Jumbo dies vs. arq at Hippo Regius 37-23
Russian LB dies vs. MDI at Krasnoyarsk 38-23
Viking chariot dies vs. pike 39-23
Utica riots due to resistance, of course.
Pyongyang: Uni -> Royal Barracks
Leptis Magna riots, probably due to some Knights I shifted to Hippo Regius last turn
Bursa: Roman Symbol -> Royal Barracks
Naples: Knight -> Royal Barracks
Pusan: Roman Symbol -> Windmill
Genoa: Royal Barracks -> Knight
Bologna: Roman Symbol -> Royal Barracks
Orenburg: Slavery -> Windmill
Padova: Roman Symbol -> Windmill
Modena: Roman Symbol -> Christian Community

Turn 6 (1610 AD):

Kill a Fire Lancer at Utica 40-23
Risk e* Yogi on a Jumbo at Uskadar. Jumbo redlined, but we lose. 40-24
Also at Uskadar - MDI forces Knight to retreat.
At Moscow, kill a jumbo with a knight 41-24
Kill a second Fire Lancer at Utica. 42-24
Kill a knight that Egypt landed between Naples and Venice. 43-24
Kill LB near Hadrumetum (W of Utica) 44-24
Kill Siam Knight near Hippo Regius 45-24
Kill Zerk near Padova 46-24
At Moscow, kill a jumbo with a treb 47-24
Bombarde kills second jumbo 48-24
Missionary kills off redlined jumbo at Uskadar, no converts 49-24

Hippo Regius (stack of 2 Fire lancers and 2 LBs):
Lose Knight vs. Fire Lancer 49-25
Kill Fire Lancer w/Knight 50-25
Lose another Knight killing the wounded Fire Lancer 51-26
Yogi Bear converts one of the LBs 52-26

Hadrumetum:
eKnight kills pike 53-26
eKnight dies on pike 53-27
eKnight kills pike 54-27
misclick sends eKnight astray - hope he doesn't die in the IBT
eKnight kills redlined pike 55-27 and...


Drop science to 20%, Ballistics due in 1.

IBT:

Enemy knight suicides vs. Uskadar 56-27
Russian LB gets wiped out by invisible unit NW of Moscow.
Lots of shore bombardments...
Zerk suicides on Arq 57-27
Ballistics -> Jurisprudence
Rome: Newton's -> Knight (can change to Cope's; discussion needed)
Milan: Royal Barracks -> Knight
Pyongyang: Royal Barracks -> Knight
Iznik: Knight -> Knight
Namp'o: Royal Barracks -> Musketeer
Florence: Royal Barracks -> Musketeer
Turin: Royal Barracks -> Musketeer

Turn 7 (1615 AD):

Moscow environs:
Nampotables-cat (eTreb now) kills enemy bombarde 58-27
Knight kills LB 59-27
eKnight kills LB 60-27

Oea (N of Utica):
Retreat vs. Arq
Kill Arq w/eKnight 61-27
vKnight kills Arquebusier 62-27

Science to 70%; Jurisprudence due in 7

I'll break here for discussion.
* Should we go after Cope's in Rome?
* Where should we settle our newest city? Is that site east of Padova (mentioned in the turnlog) okay?
* St. Petersburg still stands. Adding 12 knights to the current stack should be enough to reduce the city. Pillaging tiles to shrink the city sounds attractive, but it'll be a while before we can replace the improvements.
* In the West, I think the next step will be to move east against the Carthaginian city in the fog.
* Regardless of direction in the east, I think we need about half a dozen Musketeers there ASAP. The Knights are starting to get spread out.

 

[vmxa]

Is this a hand off or your soliciting input? It is too late here to load up and check the save tonight.

I would look at the growth of Rome and see, if it can use some or not. If it can or can't, can we put specialist to work, if we still have one or do we need a happy structure first. Then decide, what to build.

Of course, if replacements are needed, that is first consideration. If we can hold off on troops from Rome, then wonder or happy. Wonder, unless happy is needed.

"We're out of attackers here, so I'll have to bring in a fresh batch of knights. I knew it was going to be bloody, but this was a disaster"

You pretty much cannot count on Legions or Pret on attacks on towns at this stage. Earlier in the game they would not have Castles, maybe not even walls. Now the large towns will have one or both and even weak defenders will be a trial for attack 3 units, unless they hit damaged units.

As you saw in Utica even attack 4 units are going to struggle now against strong units behind strong defensive positions. Those we just have to eat, insert moan for armies here.

 

[ThERat]

Great progress against Carthage despite the losses. Once we have only Indochina left in the north, things should get easier.

I would swap to Cops in Rome.

As for military, you can upgrade all those arques to musketeers for free, please do so.

The proposed city site looks fine to me.

 

[Elephantium]

Soliciting input -- I'm planning to play again tomorrow morning. OTOH, I don't want to hold up the game too much, so I can hand it off if tomorrow morning is a better time for you to play than tomorrow night.

Rome will grow in 18 turns, but then it'll starve (1 excess fpt). It can steal a tile from Genoa, but that doesn't help us with any breakpoints, and we'd still face eventual starvation in Rome. Either way, it has plenty of happy faces.

Troops...the extra Knights from Rome would be nice to have, but I think we can manage without them for another 8 turns. We'll have enough Knights assembled for another crack at St. Petersburg in 3-4 turns. Once that's out of the way, Yakutsk (and hopefully the other Russian towns) should pose far less of a challenge.

In the West, we're steamrolling Carthage, and while Siam is moving lots of units around, they don't have much focus. I've had good luck picking off the occasional unit that wanders too close to one of our towns, and the military adviser says that we're Strong compared to Siam.

"You pretty much cannot count on Legions or Pret on attacks on towns at this stage."

Indeed, those last three attacks were ill-advised. I was hoping to take out at least ONE damaged Arquebusier for my trouble

 

[Northern Pike]

We were always likely to have one setback at an enemy city in this period, when our basic attack is just 4-4. The important thing is to keep the initiative, as we've done.

If we try for Copernicus in Rome and don't get it, we'll be able to bail out to a bank early in the build, or to Supreme Court late (when we'll have Jurisprudence). So the window of danger when we might lose a lot of shields is narrow, and I'd try it. The Poles are obviously a threat, but the AI seems to favour the top of this era's tech tree.

Your proposed city site looks good, if it seems safe. There's no ideal location but I'd settle directly south of the northernmost sugar.

Don't bother pillaging St. Petersburg; getting it down to size ten would take forever. That's a play for games in which taking one city is an acceptable war result, not AW.

Your other ideas sound fine.

I'm glad you've re-built some Roman Symbols, but we still have cities that should take care of that right now--Florence and Turin, for example.

 

[M60A3TTS]

Carthage should be down to 3 cities now. It looks from the screenies like we know about where they are.

 

[vmxa]

Play what suits you as I am retired and can play any time. I did not see the save name at the time I asked that. I am not so sure I would get fanatical about the culture sturtures, just squeeze them in as best it fits.

Often they can be first as they are cheap, but I would not let that get in the way of better choices, if you have them.

 

[Northern Pike]

Hmm, there are garrisons all over the Siamese lands now. So they're at least to Exploration on the bottom tech line; and when we start attacking their cities, we'll have to try to take out the supporting garrisons first, though that can be difficult before we have our first movement-three units (Hotchkisses, I believe).

 

[Civinator]

Civinator, here’s a problem. Apparently bombardes have a mandatory stealth attack—sending a bombarde against a stack of a fire lancer (equal to a C3C musketman) and two knights, I’m forced to attack one of the knights, although what I want is for the bombarde to clear the lancer off the top of the stack.

Thank you very much for reporting this error. The last civflavoured landgunpowder-units added to CCM were not set as a target to the stealth attack of the bombarde (fire lancer, German arquebusier, meso firelancer). I will fix this with the next biq and have to control if these later added units were forgotten as stealth attack targets for other arty units, too.

For Civinator: The Lansknecht looks the same as the Late Pike. It does not say anything, but I am guessing it is meant for only Germany?

Yes, it´s a flavoured unit only for Germany. I think, if Sandris makes such wonderful units for lots of civs, I try to include them, even if this is a lot of work (especially in setting targets for stealth attacks as you can see in the reply above).

Yogi Bear downs an eastern knight near Hippo

This Yogi Bear seems to be a real killer.

that can be difficult before we have our first movement-three units (Hotchkisses, I believe).

No, the Italians have Lancias. This is the last kind of tank or armored car for the Italians with stats equal to the tanks of other civs. Then Italian tanks compared to other civs are getting stats under average to lousy (as in reality). In the attached screenshot from a CCM testgame the Lancia is the old armoured car at the left side of the screene with the turret containing the two MGs:

Spoiler :

So it´s very good that you now reduce the Russian civ, that will have by far better tanks than your Roman/Italian civ. And it´s also very good that you could manage to severly hamper the Carthagiens. This civ has a tendency to steal away silently with the republic government and later return as a big economic and militaristic rival.

One more time great reports and a great game from all of you.

 

[vmxa]

The weaker tanks we will compensate for by being ahead in tech, if we know what is good for us. The later units get more hit points in most of these mods, so they are stronger and healthier. I can't recall, if that is the case in CCM or not. Else we will have to rely on numbers, but having the best defender at a given point in time will be important for invasion.

That and good numbers of defenders in the SoD is how we avoid getting bum rushed.