Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
AndrewN said:
Woops! Typo. (Forgot the zero!)
20 + (2 * current population)
Good catch.
- Sirian
RB1 - Cuban Isolationists
- Thread starter Sirian
- Start date
Woops! Typo. (Forgot the zero!)
20 + (2 * current population)
Good catch.
- Sirian
I think that's 20 + (2 * population). [OOPS! 20 minutes late. That's what I get for reading threads while I'm supposed to be working...and actually am some of the time. On the plus side, I'm now subscribed to the thread.]
Arathorn
Arathorn
AndrewN
Prince
Sirian said:Woops! Typo. (Forgot the zero!)
20 + (2 * current population)
Good catch.
- Sirian
NP. I kinda guessed that was the correct formua from looking at the screen shots, but it is nice to get it confirmed
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Just in case anyone didn't hear Sirian earlier...
This is a crazy variant game. Do NOT draw any meaningful conclusions about what a "normal" Civ4 game is supposed to look like from this!
We're off on a bizarre path here, and neither Sirian nor I know what's going to happen next. Grab a chair and enjoy reading through the journey, but don't think that this is what a typical game will play like!
This is a crazy variant game. Do NOT draw any meaningful conclusions about what a "normal" Civ4 game is supposed to look like from this!
We're off on a bizarre path here, and neither Sirian nor I know what's going to happen next. Grab a chair and enjoy reading through the journey, but don't think that this is what a typical game will play like!
Sirian, thanks for detailed explanation 
.
It looks like you played a very unusual opening even for a variant like this In civ3 i would have still played farmer's gambit with such variant rules BTW. As for expansion in civ4, of course i've heard a lot about building lots of settlers being a bad strategy (All this maintenance system is not very clear to me though), but still there is also growth in population that is important (and in civ3 too) and big cities are propably much better then small ones, that's why worker techs are needed: to increase food surplus. Propably on the higher difficulty levels no early religion is the only way to go.
.It looks like you played a very unusual opening even for a variant like this
In civ3 i would have still played farmer's gambit with such variant rules BTW. As for expansion in civ4, of course i've heard a lot about building lots of settlers being a bad strategy (All this maintenance system is not very clear to me though), but still there is also growth in population that is important (and in civ3 too) and big cities are propably much better then small ones, that's why worker techs are needed: to increase food surplus. Propably on the higher difficulty levels no early religion is the only way to go.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Obormot said:
Sorry, that's not true either.
"If there is only one right choice, you're not looking at a strategy game." (You are looking at a puzzle, to be solved once and then you're done with it!)
I've spent the last eighteen months stamping out "only way to go" instances. There are almost zero such things that are sweepingly true across the board, anywhere in Civ4, although as I said, there will be instances on a given map where a specific choice is best.
Deity is such a squeeze that in some cases, only the best choice(s) for a given situation stand any chance at all, but everywhere else, there's more than one way to get things done.
- Sirian
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
I was planning to get to this last night... then I ran into Onan in the MP lobby and we ended up playing a 4-hour MP game. Oops. 
I'll play sometime today.
I'll play sometime today.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Uh huh. And you were in the MP Lobby because...? You made a wrong turn on your way to "Single Player, Load" and "accidentally" entered your username AND your password while trying to click on the Go Back button? And there he was! Onan. Just happened to be sitting there in a game marked "Sulla and Onan Rendezvous" and when you clicked on "Exit to Main Menu" a bug caused you to join Onan's game instead?
Uh huh. A likely story.
Two weeks later... We finally hear from Sulla again!
A likely story indeed. So who won? And is this "accidental" meeting now recorded on Civ4Players ladder?
- Sirian
Uh huh. A likely story.
Sulla (hypothetically speaking) said:
Two weeks later... We finally hear from Sulla again!
A likely story indeed. So who won? And is this "accidental" meeting now recorded on Civ4Players ladder?
- Sirian
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
To entertain the crowd while Sulla is "gamma testing" the MP lobby...
Some shots from my solo game: Emperor, Tilted Axis, Standard size, all defaults, random civ...
Popped two huts, got maps both times. Looks like I drew an Archipelago landmass type. (Tilted Axis defaults to "random" landmasses. Can be anything from massive continents to tiny islands!)
Map info hut results can be quite useful on oceanic maps. You can see off your starting island.
That horse is in a craptastic location. Oh well. Not sure if I will settle there or not. May depend on if I have metals!
Incense, Spices... Foodstuffs... A little thin, but an interesting starting island. Strong capital and then four very thin locations with one or two food bonuses apiece. Looks like I drew one of the shorter straws! I'm on the edge of the ice at the East Pole!
My civ in 1AD, got eight cities and NO LUXURIES hooked up yet!
No religion, finally getting to Monarchy where I can get some happiness from Military Police units. Been whipping the tar and feathers out of the slaves, though! And I do have Copper, so I have "Held my Horses" in regard to the horses.
My home island:
Got beat to Magellan's Voyage world wonder by three turns.
(OK, technically it's not called that! That was the Civ1 term. You would "build" Magellan's Voyage. NOT ANY MORE! Now you actually SAIL YOUR SHIP AROUND THE WORLD, the real deal, and you get the +1 sea movement as a bonus if you are first to do it. ... Isn't that, like, WAY cool?
I love it.)
Hopefully Sulla will be done with his turn before I have to post another installment. (I'm experiencing some, ah, adversity. But hey! I'm not DEAD LAST in score as of 500AD! I'm a few points ahead of one of the AIs! and I may still be in the running.)
- Sirian
Some shots from my solo game: Emperor, Tilted Axis, Standard size, all defaults, random civ...
Popped two huts, got maps both times. Looks like I drew an Archipelago landmass type. (Tilted Axis defaults to "random" landmasses. Can be anything from massive continents to tiny islands!)
Map info hut results can be quite useful on oceanic maps. You can see off your starting island.
That horse is in a craptastic location. Oh well. Not sure if I will settle there or not. May depend on if I have metals!
Incense, Spices... Foodstuffs... A little thin, but an interesting starting island. Strong capital and then four very thin locations with one or two food bonuses apiece. Looks like I drew one of the shorter straws! I'm on the edge of the ice at the East Pole!
My civ in 1AD, got eight cities and NO LUXURIES hooked up yet!
No religion, finally getting to Monarchy where I can get some happiness from Military Police units. Been whipping the tar and feathers out of the slaves, though! And I do have Copper, so I have "Held my Horses" in regard to the horses.
My home island:
Got beat to Magellan's Voyage world wonder by three turns.
(OK, technically it's not called that! That was the Civ1 term. You would "build" Magellan's Voyage. NOT ANY MORE! Now you actually SAIL YOUR SHIP AROUND THE WORLD, the real deal, and you get the +1 sea movement as a bonus if you are first to do it. ... Isn't that, like, WAY cool?
I love it.)Hopefully Sulla will be done with his turn before I have to post another installment. (I'm experiencing some, ah, adversity. But hey! I'm not DEAD LAST in score as of 500AD! I'm a few points ahead of one of the AIs! and I may still be in the running.)
- Sirian
Sirian said:(OK, technically it's not called that! That was the Civ1 term. You would "build" Magellan's Voyage. NOT ANY MORE! Now you actually SAIL YOUR SHIP AROUND THE WORLD, the real deal, and you get the +1 sea movement as a bonus if you are first to do it. ... Isn't that, like, WAY cool?
- Sirian
Is that a joke? You mean...you really have to send a ship around the world?!? Sounds a bit unbelievable at first...cool thing though if they really did that!
Thanks for posting those other pics, nice to have something qualified to read about the game!
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Thrar said:
No joke. Although, it doesn't have to be a ship or even a single ship, but to have explored (or acquired map info) for a tile from every Longitude. As long as you "prove that the world is indeed round" and you are the first to do it, you are credited with Circumnavigating the Globe and get the same bonus as "building Magellan's Voyage" used to give in Civ1.
- Sirian
EDIT: Oh One More Thing(TM)...
Notice that the AI beat me to it. This is no cheat! They actually sailed their ship around the world, and did it faster than I did.
regoarrarr
King
ummm that rules (the voyage thing)
If I recall, that feature (round the world thing) was in Call to Power II, though I don't think it worked too well.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
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- Apr 3, 2004
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- 12,418
Sirian said:No religion, finally getting to Monarchy where I can get some happiness from Military Police units. Been whipping the tar and feathers out of the slaves, though! And I do have Copper, so I have "Held my Horses" in regard to the horses.
Does a resource have to be inside one of your city radii/Culture for you to use it?
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Krikkitone said:
Has to be inside the borders, yes.
There are no Civ3-style "colonies". You want a colony? Plant a city there.
(I may yet have to set up a "horse colony" to get those horses, in my SP game -- the ones in the icy location, it would be a very thin "fishing village" other than the horse plot!)
- Sirian
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
- Joined
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- Messages
- 12,418
I see
What happens if you put a city directly On the horse, will that spot get the pasture bonuses...actually expand that into a general question
What production do you get on a city square?
Can a city be starved out? (say by massive unhealthiness, no health bonuses are available, and the city is on the worst settlable terrain surrounded by Ice) [not so much saying if its practical but if there is a mechanism in the game to make it impossible]
and side question, did you adopt Hinduism by the last screenshot as it appears to have reached New York, so that option is available.
What happens if you put a city directly On the horse, will that spot get the pasture bonuses...actually expand that into a general question
What production do you get on a city square?
Can a city be starved out? (say by massive unhealthiness, no health bonuses are available, and the city is on the worst settlable terrain surrounded by Ice) [not so much saying if its practical but if there is a mechanism in the game to make it impossible]
and side question, did you adopt Hinduism by the last screenshot as it appears to have reached New York, so that option is available.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Krikkitone said:
City squares get a flat 2/1/1 bonus, however it is possible to increase this by building on plots with a "bonus". These include hills plots (but only Plains hills, in the default terrain, as both the terrain AND the hill have to have a shield for you to get 2spt in your city), and also resources. Founding a city ON a resource can lead your city center to have bonuses, but these will be small -- never as good as if you founded next to the resource and built the applicable terrain improvement.
Boston (in my solo game) is built on a Corn plot. It was literally the ONLY place where it could be put and make use of a Fish out in the ocean, so I had to do it. That city's center has 3/1/1 output due to +1 food from being parked on the Corn. Farming the corn would have given 4 food in the plot, though, and 5 later on, post-Biology. (6! If irrigation were brought over, as well, but my Copper Mine is blocking the irrigation line so that's never going to happen!)
Cities cannot starve in to extinction. They always have minimum two food in the center plot, and even if surrounded by 20 jungle plots (-5 Health) and unable to grow, they still won't DISAPPEAR from starvation. There is no direct advantage to starving an enemy city (doesn't hurt morale or weaken defenses) but it can hurt them from training more units or conducting research, etc.
- Sirian
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
So I finally get around to taking my turns in this game late tonight, but I have a very good reason for not playing earlier - I spent most of this evening at the Civ4 launch party being held by the Firaxians. That's got to be one of the best reasons for being late in Succession Game history.
Now that I have a chance to look at the save file... We've got a city with three religions, are 11 turns away from finishing Stonehenge, and are off to a bizarre start. We still have no worker techs whatsoever. Nada. But... we also don't have any workers, so it's not a huge loss! Now, Sirian's sketched out a great plan for a city on his dotmap, but we're *NOT* close to going into settler mode here. With a lot of land here, we've got to build a worker before a settler to speed up our growth curve (which the hydra has drastically slowed down - but of course it gives us other benefits). For now, England won't be too important to deal with, but down the road we could see problems. Hopefully one of our religions will spread to her...
Immediate goals:
- Finish Stonehenge (there's no way even *I* can screw this one up!)
- Research worker techs
- Try to build a worker
- Uh, that's all I'll likely be able to do in 20 turns. Don't mess up?
(0) 2800BC All I do is turn on the tile grid, because I like having it on. Not too much to manage at this point.
(1) 2760BC Warrior just scouting... I'm sending him to the far side of England, because we'll never be able to trade for maps and I want to scout Vicky's territory as much as possible before her borders expand.
(4) 2640BC Hunting research completes, obvious non-brainer is for Animal Husbandry next to hook up our cows.
Hmm, interesting... I see an English worker mining a gold tile that Vicky has. That's interesting because the AI used to build a settler before building its first worker - I guess I'm thinking about an out-of-date AI here. Nonetheless, that means that Vicky's first settler still won't pop out for a couple more turns (though her overall growth curve will be stronger in the long run).
(6) 2560BC Havana at size 4 now. The time for Stonehenge drops to 3 turns.
(9) 2440BC We complete Stonehenge!
First time I've ever seen the Stonehenge movie, ha! (We had placeholder wonder movies during testing. I've seen the Pyramids movie - the one that was done - about a million times.) As great as the free obelisks are, the real steal here for us is the free Great Prophet points for Havana. We're gonna need a lot of Shrines here to feed the hydra... Stonehenge tells us that we're in the southeast corner of the world, good to know. Havana starts on a (desperately needed!) worker.
Our warrior has made it all the way to the western edge of the continent, and Vicky is quite close to the coast. It's going to be a race to the middle of the map - but everything to the east should be ours. Obviously our early settlers will head west... Also, take note of that picture of English land, because that's the best picture we're going to get until Satellites come along.
Now that Stonehenge is complete, I convert us back to NO state religion. Why do this? Well, we don't need the happiness boost from a religion at the moment, we won't get the shield boost from Organized Religion when building a worker, and we'll get a LOT more culture from having no state religion in Havana right now. Look:
That's 5 culture per turn for EACH religion we have - we'd only get that from ONE religion if we were using one as a state religion. Now we'll eventually have to swap to one religion and stick with it, but for now let's feed the hydra some more! I would never do this with anything but a Spiritual civ, but we get to avoid anarchy so I'm going to use this to the max and do CRAZY religious swaps. We can change religions every 5 turns if we want to! Si senor, la hydra es muy bueno!
Now that I have a chance to look at the save file... We've got a city with three religions, are 11 turns away from finishing Stonehenge, and are off to a bizarre start. We still have no worker techs whatsoever. Nada. But... we also don't have any workers, so it's not a huge loss!
Now, Sirian's sketched out a great plan for a city on his dotmap, but we're *NOT* close to going into settler mode here. With a lot of land here, we've got to build a worker before a settler to speed up our growth curve (which the hydra has drastically slowed down - but of course it gives us other benefits). For now, England won't be too important to deal with, but down the road we could see problems. Hopefully one of our religions will spread to her...Immediate goals:
- Finish Stonehenge (there's no way even *I* can screw this one up!)
- Research worker techs
- Try to build a worker
- Uh, that's all I'll likely be able to do in 20 turns. Don't mess up?
(0) 2800BC All I do is turn on the tile grid, because I like having it on. Not too much to manage at this point.
(1) 2760BC Warrior just scouting... I'm sending him to the far side of England, because we'll never be able to trade for maps and I want to scout Vicky's territory as much as possible before her borders expand.
(4) 2640BC Hunting research completes, obvious non-brainer is for Animal Husbandry next to hook up our cows.
Hmm, interesting... I see an English worker mining a gold tile that Vicky has. That's interesting because the AI used to build a settler before building its first worker - I guess I'm thinking about an out-of-date AI here. Nonetheless, that means that Vicky's first settler still won't pop out for a couple more turns (though her overall growth curve will be stronger in the long run).
(6) 2560BC Havana at size 4 now. The time for Stonehenge drops to 3 turns.
(9) 2440BC We complete Stonehenge!
First time I've ever seen the Stonehenge movie, ha! (We had placeholder wonder movies during testing. I've seen the Pyramids movie - the one that was done - about a million times.) As great as the free obelisks are, the real steal here for us is the free Great Prophet points for Havana. We're gonna need a lot of Shrines here to feed the hydra... Stonehenge tells us that we're in the southeast corner of the world, good to know. Havana starts on a (desperately needed!) worker.
Our warrior has made it all the way to the western edge of the continent, and Vicky is quite close to the coast. It's going to be a race to the middle of the map - but everything to the east should be ours. Obviously our early settlers will head west... Also, take note of that picture of English land, because that's the best picture we're going to get until Satellites come along.
Now that Stonehenge is complete, I convert us back to NO state religion. Why do this? Well, we don't need the happiness boost from a religion at the moment, we won't get the shield boost from Organized Religion when building a worker, and we'll get a LOT more culture from having no state religion in Havana right now. Look:
That's 5 culture per turn for EACH religion we have - we'd only get that from ONE religion if we were using one as a state religion. Now we'll eventually have to swap to one religion and stick with it, but for now let's feed the hydra some more! I would never do this with anything but a Spiritual civ, but we get to avoid anarchy so I'm going to use this to the max and do CRAZY religious swaps. We can change religions every 5 turns if we want to!
Si senor, la hydra es muy bueno!
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
12) 2320BC *twiddling thumbs*
(16) 2160BC Animal Husbandry research comes in, timed nicely to fit with our worker due next turn. Now there are a number of good choices to go with here: The Wheel for roads, Agriculture for farms, Mining for mines, Bronze Working for forest chops. There is a very high priority on getting farms built on those grassland forest tiles near Havana - we need food badly at the capital - BUT that would require both Agriculture and Bronze Working, so we can't do it anytime soon. Since we also have a gold resource outside Havana, it's therefore an easy choice to go for Mining as our next tech to research. Mined hills will help a lot in terms of settler/worker production too.
(17) 2120BC Havana's borders expand AGAIN, completely closing off the eastern portion of the continent from Vicky!
Fear the hydra!
We also finish our worker this turn. He heads over to the cows and starts building a pasture, as you can see, I'm going to build a scout next to head into the unexplored lands to the east, then I'm planning on a true GAMBLE by going right onto a settler. He can meet up with our exploring warrior and head to Sirian's pink dot, if it's still available. This is a daring plan, but this whole game has been about a crazy risks, so I'm sending us in the direction of another one.
We will make the attempt to gain Pink Dot first, and worry about how we're going to defend it later. Right now a bear could probably take out our civ.
Get this - our borders have expanded to range *FOUR* before Vicky has reached size *THREE* (we hit 500 before she reached 100!) Fear the hydra's monstrous appetite! "La hydra? Ella es un diablo!"
(19) 2040BC Vicky adopts slavery, so she must have Bronze Working. Scout produced in Havana, city swapped to settler.
(20) 2000BC And my turn ends quietly. Worker finishes the pasture on the cows, dropping the settler's ETA from 11 turns to 8.
Sirian, I've tried to follow the overall theme of the game and I've committed us to pushing an aggressive settlement towards England. As yet, Victoria has not founded any more cities, but I expect one sooner rather than later. You may have to adjust the location of Pink Dot based upon that. I've done what I could to set you up for it though - I don't think that it would have been worthwhile to build a settler before a worker. You've got an interesting choice on what tech to research next too (uh, we need a lot of stuff - roads, farms, forest chops, and maybe some actual defense too!) I'm sure that you'll have fun with it (email with save file sent).
(16) 2160BC Animal Husbandry research comes in, timed nicely to fit with our worker due next turn. Now there are a number of good choices to go with here: The Wheel for roads, Agriculture for farms, Mining for mines, Bronze Working for forest chops. There is a very high priority on getting farms built on those grassland forest tiles near Havana - we need food badly at the capital - BUT that would require both Agriculture and Bronze Working, so we can't do it anytime soon. Since we also have a gold resource outside Havana, it's therefore an easy choice to go for Mining as our next tech to research. Mined hills will help a lot in terms of settler/worker production too.
(17) 2120BC Havana's borders expand AGAIN, completely closing off the eastern portion of the continent from Vicky!
Fear the hydra!
We also finish our worker this turn. He heads over to the cows and starts building a pasture, as you can see, I'm going to build a scout next to head into the unexplored lands to the east, then I'm planning on a true GAMBLE by going right onto a settler. He can meet up with our exploring warrior and head to Sirian's pink dot, if it's still available. This is a daring plan, but this whole game has been about a crazy risks, so I'm sending us in the direction of another one.
We will make the attempt to gain Pink Dot first, and worry about how we're going to defend it later. Right now a bear could probably take out our civ.
Get this - our borders have expanded to range *FOUR* before Vicky has reached size *THREE* (we hit 500 before she reached 100!) Fear the hydra's monstrous appetite! "La hydra? Ella es un diablo!"
(19) 2040BC Vicky adopts slavery, so she must have Bronze Working. Scout produced in Havana, city swapped to settler.
(20) 2000BC And my turn ends quietly. Worker finishes the pasture on the cows, dropping the settler's ETA from 11 turns to 8.
Sirian, I've tried to follow the overall theme of the game and I've committed us to pushing an aggressive settlement towards England. As yet, Victoria has not founded any more cities, but I expect one sooner rather than later. You may have to adjust the location of Pink Dot based upon that. I've done what I could to set you up for it though - I don't think that it would have been worthwhile to build a settler before a worker. You've got an interesting choice on what tech to research next too (uh, we need a lot of stuff - roads, farms, forest chops, and maybe some actual defense too!) I'm sure that you'll have fun with it (email with save file sent).
Sullla said:
Really? Before reading this, I fell into getting all 3 early religions in my 2nd game, as Spain, pretty much the same way by having a village teach me masonry.
It might not have been on the same level as you're playing though. It was a real challenge though not knowing what the terrain was. (I'm muddling my way through the black terrain + cheshire cat thing until I can identify what graphics upgrade my boat anchor PC can accept... 
Edit: wait, it wasn't Masonry... and don't see why that would have mattered to getting the religions but anyway your thread, your glory. /edit Edit2: yes it was -- this tech tree is so confusing
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