RBD Succession game 1 - Ghandi Tales

[Sirian]

Hey Skan. Hope you had a good holiday.

Charis: WLTKD is pretty much useless. I can't imagine going out of my way for it. It CLAIMS to lower corruption, but I've not seen any lowering worth mentioning. It supposedly helps resist cultural flipping, perhaps useful in a few rare situations, but better is a one-unit-per-population garrison, plus one unit. That's the only way to go for a big wonder-owning city you take over, even if you do plan to starve them down to size one and regrow from there (my usual plan). I used to use WLTKD for a MASSIVE growth in population once I hit democracy, but no more. I ignore it entirely now. We lost a whole tech's worth of potential research, celebrating We Love the Vain Day in India.

With Hocus brokering our tech breakthroughs, it will be interesting to see what happens. I've only ever opened a wide tech lead when I don't give the bloody AI ANY techs, for any reason, unless they are inevitably about to trade them back and forth anyway. Anything to slow them down, will help. The sooner they get Music Theory, for example, the sooner they start researching Physics. What really hurts, though, is with this patch, that new bug where the AI can trade amongst themselves on YOUR turn, if the autosave has been used ever. I haven't used it in this game (no reloads, says Charis), but I did notice the AI brokering on my turn once, back in BC times. Somebody who didn't have Monarchy got it DURING my turn while I was brokering the Republic to somebody else. *sigh* At least Hocus got to sell Banking to everyone. I just hope their gold flowing to us slows them down enough. 15 per turn is only 300 gold, and that ain't much at all for a cutting edge technology. Maybe I'm just used to playing Emperor. The longer the AI sits in the middle ages, though, the more I like it.

I WILL trade techs, but I keep an eye on the AI bankrolls. If none of them have cash on hand, they can forget seeing any of my tech, even obsolete ones. On the other hand, if they have oodles of cash lying around, they will trade with one another the moment one gets a new tech, so I will do all I can to acquire their cash: brokering world maps, tech, luxuries, diplomatic treaties, anything. Because the AI's will just trade with each other and still get the tech, and give you nothing. They won't make costly per-turn gold agreements with each other, though. And since Hocus got per-turn instead of cash-on-hand, that's one situation I absolutely would not have brokered. I suppose I could describe my trading philosophy as "make the trade if they are going to trade anyway, otherwise no dice". Once ANY of them have the tech, if ANY others (they aren't at war with) get enough gold, they WILL buy the new tech. They may also trade luxuries for it, amongst themselves. AIs trading back and forth is not good for the player, but you can learn to spot when they can and will do that, and when they can't or won't.

One of the best reasons to grow large and cover a lot of territory, is that he who covers more squares of land gets to charge more for Right of Passage. So I use RoP to bleed away AI cash-on-hand to cut down on their tech exchanges with one another, and pull farther out in front. This, presuming the game is going well. Some of my Emperor games, I've been playing tech catch up well into the industrial age. Thus, skipping the early wonders in favor of building tons of settlers and spreading out can actually be worth more net gold in your pocket than a wonder like Smith's trading company, if you continually USE that size to charge half the world for useless RoP agreements.

Cy's Gambit is not something I would have tried, but presuming continued peace with Persia for another few hundred years, it will certainly have paid off in multiple ways, even though it seems unlikely to me, with Persia's strong total culture, that it will actually lead to direct city acquisitions.


Also... as for mining cattle and wheat... only if you can't irrigate them. Here's a writeup I made for another succession game I got involved in:

Irrigation vs Mining. Sounds like a simple equation, but as with pop rushing via the whip, it can be more complex than what shows on the surface. A lot depends on the rest of the land you have.

In this case, there are about five or six grassland with shields, plus the cattle, some grassland without shield, a hills, and several mountains. Presuming cattle first, then several grassland with shields in a row, for the worker, it goes something like this.

If you mine the cattle, you get one extra shield per turn. Period.

If you irrigate, you get one extra food. This reduces the time necessary to grow another size from seven turns to five (without granary, from four to three with granary). If, upon growing, you bring a grassland square with shield, mine, and road online, you would get another 2 shields and 1 commerce from that. If you get that two turns sooner, you've picked up four shields and 2 commerce, by the time the city would grow with the cattle mined.

So... after seven turns, with the cattle mined you are at +7 shields. With it irrigated, you are at +4 shields, +2 commerce. Ah, but the irrigated cattle will grow AGAIN in three more turns, vs seven more for the mined cattle. If you then bring another mined, shield and road grassland online, you get another +2 shields and +1 commerce per turn from the newly worked square. You then have four turns of this before the mined cattle version would catch up and grow. That's +8 shields and +4 commerce.

After 14 turns, the mined cattle are at +14 shields. The irrigated cattle are at +12 shields, +6 commerce, and will grow again in one more turn, after which, the extra shields from the extra population unit will SURPASS the mined cattle and pick up net gains from there on out, until a ceiling is hit where you need an aqueduct, hospital, or more happy faces, to continue to grow, at which point you could always go back and mine the irrigated cattle, if desired. Being on a river further adds to the commerce gains. Could make two turns difference on a discovery, that early.

Now I know it's not as neat as that, as workers may not have fully improved squares ready to come on line, or the land may be less ideal than this plot of ground -- and settlers and granaries change the balance -- but the principle still holds. It's not just a matter of mining=production. Also, once out of despotism, it stops mattering at all, as every irrigation or every mine, on a plains or grassland, is equal to any other.

I would have irrigated the cattle. I would also not have whipped the temple in Babylon. We bought eight to twelve rounds of culture at 2 per turn, and maybe as many as fifteen rounds of 1000-year bonus coming sooner, at 2 per turn. So for about 50 culture points (which will be ONE turn, in the final equation, assuming all other things being equal, which they won't be), we whipped, which bought us either 26 or 24 shields but cost us a population unit, which is 2 shields and 2 commerce per turn, uh, forever. Or thereabouts. Definitely worth considering whipping a temple at 60 shields, but just 30, you can build that pretty quickly in the capital. A lost population unit in some corrupt frontier city, no big deal, as the shields from them would be wasted anyway. It's a much more problematic action closer to home. The farther from home, the more worthwhile the whip. At least in a building game. If your whole empire is poprushing horsies and rolling across the land, that's a whole different situation, in which you never expect to get out of despotism and don't care about anything in your cities. If you want to build, the whip should be weighed in its true cost, which means looking ahead at the full scope of what is lost vs what is gained.

Then again, if the land were a little poorer, or a little richer, it would make the same difference as being more, or less, efficient. And the game can be won without perfect land, so it can also be won without heroic efficiency -- which is a good thing for me, because I overlook stuff all the time. In my turn on this game, I lost a turn at Ur for not paying attention to what squares were in use. Made a mistake or two in exploring, not paying attention to what was shore or not. No cities rioted, but I get that on a regular basis, every few turns one slips my attention.

So in the end, theorizing has its own limits. You got us off to a grand start, lkendter. Our position looks good and I like our chances.

Hocus's mine-grasslands, irrigate-plains philosophy is generally sound, especially for despotism situations. I still prefer my "Little of everything" method, with no rule of thumb. I am quite fond of irrigating half the grasslands and half the plains and mining the other half, so that instead of all these squares with two food apiece, I have some with three food and some with one, most with two, with a mix of shields, to choose several possible configurations, some higher on food, some higher on shields, and flop the situation around depending on the priorities. At times I will even run negative food to rush a HIGH priority project along, and go high food once it's done to recover -- just one example.

Hocus's admonition to adapt to the situation at hand is the best advice. No rule of thumb can work best all the time, thus why the automation is so inefficient.


- Sirian

 

[Hocus]

Some thoughts, Sirian.

When I play Civ 3, I treat all the civilizations as one entity and play with the mindset that the AI is always against me. This may sound like a form of xenophobia, but it is justified. All the civs could be at peace with and trading merrily away with you, but when it gets down to it, they are ALL out to beat you. Not just one civilization, but ALL of them. If you don't trade with them while you can, they trade with each other when they can. And where does that leave you? By choosing not to trade with the AI, not only have you helped it, but you've hurt yourself; the effect is twofold. There is zero benefit for you in that situation, with the only disadvantage being a slightly less tech advantage, and that's if the other civs even choose to go down that tier of tech. They're going to trade tech with each other when they can anyway - there's no doubt about it, so why not benefit from the situation with that in mind? If you don't, they surely will. And this only advantages them and disadvantages us. For instance, in our current game, I traded Banking to all of the civs. If I was to go by your reasoning, eventually the AI would discover Banking and trade it amongst themselves. So... in exchange for them getting *one* tech slower, we've missed out on a lot of gold and possible techs. How does this help us exactly? If we are going for a passive victory, as long as we have better defence than the other civilizations, both scientifically and numerically, we're fine. And at the moment, that is exactly what it starting to happen. Most of our cities are becoming well defended right now, especially with the recent completion of Leonardo's Workshop, with more on the way. Our biggest (and closest) threat, the Persians, have just had their Unique Unit effectively negated by all of our Musketmen. Also, should they ever attack, our War Elephants will prove to be a huge boon - Immortals are not known for a high defensive rating. And when we get the right tech, they can be made into Cavalry. Gravy. Besides, their Immortals are all off fighting on other shores. And when they finally do come back, (IF they do come back) who is to say that we won't have Riflemen, or possibly even Infantry by then? In the near future, its entirely possible that Persia will be off waging its wars in Communism, and at the same time putting the other civs it wages war with into it as well. Meanwhile, we're sitting back in Democracy, boosting our defence and infrastructure, slowly but surely leeching their coffers when we throw them a bone every 20 turns, growing stronger by the decade. How can we NOT gain a large tech lead? And if they're in Communism at war, any techs we trade with them (besides military ones) are effectively useless to them. And better relations only aid us to that end even further. As for Music Theory, I traded that with one civ as I felt that one tech THAT LEAD TO NOWHERE was not worth possible riots in several cities and thus reduced production. Personally, I'm not in the business of hurting myself to hurt the AI; I'm into self-preservation. And trading the Persians Music Theory for Furs was an act of self-preservation, both militarily and economically.

In my mind, we are headed for a Space Victory, although this is certainly open to change. I sell off tech breakthroughs with a passive victory in mind. It's what I do if I'm going for one, since in my experience, selling off tech tends to help relations, and good relations is what you want for a Space Victory. Trying to achieve one with half the world at War with you isn't very nice. Also, should War ever be declared on us, we'll have a bunch of eager allies more than happy to help us out. Personally, I'd rather trade a tech or two for that kind of protection.

However, if you're worried that we won't have much of a tech advantage, consider this: if the AI is shelling out a lot of gold per turn (as it is right now to us, let alone what it could be paying off to other civs) it severely inhibits its ability to research. It has to pay for its units and buildings, too. So, at the cost of *one* tech per 20 turns, not only do we benefit ourselves, but we stall the AI's research rate, and may even further our own if they are researching down a different tier. I don't see the harm in that.

"15 per turn is only 300 gold, and that ain't much at all for a cutting edge technology."

Consider this, I think the current price for upgrading a Pikeman to a Musketman is 30 gold a pop. So 300 gold gets us 10 upgrades, which is nothing to sneeze at. But it's not just 15 gold per turn, since almost *every* civ gave gold per turn. That means a lot of upgrades, both now and in the future. If not that, then a pool from which to buy tech that we don't bother researching.

"AIs trading back and forth is not good for the player, but you can learn to spot when they can and will do that, and when they can't or won't. "

I'd like to know how to do this, because I sure as hell can't. Rather than take the risk and possibly miss out on some profits/risk helping the AI any more than I have to, I'm usually inclined to sell a tech that doesn't lead to anything important for the AI as soon as possible.

I realise you have a way you like to play, and you've found that it is extremely successful for you. That's great, more power to you. However, I also have a way that I like to play, just as Charis, Jaffa, Cy and Skan (when he finally does play ) do as well. These varying playstyles are what makes Succession games fun, at least for me. There's no problem in offering someone some friendly advice if they've gone about something the wrong way, but not everything in Civ 3 is as open and shut as that. I feel that this issue is one of these. Be more than welcome to be stingy with techs to the AI on your turn, but I know what I'll be doing in mine. Unless, of course, I read something that convinces me otherwise, but again, I don't think that this issue is as black and white as that.

Happy hunting,

-Hocus

 

[Sirian]

Hocus: If the AI's dont have cash, they don't trade with one another, for the most part. If one of the AI civs falls behind, falls out of the brokering loop, it may have trouble catching up, or never catch up ever, if it doesn't have something to offer in trade. As much as the AI's SEEM to play as a team sometimes, the fact is, they won't give away things of value to another AI civ for nothing at all. Each trading partner has to offer something at market value. So the others trade with one another, but not the slow civ, and it just falls further behind. This can happen to the players, and often does, if they are late to arrive at the grand trading orgy. But of course, the last civ to make a discovery gets it the cheapest, allowing even the most backward civs to maintain SOME semblance of parity.

Let's set aside the question of broker or not-broker for a moment, and look at Music Theory. Since the AI's will never skip optional techs, but research everything before moving on to the next era, I see your evaluation of certain optional techs as "useless" to be in error. Regardless of what the AI's can or cannot do with the tech, they will research it or trade for it. If you hand it to them, you ARE therefore speeding their total tech climb, just as much as with any other tech you'd give them. In fact, that AI would quite likely just broker the tech around to the rest of them anyway, unless they can't pay. So in that regard, whether you sold them Banking or Music Theory would hardly matter. The time to sell Music Theory would be right away, BEFORE we finish the wonder, when the tech is still highly valued. It deflates in value once the wonder is built, and we will either build it first, or not.

We may be on the way to a space race victory, but we may also not go that far, or not need to. Getting the tech lead and getting out in front by five, six, eight techs, starting NOW, would give us the commanding military and production edge, grant us every wonder we care to bother building from there on, and even allow us to eliminate or pen in any rivals we care to confront. That the Persians are at war with most of the world keeps them out of the trading loop and cuts way down on how much the AI would be trading back and forth. The rest of the civs are smaller/slower.

The thing is, rails are the end all production boost. Getting railways going boosts food, which boosts everything else by making for larger cities in many cases, also boosts shields, which makes for faster building of improvements that boost commerce. The growth explosion is geometric. The longer it takes the AI's to reach steam, the better. Getting there even just two or three techs ahead can bust the game open. I agree with you that, on paper, it LOOKS better to be the broker and sell to everyone, but that keeps them up with you, because they inevitably pay far FAR less in cash and gold-per-turn than it takes them to research, and on top of that, each one you broker to lowers the costs for the next in line, while if they are all stuck at the same level on the same research line, they are ALL stuck spending the max amount on research, then when one hits, it lowers the costs for the rest and they all hit the breakthrough the next turn, then line up to spend the max amount on the next breakthrough. Only if they research different things (rare) can they speed their progress.

If you are going for an early-date win, and care only about space race or UN vote, brokering all the way through gets everyone to modern age faster. I've never done that. I'm not comfortable with the AI having tanks and nukes. I'd rather win before they get to those. I guess I'm just aggressive. I can't much resist military aggression once I've got decisive production and technology advantages, which come with getting rails and factories, the more quickly relative to the AI's, the better. I guess it depends on the game, too.

From my perspective, your brokering plan looks solid. It will work just fine. But I believe you are looking at the immediate impact without following through on the long term impact, in evaluating the net gains of brokering, in the same way that whipping can buy a quick rush of shields but ultimately cost much more than meets the eye.

Every turn lost to the player on reaching steam is a turn lost of railroads. In that sense, brokering speeds us to steam by giving us more gold we can spend on science. We get a definite gain. On the other hand, the AI's are a tech closer to steam, as well, and at what cost? Are they really slowed in their research? Maybe a little. A whole tech's worth of being slowed? Not hardly. Even if we gain two turns (generous estimate) and they lose one, that's a net three turns, while they gain five to eight turns by being a whole tech closer. It's the net difference that really counts. How many turns behind us will they be, if we are stingy with tech, vs how many behind if we broker. You're looking at our immediate gains and seeing that WE are sped up, which is definitely true, but I don't think you are perceiving how much they are also sped up, and that the net difference is less. We get to rails a little sooner, but they get there a lot sooner than they would have, and that too then offers them, not us, more net gains. They get to hospitals sooner, as well, and start growing their cities beyond size 12 sooner, offering them yet more net gains.

True, if they are warring and swap to Communism, they're done for, as the AI starts whipping and drafting, and eroding its power base by eroding its population, which costs them permanently in the areas of shields and commerce. They'll never recover. But what if they DON'T swap to Communism? I've seen that happen. If they stick to Democracy, they can make up ground. They only need 80% of what we need to make a breakthrough, or build something, or grow a city.

It's a matter of playing philosophy, yes, and you can do whatever you please on your turn, but if you opt to broker away our research, you take a lot of options off the table for me or anyone else, just as much as if you (or any of us) commit to a war. The next player up has to deal with the war. Every move we make has impact on what the next guy, and the one after him, can do. All the players have to agree on some basics, as it just won't work to flip back and forth from despotic military rush to democratic production buildup, turn in and turn out. On some points, there has to be cooperation. Have I had more than my due influence on the total direction of the game? I don't know. Maybe. I've picked on Charis about a few points, probably him more than anyone simply because he goes in front of me, and it's his situations and actions I directly inherit -- picked on Cy for automating workers, nitted you about stuff, posted screenies with city location suggestions. I've certainly written the most, but that is just a function of my identity, not a matter of trying to be controlling. I've also not said anything about any number of minutiae I might have commented on, as I'm enjoying the diversity of the game. There have only been a couple issues over which I'm banging my head on the desk, and they are all surprises I've inherited from Charis where I look and wonder what he was thinking -- inevitably some finer point over which he was unaware, like the uselessness of WLTKD. I've tried to have fun even with that, though. Charis, I know, can take a little heat.

When it comes to the tech, my concept of conserving a lead would require unanimous cooperation, while your desire to broker some or all of the tech we get can be unilaterally enacted on your turn. Thus, you're in the driver seat with that, and I don't have much choice, do I? If you plan to broker away every tech we get on your turn, at least now I know, and won't bother to try to conserve a lead when it's my turn or write any more about that option. I'll just deal with the situations I inherit the best I can and pass the game on. Nobody has burned the down the kingdom while I wasn't looking as of yet, so I have no reason to worry in the larger sense. Well, except on Cy's turn.


- Sirian

 

[Charis]

Thought I would try asking a question *before* it actually came up

Republic vs. Democracy. I've not yet used Democracy in Civ 3, although I'm highly aware of the distinctions in Civ 2. What's the difference nowadays? Folks seem pretty clear that burning to democracy is the way to go. I'ld just like to know the 'why' behind that. Will democracy help/hurt us in a war? Or do you hope to avert that for a long time?

An alternate option, which somehow doesn't seem to hold as much promise, would be to rush for Military Tradition and get Cavalry. With that plan, we get there first, build up a small army and quickly deploy them while all Persia's forces are mopping up America, taking the entire French subcontinent and estabilshing a base at Tarsus, a chokepoint, with about 20 musketmen defending it. (Not saying this is best or even feasible, but it is an option that comes to mind)

The problem with NOT having a goal of Tarsus is that our 'front line' is **so** wide, they could strike at several points, while we have Bombay strongly defended (which we must). The other bad side to this is that since these cities are foreign and far from their capitol, they will raze. So we won't get to 'revolt' them back, or take them back if we let one slip. We let a city slip, and it's a black mark on the earth. Indus and Ganges are one thing, but I would hate to see a razing on Bangalore, Calcutta or even Chittagong.

There's also the saltpeter factor. If we rule the French continent, we *own* the supply.

BTW interesting discussion between the merchants and the whip here I read each and think, hmmm... that makes sense. I support both the individual king's right to decide and the strong value in pointing out decisions that would unilaterally not make another option viable. One factor I don't think Sirian's paying enough attention to is short term tactics. Having a three tech lead on gunpowder is *HUGE*, while having a three tech lead on Education or Music Theory or Banking is nothing but a long term benefit (although that itself is significant). Gaining an advantage by USING the tech you have a small lead on (Musketmen or Cavalry) can have the biggest 'differential' advantage of all in the long term tech race. I'm rather glad to see the great increase in Musketmen and defenses since my last reign. This 'leverage' comes from recognizing that tech lead = your rate - rate_of_top_opponent. In a setting where countries are equals, it's likely not going to work, but in one where there is distance between 1-and-2 and the rest of the world, slapping down the other guy a few notches by using a short-term tech benefit may be beneficial.

Charis

PS I put you after me actually *hoping* for such detailed comments, whether they're whips or WLTK comments :crazyeyes

 

[Sirian]

Democracy has two main benefits: worker efficiency increased by 50%, and the lowest available corruption level in the game. It's the lower corruption that provides the boost to commerce and productivity that makes it the desirable choice. For a Religious civ, suffering only one turn of anarchy, it's pretty much a nobrainer for improved buildup. The only real downer is quicker weariness, but you still get weariness under Republic, too.

In "running straight to steam", the question of cavalry is one more of production than anything else. One can get to Military Tradition without having yet researched Theology, although I've never seen it without at least having Education. Cavalry aren't much more expensive than knights (elephants). Still, at 80 per, and staring down stacks of fifteen and twenty immortals (which on my last turn, all started still on our continent, and at two per galley, they only moved about ten over to the colonial land) it was not a situation where I believed our production levels would or could sustain an offensive war any time soon. We might be able to beat back the frontier to Tarsus, but they DO have ships and could (and I believe would) flank around us, pulling Tarsus up short of the "perfect" bottleneck I think you are envisioning.

The AI doesn't tend to multitask its attacks. It sends all its available units in stacks after pretty much one city at a time. Our Aggressive Colonies might be targetted, but the Persians are more exposed than we are, in fact, with their captured cities. It would be interesting, to say the least.

If I hadn't seen the stacks and stacks of immortals, I might be tempted to nibble off the front of the Persian force, but it just seems to me that the odds improve for us as time passes. But on my last turn, if they landed a stack of immortals next to Lahore, for example, we'd lose the city. That simple. Just two galleys, four units, would certainly beat what we had there. I tend to be cautious about war when my lands are this scattered and exposed. Rails are never more vital than when you have to ferry a bundle of reinforcements to some unexpected distant corner of the empire.

Do you really believe eight or ten cavalry can handle the entire Persian offensive force, with 100% certainty? I've seen too many units lost to streaks of "luck" in the random number generator. As long as they are busy with wars, they are mostly building more and more units, too. You say immediate gains, but what about production and growth curve sacrificed to building more units? I say the Persians are occupied for the moment, let them be so.

War weariness could force us to shorten the war, but the Persians may not go along with that. If and when we engage them, we ought to be prepared for the contingency of a long war, since we absolutely don't yet have the force to press them back very far. Right now, relations with them are about as good as they get. Don't overlook the benefits to us of letting the strong AI's beat on each other over meaningless colonies. Now if they start to take over the English homeland, then we may have to act.

Wasn't the main point of Cy's Gambit to wage passive aggression through cultural pressure and takeover? If we were just going to try to conquer the French lands militarily, we shouldn't have built those forward colonies. Now that we have, I'm interested in seeing how Cy's Gambit plays out. If we go another four hundred years and none of those revolt over to us, well... we'll have our answer.

In the mean time, I don't think I followed your point at all about "Having a three tech lead on gunpowder is *HUGE*". How is it huge? What can you DO with gunpowder? Muskets are the most overpriced unit in the game. They suck on attack, they are decent at defense, but not as good as two pikes, which you can get for same cost. The main reason to bother with them is on expectation of upgrading one musket to one rifleman, instead of being stuck with two pikes you can't afford to upgrade. Three tech lead on gunpowder is of WHAT value? Defensive, surely, and getting the tech lead on Invention and building the workshop is grandly useful. But getting the tech lead to Education will then soon WIDEN your tech lead, as you build universities, or get the head start on Bach's Cathedral or Copernicus. Getting to banking sooner likewise can widen your tech lead, but selling banking to all your rivals gets their banks going sooner, and allows them to narrow the tech gap on you. (If you had the lead).

A three tech lead getting to chivalry pretty much never happens. If you pull that off, you've won already. So where is the military edge to be found? In getting to Military Tradition, or to the Industrial Age, first. Which is better? Depends. I could have gone for chemistry instead of Music Theory, but do you realize I had to put Bombay on building a new Palace for nine of my ten turns, to let it store up shields while I researched first Gunpowder, then Music Theory? I barely had enough time to pull it all off during my turn. How much benefit will we get from building the Cathedral, and also denying it to the enemy?

Everything is a tradeoff. You can do this, that or the other, and they all have different short term or long term benefits. We could have plunked down six or eight cities anywhere and whipped swordsmen out continuously, and fought in the ancient age, and perhaps even won. We didn't. We rushed to Chivalry, in hopes of securing a golden age and building enough ivory tuskers to deter the Persians from, uh, wiping us off the face of the earth. That part seems to have worked out. Going for democracy is just one possibility. Yes, it's longer term, but it also keeps our options open. If we commit to Military Tradition at all costs, we have decided to prosecute an immediate war the moment we get there. Can five minds as diverse as us wage an effective long term war across a series of turns, when we are setting out with thin forces that may or may not even be able to take out the enemy force if both were massed in one location? I don't know about that. What if one of us overlooks something and gets flanked, and we lose major cities? I'd feel a lot more comfortable in THIS game with rails under my feet, the ability to mass our (currently nonexistant) artillery to any given location to soften up the enemy or chase off their attackers from any city they advance upon, and having as much tech lead as possible to hold the production edge. That's one thing about archipelago maps: they spread you all over the place and make early wars more chancy.

Well, those are my thoughts.


- Sirian

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

I'm not going to be able to play for another 20-odd hours, so Skan could go ahead and take his turn now

 

[Hocus]

Just wanted to clarify something, Sirian.

As I said in my previous post, and as I'll say in this one to remove any confusion, I do not intend to broker away all of our tech. I have tried that in testing games of my own and did not like the results. Even though their research rate is indeed slower, if you broker away all of your tech, you do it all for them!

So, let me further explain this philosophy of mine:

Instead of brokering away all of your tech, thus making any chance of a tech lead impossible, you only broker away some of it, at certain times. I *never* broker away techs that lead to a military upgrade for the AI, (yes, I do realise that indirectly this occurs, since it's one less tech they have to research, but if we trade tech with the AI, they're in exactly the same boat as us) and I only tend to trade one every 20 turns or so.

Here are the pros of doing this:

1. Bonus tech(s) every 20 turns
2. Updated maps (although this is fairly moot but mid-late through the game, as most land tends to be eaten up by then)
3. Gold per turn, which speeds your research for that period, and slows the AI down for that period. It also means they can do less upgrading/paid labour.
4. Lump sum; cash in the bank. Always good to have for the same reason we don't want the AI having it, upgrading/forced labour.
5. Good relations, this means less fighting on your territory and better deals for you.
6. Luxuries, like with our current game, where I traded Music Theory for Furs, since I didn't think the lost production from riots and having one less citizen working in some cities OR 10% luxuries was a good idea.

Now the cons:

1. It reduces the lead you have in tech.
2. Indirectly, you're helping the AI get to all the "good" techs, like Steam Power etc.
3. If you're going for a domination/conquest orientated victory, you want to be fighting the most obsolete troops you possibly can.

So to me, the pros outweigh the cons. I've yet to see an argument that convinces me that moderate (one every 20 turns) trading of tech does more bad than good.

Also, don't think for a minute that I'm just going to go off and do my own thing every turn, completely ignoring what the group wants and has previously set in place. This issue had only been discussed between you and I at the time, and since it was a draw, I vetoed it. Jokes aside, if the rest of the group feels that me trading one tech every 20 turns to the AI is not a good thing, just speak up and I won't, with no hard feelings. This variety of game may be made fun by the actions of individuals, but the group has to live by (and die by) these actions. They should have a say.

-Hocus

 

[Zed-F]

In case anyone hasn't frequented the RBD board recently...

I'm trying to organize a 2nd RBD succession game. Please let me know if you are interested in joining. Currently we have myself, Sirian, and Carbon Copy signed up; I'd like to get at least 1 more before starting.

I haven't decided on a civilization yet but I'm leaning toward Japanese (for no particular reason) but I'm willing to listen to suggestions...

 

[belzedar]

I thought all these names looked familar I played d2 a fair bit until a bit after lod. Lurked on the lounge and read nearly every tactic/idea on every site.

Ive just been following your game. Looks like alot of fun playing this way, and a great way to learn more about the game a different way. Im learning alot reading through everyones thoughts, ideas and decisions at different times. Especially without defining how the group plans to win at the start!
I think the tech trading issue is a decision based on how you see your civ in the future and how you plan on winning.
space/culture/diplo its easier to justify trading than domination/conquest.

Is there any way to tell what an AI civ is researching? and do they offer less for a tech if they are only a few beakers away from learning it? If possible this would be the best time to trade as they would start their next tech from scratch and kinda paid twice for the one they just got..

-zedar

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

In a bizarre turn of events, ancient prophecies unexpectedly turn out to be completely accurate, and the little-known Cult of the Monkey is vested with executive power over the Indian Republic. Panic ensues amongst the Cult members, all four of them, who would really rather have been left alone quietly tending to the sacred monkeys in the temple gardens.

And so it came to pass that a wandering minstrel who happened to be sleeping at the temple was unceremoniously inducted into the Monkey Cult, bundled up in a cheap monkey suit, and thrust into the political spotlight.

"Huh? What? Oh .. ummm .. right! We should go to war with Pakistan! At once!"

"What do you mean, you never heard of Pakistan?"

"Well, ummm. Maybe it was a dream, then. Ummm. Okay! War with Persia it is!"

"No? But why can't we go to war with Persia?"

"Oh, right. We're at war with France! Very well! Send our troops to the front line!"

"Ohhh .. ummm. We're at war but we're not actually doing any fighting? Ummmm..."

"Oh, forget it. Just summon the dancing girls, and let me know when I need to sign anything."

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

The chronicles of the years of the Monkey King, as foretold by ancient prophecy.

Renegotiated RoP agreements with everybody we had them with. English pay 34 gold + 4 gold/turn. Germans pay 3 gold/turn. Americans pay 50 gold. Zulus will pay only 1 gold. Bah. I think it's worth it to keep them polite, though.

Did you know you could upgrade troops from the Military Advisor screen? I didn't

1110AD Zulus land a settler+impi team on the island where our spearman is.

1150AD We finish Bach's Cathedral Karachi and Lahore mysteriously go into unrest, despite having more happy than unhappy citizens in the city zoom view

1170AD The Zulu settler and escort have disappeared off the island. Apparently they changed their minds about settling there.

1190AD We become a democracy Persians finish building Copernicus. We buy Astronomy from the Persians for 95 gold + 4 gold/turn. Should guarantee they're not going to attack us for at least the next 20 turns.

1200AD Game crashes. If we weren't reloaded from an autosave before, we certainly are now.

Lots of our cities underwent cultural expansion

What wonder is Madras saving for? Magellan's? Newton's?

I finished upgrading all our spear and pikemen to musketmen.

Most of our heartland cities got switched to infrastructure work when they finished the current round of military. Frontline cities are still on musketmen or catapults.

The French are still hanging on in Avignon, and the Persians don't seem in any hurry to finish them off. Should we make peace with them? Or assemble an expedition to wipe them out ourselves?

 

[Cyrene]

Got it. Should be able to finish tonight.

Skan, you are on deck .

--Cy

 

[Cyrene]

Sleepy times in the big purple.

Basically, erm, nothing happened .

In 1230 Xerxes came calling, asking for a ROP and alliance vs the English, which he has been in a phony war with since way back when he hit the French. I certainly don’t want war with the English, but the ROP looked appealing. I can auto-send troops on redeployment missions without having to micromanage them turn by turn to ensure they don’t wander into Persian territory and the next thing I know I’m getting an angry message from a pissed off Persia. I also, AS YET, have not been back-stabbed by the AI taking advantage of a ROP, so I hope it might encourage the Persians to work out their aggression issues on someone else’s doorstep . The whole thing was silly, really. I mean, what did Xerxes expect us to do against England? Line up all our war elephants on the coast and moon them? Load up two units on our one galley and assault an entire nation in a pathetic amphibious assault (that would be sunk on the way, anyway)? If it was a human player, I would assume the idea was to draw the English to him by setting us up for the English to attack us, then, once half our cities were taken, he could use the ROP to rush in his army, and retake the cities for himself (without having to risk a counter-attack), but I don’t think the AI is that cynical 8-0. Oh well, I passed on the war bit but took the ROP, so we are still buddies with Persia (gracious) and have a ROP with them.

In 1265 Persia finally finished off France, and pulled an army I didn’t know was there out of Lyons and sent them somewhere down into the Persian interior. About this time the Persian shipping traffic really picked up too, so it looks like Xerxes is about to set off on another round of colonial wars (or is actually going to fight the English). This is a good thing, but Persia’s days as a threat are numbered, anyways . I still haven’t seen a Persian unit more modern than a knight, and mostly just see Immortals. His tech lead is slipping and his treasury is empty. He’s still dangerous now, but his sun is setting in the face of modernization. Come the modern age, I can take everything west of Tarsus in 1-2 turns, and Tarsus, which was a great strategic point FOR him in the Ancient Age, is gonna turn into one hell of a bottleneck in the modern edge against him.

Ok, on to odds, ends, and notes.

We, erm, have a new city (cough, cough). Sorry. It was basically a throw-away-waste-of-resources city I slipped in to (1) take some pressure off of Ganges, which is now getting more cultural pressure than it is giving, (2) help protect those furs, which is the only valuable active thing Ganges is doing, anyways , and (3) grab a little more tundra in case of oil. Speaking of Ganges, I pulled all but one unit out of when the Persians were really pushing it hard culturally, it may be stabilized now though, evaluate it and do as anyone sees fit. Sirian: I love the old culture gambit, but you have to pour it on and keep the pressure up to start flipping cities, which just isn’t gonna happen in a team game with different styles, and that is ok with me. Ganges was a gamble all along, which is why I asked about it instead of committing, but Dacca and Indus were dual-purpose and so I felt almost ok about just plopping those down . Dacca was just a good site. It could put pressure on Paris, strip away some of it’s best production land, including a bonus food square, and claim some mountains in case of coal. Indus is a guard post. We get to see every unit Xerxes moves into our area. It is also an AI magnet—I’ll bet a dollar that if Persia attacks, they idiotically hit Indus and Indus alone the first turn. That gives us some reaction time. Taken as a sum, they also moved the front line off our front doorstep and away from our core cities. So, smugly enough, I’ll feel the expansion was ok even if no foreign cities ever flip.

Oh, speaking of Dacca, that baby is turning out more production than I anticipated. It’ll need some worker attention before it has the next pop.

On tech trading: well, on my solo games (emperor diff) I just about never have a tech lead to trade away. When I get one, I’ll trade it unless it is a key one, then I’ll hold it just a few turns and trade. Why? I’m always in turtle mode until the Modern Age, and if I don’t trade it I’ll just get one of those nice “Give me the tech or die.” messages from some big bully, and I’ll have to give it up for free. There are only two essential techs in the game, anyways (IMHO, of course), steam power and the laser. Steam power means your smaller, but completely up to date army can really give a huge AI army of all kinds of odds and ends fits (I love it when the same AI army has tactical nukes and bowmen). The Laser means you are going to win . The rest of my short list of crucials are nationalism, sanitation, replaceable parts, motor transport, and computers. The rest of them are just stuff in between in my world . (Can you tell I get a tad aggressive in the modern age?).

Oh well, Might India rumbles along like herd of hungry racing war elephants heading for the barn.

There are rumors of a new face being elected the next president .

--Cy

ps—Skan, check your science slider, a tech is about to pop and I have it pushed down to get the gold for the extra science this turn.

Pps—what wonder are we shooting for with the city saving shields? I think we could get newtons, if we want it.

 

[Skandranon]

Got it.

(pause)

No, really!

-Skan

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

Originally posted by Cyrene
Oh well, Might India rumbles along like herd of hungry racing war elephants heading for the barn.

Well, okay. Just so long as I don't have to clean up after them

 

[Charis]

Skan... are you done with the turn or need more time?
We're targetting 24hrs to see the orig post, and 24 more after "got it". If you've not played yet, bump it, or if you need a little more time, say so.

Thanks
Charis

 

[Skandranon]

I said I got it! There was a little delay as I rooted out and mercilessly squished the source of a repeated crash, but I finished.

Anyway.

Due to the introduction of a most interesting new innovation, the "butterfly ballot", sixty-seven percent of votes cast in the upcoming Indian general election end up going for the candidate of the Hippopotamus Party of India, a fellow named Igflutz. The Supreme Court confirms the vote.

Igflutz, who founded the party while he was slightly inebriated, had no idea what to do, but he had PR advisers to help with that. They advised him to pick a more public-friendly name. After scouring libraries across the country for a suitable name, Igflutz took to a name in a fantasy book (while only slightly drunk) and he became President Skandranon.

After doing virtually nothing while in office, and getting involved in a scandal involving files, fire, and the Monkey Cult, he does not even run for the next election and the Hippopotamus Party returns to fringe status.

Thankfully, historians note, nothing of significance occurred during his term.

1280 - The scientists of India discover Physics. Bombay finishes the University of Bombay, changes to building a Bank. Many Persian ships sail through our waters, heading for the English mainland. Much movement of workers.

1285 - Shaka decides he no longer wants the Right of Passage agreement. His price to take it on once more is Physics, which the President rejects as unduly steep. Bismarck also calls to cancel the Right of Passage, but agrees to a new one, with no significant terms attached. Much movement of workers (hereafter abbreviated MMOW).

1290 - The Persians take Coventry. Zulu ships poke around the edges of our territory. MMOW.

1295 - Indus completes a Musketman, which is fortified along with the other eight. It begins another one. MMOW.

1300 - That large Persian army which moved into the interior some turns ago moves back in India's general direction. MMOW.

1305 - That large Persian army goes back the other way. Persia wins a sea battle against the English near their waters. MMOW.

1310 - English retake Coventry. India discovers the Theory of Gravity. Madras is switched to Newton's University. Shaka comes calling for a map switch. His price for a RoP is checked, and having now dropped to 4 gold per turn, it is agreed to (Zulu ships lurking around the sides of our water and all). Physics is swung to the Persians for Economics, Navigation, and 23 gold per turn. They can't really trade it to anybody anyway, and it IS a rather sweet deal, though I am not sure of how wise that was in hindsight. Perhaps I should have waited? As usual, MMOW.

1315 - The English land a single knight north of Rheims. The Persians move their army toward India again. MMOW.

1320 - Shaka comes calling and demands Chemistry because he's bigger and stronger. He is told to buzz off, and he does, respecting our courage, no matter how substance induced it may be. The English knight attacks Rheims, and withdraws. It moves inside our borders, but that doesn't matter much. MMOW.

1325 - Elizabeth cancels the Spice deal without so much as a diplomatic notice. I leave the renegotiation (or not) of that deal up to my successor.

Same thing with the sleepy times as Cy; nothing big happened, made sure we were nice and comfy and on warm-fuzzy-smiley terms with everyone else so we could build in peace. Delhi eventually began churning out war elephants for lack of anything else to do, and as a just-in-case against Persia. Jungles were attacked in large numbers, large preserves of forest were built in the north. Pretty standard stuff. Mined every uncovered grassland, microed some city management for improved efficiency (one city was doing 2 shields a turn, 83 to Aqueduct, and after juggling it went down to 14 to the Aqueduct). Watch that one though, if it doesn't change worker settings it'll build an Aqueduct and have no food to go to size 7. Don't recall the name offhand. Anyway, just another turn in the roll of years...

-Skan

 

[Charis]

1325 AD (0) - A solid term under President Skandranon ends in peace and relative
safety, under what would call the "scholastic era" (so many Universities started).
Alas, the students turn (once again) to the "pungent weed," and these liberals
end up causing a small revolution. CharisGandhi V comes to power, and surveys the
situation. He sees no one else is building Newton's, and it should be a nice addition
to Leo's and Bach's, as we catch up in wonders. The advisors tell us that our
military outnumbers the English, Aztecs, and Americans, is on par with Germany and
Zulus. Research-wise, we have a huge lead over the lesser countries, and are on par
with Persia, and slightly ahead of the Zulus. The pungent leaders things that in
one matter his predecessor too loved the weed! Taking Nav and Econ, which gives us
*nothing* we will ever, ever use or build, for Physics, is surely borne of the weed.
(The former are 'optionals'.) CG5 notes that with Metallurgy done in 2 turns, we need
only Magnetism to hit the industrial age, but are also one (optional) tech from
Calvary. He calls together his advisors...

We can get to Calvary dozens of turns before our foes, and with Leo's, upgrade the
elephants to Cav for peanuts! We can sweep Persia clear off the French continent
in at most a half-dozen turns, and seal up the border tigher as a drum at Tarsus!!
This is firmly within our power to do, assures the Military advisor! We can cripple
our only real threat, knock them down to number two slot in the world, and with our
economic and science base, dominate the entire future! If instead we WAIT until they
are done with their wars, they will have their entire army ready to deal with our
late attack. The king was starting to be swayed by this, but then a quiet man, a
student of the Siri-Yan dynasty, who says this is folly! We are not in danger from
Persia, our defense is strong and sure, and instead we should focus on building ourselves
while they squander the middle ages in combat! The Industrial age brings Steam Power,
Sanitation, Industrialization. If you want to talk dominant combat, talk Tank.
The military leader barks "This SQUANDERS our mighty war elephant development! If
we want to use, them, we must do it NOW, upgraded, while they have no force or tech
to oppose us. If we wait, we'll be on the receiving end of Calvary, and our cities
will be razed! The follower of Yan notes... we have 48 (!) Musketmen and 11 jumbos.
Add to that 11 swordsmen, worthwhile only for peacekeeping at home.

What will we do chief, what are our goals for your reign?!

1. Completion of a scholarly expansion, which will help us gain (and KEEP!) the
techs of the future. These must NOT be traded away again.
2. Do NOT ignore barracks, Musket and horses. It is hoped that the military advice
here to Cav-blitz the Persians off our continent will be implemented by another, soon.
3. Lead us into the Industrial era.
4. Revitalize the Tundra with a forestation program.
5. Cave in to the demands of no one. Let he who declares war on India soon learn
the utter hopeless folly of his insolence!
6. Maintain "Polite" status with all, subject to point 4. Let trade be strong.

So he surveys the situation. Notes Bombay is on "Pre-Wonder" with Palace. Puts to
Smiths, noting our maitenance costs are huge, and it's a 3 culture/turn item. Still,
if a better wonder becomes available before that's done, feel free to switch!
(Looking at wonders ahead, there's really nothing til Darwin, so I think if
some other country gets Smith's first, we'll lose the shields one way or another.)
The city management and production choices seem in GREAT shape, Kudos to President
Skan. Almost nothing needs to be switched. On the trade, Spice was available from
the England, but at exorbitant amounts. CharisGandhi will NOT trade knowledge for spice.

1330 AD (1) - Sign up Dacca for a Barracks, with University planned next.
We lose our Wine supply from Persia, and we note Germany announces incense.
At a cost of 20 gold/turn, we look and see that due to splendid forethought
in Cathedrals, we do not need their wines anymore. Weed, not wine, cry the people!!
To the Germans, we can trade our excess Ivory and get the incense for about 100 gold,
so this we do, to make the people even more happy.

1335 AD (2) - Calcutta finishes harbor, starts University. Karachi finished Library,
starts Harbor. Bengal finishes Cathedral, starts library.

WHOA!! Something never seen in all the annals of the history of India
has anything like this ever been seen!! "Oh great CharisGandhi, the people of Ganges
have risn up in revolt and pledged allegiance to the Persians! However, the Persian
government refuses to acknowledge their claim! Thus we have regained control of Ganges!"
Incredible! We had a city flip, but they 'refused it', letting us keep a solid city
of 8 with rising culture! Metallurgy is complete. The huge omen that has happened this
turn shows that this is NOT the time to turn and wildly attack the Persians, so
finally CG5 decides... Magnetism, not Military Tradition, for the people of India.
The great people of the Ganges were saved, not by Military might, but by learning
and culture. So let it be written, so let it be done! (Aside from Charis: Phew!
I hate the arbitrary nature of flipping. That city has nuthin but cultcha in it,
with *NO* unhappy people. How it could pledge allegiance to Persia, and we have NO
chance to do ANYTHING about it kinda sucks) The one thing we probably CAN do to
help avoid flipping (but alas not completely avoid) is to garrison better. We did
only have one mil.unit stationed there. Four more are sent (older ones ;P)
Spending is pumped to reach Magnetism in 5 turns.

1340 AD (3) - Cathedral finished in the hot spot Ganges. Barracks slipped into the queue,
with University lined up next. Workers note that with Tundra, Forest (1-2-2) beats
mined Tundra (1-1-2) while with Plains, the mined plains equal it (1-2-2) but give
the flexibility of going irrigation for more food, plus 10 shields in clearing it.

1345 AD (4) - Zulu armada of 4 ships float PAST Delhi and up north (phew). Bangalore
trains a Jumbo, and starts a Canon. Upgrades a few Cats to Canons, for just 20 gold.
A seer sees the future, and sees these Canons one day protecting Tarsus of India.

Interesting thought. Newton's is due to finish next turn in Madras, and Smith's in
Bombay in 27. If we SWAP what they work on, and max shield production, that would be
14 turns to Newton in Bombay and 16 to Smiths in Madras. No one else has Theory of
Gravity. If no one does within 14-16 turns, ALL Smith shields in 3 foes will be lost!
The question in this gambit is, how close are the Persians, Germans and Americans to Smith?
Actually, perhaps a more important issue. Newtons gives +50% beakers IN THE CITY
it's built. Bombay has more, but Madras has no Univerisity yet. CG5 does not wish to
rock the boat too much, for his forefathers were run out of office, accused of
weed abuse in the past because of this. (Besides, we could produce the culture rich
Universal Suffrage if we build Newton at Madras, and get beat to Smiths at Bombay. I
doubt we could hold out making Palace at Bombay until Theory of Evolution, but it's
possible if shifted OFF max shields)

1350 AD (5) - Between turns, our ROP with Germany ends, and Persia ends theirs too. Huh?
Now they're annoyed. NOT good. I butter them up to cautious and plan to give them
World Map as a freewill gift each term to keep them calm, at no cost to us.

Newton's University built in Madras. Bombay will end up with Smith or Suffrage.
Chance of losing Smith is too great to build another placeholder at this time.
Delhi, will essentially all improvements already, takes the opportunity to build a
Settler which we can use later to found or to add to city (after Sanitation).
Jaipur completes Aqueduct, hits 7, and starts Library.

1355 AD (6) - Work done in Indus, slip in a Barracks. Dacca finishes Barracks, starts Univ.
Persia is back annoyed. (Is it the new presence of extra troops in Ganges? Or have
they finished their current war? I've not seen a time when they're NOT at war, so
if they come to peace with England, know we're next, and soon.) He has magnetism
too, but is lacking Theory of Grav and xxx (which we have). Maybe it's jealousy. Those
two things keep him in the Dark Ages, while we flourish in the Industrial era.

1360 AD (7) - India enters the Industrial era! Magnetism is discovered. Although Persia
is annoyed, I stick with Steam Power. (The urge to insert Mil.Tradition is very
strong! It would only take 5 turns to get!) Punjab, finish Marketplace start Univ.
Ganges finish Barracks start Univ.

Dehli Settler is Fortified in Delhi.

The dueling advisors come to see CharisGandhi, their level of irritation much
greater. "RIFLEMEN!" screams the military advisor. "If we wait, our jumbos will
bite down on Riflemen. If we act RIGHT NOW, we can get Cavalry before they
reach Nationalism. After that our window of opportunity is GONE. Do you realize that
Persia is Scientific?? Once they hit the new era, they'll get a MAJOR new tech,
for free?! And they're not far from that era!" The industry advisor pointed out
that we're the leader in the new era, why look back? Now is a time for infrastructure
with the opportunity to build factories and railroads and hospitals. Do we REALLY
want to blow that great opportunity churning out more jumbos and musketmen??"

CharisGandhi went to smoke some weed.

Then he realized why Persia (and England) were annoyed. Those trade agreements. The
ones we let lapse due to high cost? Could it be that if a trade agreement is possible
but not taken, they'll get very annoyed? Do they not say on the screen "can our
countries not trade together to enrich both?" This would be easy, although costly
to test. We could accept Persia's offer of Wines for 500 gold. (Downside, if they
go to war next turn that's 500 lost gold. Upside is huge if this is the only thing
keeping them from anger and us from a pair of decades more peace.) What if he used
this cash to buy the techs he needs?

If nothing else, his ancestors were diplomats. CG the Fifth went once more to the
table. He offered 479 cash to trade for Persian wines (yuck...) Polite! A huge
happy smile spreads across Xerxes face. "I had thought you were disrespecting our
fine wines. I am now much relieved!"

1365 AD (8) - A collective sigh falls over the land, and peace is expected for many
years to come. That sigh turns into a cheer when "Persia and the Aztecs sign an
alliance against England... Aztecs declare war against England!... Persians set
sail for England" Just before that an annoyed Elizabeth wants to terminate a ROP
where she paid 4 gold, and turns polite at a straight ROP agreement. Oh gosh,
could THAT have been why Persia was annoyed? (Lack of ROP?) If anyone knows in
more detail how ROP and/or trade agreement affect 'attitude', let me know )

1370 AD (9) - Pasargardae of Persia completes Smith's Trading Company.

1375 AD (10) - A quiet year where the most action was seen by tree planters.

Thus ends the quiet reign of CharisGandhi V.

-- Charis

 

[Sirian]

When corruption abounds, Yans make their rounds. Cities ruled by Law and Order do not attempt to secede from our Union. As the Ganges investigation deepened, the taint of scandal fell upon the Charises once more. Seer-Yan swept into office in a landslide vote on the promise to "Clean up this awful mess". The usual Yan platform was bandied about, and while the country is generally indifferent, at times of scandal, they always turn to the one party with a proven track record of enacting effective law enforcement. At least until the crisis passes.

Ganges? Well, duh, of course the citizens there are upset, as the governors (with the blessing of the lacksidaisical Senate majority) build libraries and cathedrals filled to the ceiling with propaganda from the liberal wing of the government, while crime runs rampant in the street and Persian "tourists" lure our people to unrest with talk of their harsh ways of doing things.

The solution is mind-bogglingly simple: BUILD COURTHOUSES. The Yans have only been saying this for, oh, what? About two thousand years now??? Heh. Clean up the streets and the people will be more content and more productive. Rooting corrupt elements out of the government in particular is helpful, and those who would foment revolt are left with no dark dingy corners in which to rut and strut unchecked. As Yans have been saying without pause, "We don't need new laws. What we need is to enforce the laws already on the books!" In easy times, people don't seem to care, or at least those in this city don't care about those in THAT city, with each Senator vying only for local interests, and pork barrel money. "Build a new barracks here in OUR city!" "Plant us some trees!" "Close that old mine and irrigate these farmlands!" "Open up a new mine, we have too many farmlands!" "We need lumberjacking jobs, lets cut down every tree within a thousand miles!" On and on it goes, until a Yan rises to power and sweeps out all the scandals.

Courthouses! By order of the Senate, so it is written, so it shall finally come to pass: a courthouse in EVERY city in the land!

500 gold for a luxury??? The Vain, oh the Vain. If not ostentatious expenditures on celebrations, the line of Charis ends up paying full retail price to our rivals the Persians for... a few shipments of wine??? Well the deal is done, but the Yans intend to offer legislation strictly regulating cash for luxuries. Polls show that 71% of voters would prefer that more investment be made into research and invention, and less into fattening the wallets of Persian merchants while Charis-Senators secretly toke on their stash of ILLEGAL pungent weed. Bloody liberals! For goodness sakes, if you have to give SOMEONE cash, pick anybody BUT the Persians. (This, strictly off the record, as we don't wish to anger our "friends" in Persia).

The Yan platform, in a nutshell: Courthouses, Factories, Reforms.

Yada yada yada, a century later, every city in the land now has a courthouse and is building in preparation for factories, as soon as we have worked out the kinks in the prototype models. The hungry folks in front line cities have finally been allowed to build granaries. Fishing towns are working on harbors.

Our rail network through the difficult terrain near Bombay is more than half-complete. Some new workers have been hired across the land, and railroad engineering schools have been opened in Jaipur, Chittagong, and Indus: these sites are expected to graduate skilled laborers on a clockwork basis for the next century at least. (Surplus workers are NOT a problem, they can be rejoined to cities once rails cover every square mile of our land, unless they are needed for Pollution duty). The Senate has passed legislation supporting these schools, and experts agree that this program has been designed with the usual Yan efficiency, meaning it will do what it promises if left alone. Whether the Senate will one day repeal these laws in favor of something else is out of Yan control.

Fishing Village has been founded. Apparently, when some school kid did a research project on the great Sirian at his local library in Delhi, he came across a copy of the Settlement Plan and noticed that one of the cities Sirian suggested for what, at the time, was the distant future, had never, in fact, been constructed. This made the papers, and the Senate got into another uproar. Well what better use for the settler group outfitted by CharisGhandi V? SURELY CharisGhandi did not mean for those settlers to sit around being paid on the government dole for doing NOTHING AT ALL for the next few decades? Right? ... Right? So apparently his plan to send these people into the desert to the shores of Indian Bay north of Bengal, had perished with him in exile as he hid from the Ganges Special Prosecutor, getting lost in the shuffle as the scandal broke out. To avoid getting lost in the shuffle again, the settlers in the new city have coerced the Senate to provide guarantees on a long term plan of action, where they shall one day have their own temple, harbor, granary and aqueduct.

Once all the courthouses were completed, and crime and the threat of revolt settled down, the Yans no longer had an audience for their endless nitpicking and harping, and were once again tossed out of the Senate leadership in favor of more liberal politicians.


Note to Hocus, there's no tech brokering to be done at the moment. I already sold a tech each to Germany and England, and they are far too broke to pay anywhere near market price for more, for the foreseeable future. Right now, only Persia and Zululand rival India. Germany has conquered Aztecs and may one day rise to prominence, but for the moment they are not much of a threat. Please don't broker tech to Zulu or Persia. We have rails now, and will have factories soon, and every turn delayed on THEM getting hold of these is a turn ahead we get in what is now surely the Cold War of production. For make no mistake, at least SOME war is coming, for the AI's have attacked one another too harshly and grown too large, and we are going to have to mix it up at least a bit to slow them down -- all the better to do so as our factories and rails churn out all kinds of military hardware while their forces remain scattered. Artillery is the key, for no city, no matter how well defended, can long stand up to Hellacious bombardment (witness Iraq, 4th largest army in the world, pummelled in a rout after being thoroughly softened up from the air first, in 1991.)

A stack of twenty artillery stationed outside a city, with infantry and cavalry/elephants ready to march on 1hp units, can take down any city or discourage any stack of Persian invaders, sending them packing for home. Rails can move artillery and accompanying defender units to anywhere we need, so it won't matter if the AI's have rifles or not. Hopefully we can move on Persia before they too get to infantry, though.

And with rumors of war on the horizon, the Universal Suffrage becomes a priority. The ability to extend a war without pumping luxuries to the max, or to weather a long war when the other parties aren't interested in negotiations, is important. Every turn that weariness is delayed is IMPORTANT, because weariness sticks around once it piles up, and immediately returns at full force if you return to war again. Thus, Bombay is on Palace awaiting Suffrage.

Jaipur, Indus, and Chittagong are all dedicated to pumping a out a worker each every other turn for... indefinitely. You don't have to do a thing, I even have the workers all queued up. Our three tiny tundra towns are all building harbors. Fishing Village is set to build its necessities. That's eight cities.

Every other city in our empire, every last one (including Delhi) besides those eight I listed, are building placeholders awaiting Industrialization, to build factories. Whether or not its wise to continue this course of action, is up to you, Hocus. Good luck.


- Sirian

 

[Charis]

A good reign, as usual, Sirian. On some points, I couldn't tell what was story-fashion "and the people revolted over the crazy actions of the last king" and what was legit criticism. (And hey, mix in some positive propaganda, eh?! ) Let me give the rationale on a few points and ask a question:

1. What ON EARTH does having a courthouse have to do with protection from flipping???? That occurs (presumably, or so I thought) when a no culture town in a low culture country is surrounded by high culture elements in a decent culture country. IF so, temples, library and cathedral are precisely the right thing to do.

2. 500 Gold for a luxury?? Absolutely not! We didn't need the luxury. That was 500 gold for 20 turns of peace. In 20 turns we have near full rails and lots of factories and an improved lead. Let to myself I would have gone Mil Tradition, cranked/upgraded fifteen cav and emptied the contitent of Persians with a supremely defensible position at the end, but I sensed that a) the incoming leader would NOT have liked that course of action, and b) the team as a whole wanted to see what effect our 'tiny' cities could do to affect Persia culture. (I think now the answer is: they are 'affected' rather than 'effecitve' for culture, BUT wow, they've turned into decently productive, large, and cultural cities in their own right ;P)

I've been chompin at the bit to have Mil Tradition and duke it out with Xerxes, and subdued that for the sake of the perceived plan, so mocking a choice to preserve peace is... ouch!! I saw the Immortals move, I saw how hot Xerxes got, I'm convinced we would now be at war, the DEFENDERS not the attackers, right now, if I didn't make that deal (or the ROP). At some point later I'll replay and see if I was paranoid again

3. Was that a crit of barracks in the middle? Barracks are ESSENTIAL for border towns, especially our 3 puppies surrounded by Persians. If THEY start an attack, have barracks reheal between turns is worth at least an effective doubling of the defensive capability. And if YOU start an attack, having those barracks town for quick reheals when the Cavalry disengages at 1 hp, is also super. Those 'regular' musketmen on the eastern front will get eaten alive even by Immortals - the lack of barracks has gone on long enough.

4. Are your comments on artillery from experience or theory? My *very* limited experience suggests that they miss alot, and if the number of defenders is similar to number of artillery, or even a quarter the size, the damage done is useless, FULLY rehealed next round by the barracks. If you want to pit 20 canon vs 5 riflemen, I'ld rather pit 20 Cav against 5 musketmen.

I'ld like to learn if/how artillery is effective, so please do elucidate!

Other than that... good job on the fishing village, and full agreement with no brokering of techs that Persia does not have.

Charis