RBE DSG2 - It's a Small World After All

I am unable to get past the same point as T-Hawk.

So our save game looks to be corrupt. Something that is strange is that when I tried to open the last two save archives from Sirian, the built in file explorer compression in WinXP Professional would show no files in the archive. I typically double click the zip file in explorer which opens it just like a folder. Then I just cut and paste the file out of the archive "directory" into my civ3 save directory. In all the SG I have played I have never had a zip archive "corrupt" in WinXP but able to open in WinRAR.

Sirian, what compression tool do you use to create zip files?

Update: I went back to the 950AD save and I am able to use the above procedure to open the archive and extract the file all in WinXP.
 
There's nothing wrong with the compression. The crash occurs off the original save as well. There isn't exactly any "corruption" of the save file either. There's apparently a situation in the game itself that the game just cannot handle.

I spent (wasted?) about two hours messing around with pinpointing a recoverable point in the game. I had saves available from most turns. The 1140 and 1150 AD saves were hopeless. The 1130 save would play through with nothing but ending turn, only to have Egypt tromping all over us between 1160AD and 1170. I thought I had a good save file there, but no, replaying it, and duplicating my previous actions within maybe 5% error margin, led once again to being unable to proceed past 1160AD.

What I eventually managed to do was go back all the way to 1110AD, and deliberately change the course of history. I bought the last few shields on the harbor on Hope isle, and upgraded our front line units back home to musket. I also ran some minute map dealings. This led to different seeds, and within two turns, America made peace with China, and Egypt threatened us, extorting 87g. Neither of those happened before.

I played on, and got the game past that 1160AD mark. I played all the way to 1200AD just to be sure. I can't promise it won't screw up again, but we seem to be past the previous blockage.

I still have no idea what it was getting stuck on.

From 1160 to 1200AD, I spent our surplus cash rushing markets and some aqueducts. Heavy initial expenditure, but if we live long enough, it will pay off. Iros also made peace with China, and most of their mainland is still there, so perhaps that crisis, too, will be avoided. For now. We need to emphasize pop growth in the fishing towns, generally. Egypt remains a major threat, as that phantom attack on us showed to me while trying to sort this thing out. We need to get some more troops soon. I've contemplated buying MPP with her (cost us about 6gpt -- DO NOT pay cash if you do it) but that could get our rep screwed up if she gets into it with Abe or Hi. Whatever happens, don't renew the RoP with China unless part of a trade deal. We may need a free hand with them on short notice.

I'm sorry for all the trouble, but don't see anything I did here to cause it. Just one of those things. Not the first succession game where Civ III has wigged out like this. We were unable to rescue RBD12.

RBE2 Aztecs - 1200AD

I'd say return to ten turns apiece from here. The dates will become uneven, but it's that or have someone playing only five turns to straighten it back out.


- Sirian
 
FWIW, I tried declaring war on everybody in the spirit of scientific inquiry in 1160 AD, which didn't help. I also let the game run for about four hours at the end of that turn, so it wasn't just working through a long AI decision.

I can play right now so I've got it, and Architect can still slot back in after me.
 
Inherited turn:

Why in the world is Madrid building a university? We still have many cities without muskets. Well, I'll let it finish, or turn into a Factory. Bapedi building a longbow? Rifles are on the scene (Embargo is a diplomatic option with Egypt, so they have Nationalism), and we do still have the two elite swords which are almost the same thing as a longbow, so Bapedi swaps to musket.

I pay 1 gold for Egypt's territory map, to see if they have any rails yet, and they do.

The price would be 150 gpt to get the three remaining middle ages techs, probably about another 70/turn for Steam Power, and 36/turn for Iron and possibly that much again for coal. Also, our Wines will not come renegotiable for another 11 turns minimum.

Our cash is going to do us no further good by sitting around and rushing buildings. We can't afford to wait any longer for China to get a tech to double-deal with. So I decide to do what I proposed earlier, mortgaging everything we've got towards rails. Plus we CAN trade away our only Silks; all the size-12 cities can absorb the happiness hit.

To America, the only possible Silks customer, we trade Silks + 20/turn plus 405g for Metallurgy.

Egypt has an extra silks they could trade us but it isn't worth 25/turn.

To Iroquois, who offer the best price, we trade 117/turn for Theory of Gravity, Magnetism, and a worker. That puts us in the Industrial Age.

Oh, America and Iroquois do have Nationalism; the embargo diplo option wasn't there because we never established the embassies.

I buy Iron BEFORE buying Steam Power, since the price for it does go up when you have rails. I pay Iroquois 40/turn for it (yeah, ouch.) I would've bought it from Egypt to give her a reason to keep us around, but she wanted 45/turn.

Iroquois also have the best price for Steam Power at 103/turn (yeah, ouch again.)

Joy of joys, holy of holies, WE HAVE COAL, at Intombe!! There's also another, one square OUT of Mpondo's cultural control.

The other AI civs have Medicine and Nationalism. Egypt and Iroquois have Industrialization, while AMERICA LACKS IT. I'd LOVE to buy and broker, but our remaining 40/turn plus every penny of our 1000 principal isn't nearly enough.

I think the deals were worthwhile. The techs weren't going to get any cheaper other than a two-for-one with China, but who knows how long that would take, and the odds are at least fifty-fifty they'd just get an optional tech (the AIs love Democracy.) Arguably we could've waited for Democracy to get more rail miles out of each iron buy, but it isn't that huge a difference, and it's still due in 15 anyway and China might get it sooner.

I swap Tenochtitlan, Tlaxcala, and Mpondo to workers. I also buy an Egyptian worker, stop all our lumberjacking workers, and send our boat over to retrieve the workers from Mpondo Isle.

(I) I order up another worker at Tlax (city has 10 shields), figuring it can live at size 11

for a few turns.

1210 AD: I've been workin' on the railroad.

1220 AD: Ditto, being careful not to waste a single worker turn. Bapedi finishes musket, orders up a worker.

1230 AD: I cancel the ROP with China and do not renew.

1240: Madrid finishes university, starts worker.

1260 AD: BINGO! China got Democracy. (And Navigation, somehow.) I trade them the last three medieval techs for both those techs and 3 gpt. I revolt - after moving and commanding the workers - and start the lone scientist working on Nationalism.

It's also now barely possible that China will get Medicine before we need it, still giving us two-for-one brokering opportunities.

Whoops - forgot we'd get hit by the bug where roundoff error makes slave workers not gain speed under Democracy before Replaceable Parts. Keep in mind now that slave workers are only one-third the speed of natives.

1275: The great railroad baron Thunderhawk retires.

I got close to half of our squares railroaded. I don't think we'll even need to buy another round of iron to get them all; just spread the workers out one per square on the last turn of iron (which will be 1325 AD, the last turn of the next leader.)

Wines for Egyptian Furs and Dyes and Iroquois Incense all expire next turn and will need renewing. Lincoln lacks Electricity but we don't have the money to buy it to broker.

The currently building Universities and Colosseums are Factory prebuilds, of course.

We almost have enough to buy Industrialization, but it looks like we're too late for any chance at Theory of Evolution. If Suffrage cascades to it we have no chance. But the cities building it are Thebes (which has a hospital!), Salamanca, and New York, all pretty powerful cities, so it is possible it'll finish before the cascade can happen. If so, rush a factory and coal plant somewhere (Bapedi?) and we just might get ToE.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe2-aztecs-1275ad.zip
 
1275AD(0) - We can afford industrialization to build factories and coal plants so I'll work on getting this during my turn. Of course, our 2 100gpt deals expire at the end of my turn so I might not get much of a chance. It looks like the Iroquois might attack us. That would actually be nice.

1280AD(1) - Begin prebuilds in San Antonio. I trade wines to Egypt Wines and 10g for Dyes, Furs, and Silks. I trade Wines, 214g, and 53gpt for Industrialization. I could have waited, but if the iroqouis attack Our Only Hope then they will lose out on 250gpt and we won't take a rep hit. The egyptians really hate me.

rbe2egyptwar2.jpg


They declare war and our civ is going to go into serious disorder. We lose our entire slave labor force. Barcelona falls and is razed to the ground. Tlaxcala falls and is razed.

1285AD(2) - I use scroll ahead to prevent all but Madrid from rioting. We have no embassies STILL to the iroqouis or Americans. I can bring the chinese into the war with Steam Power. However, with no money I doubt we'll be able to bring anyone else in. I go ahead and see and establish embassies. The cost of an alliance with either of them is ~550g.

Plus, our civ is going into major disorder. We are already war weary. The situation is very grim indeed. I have to run 40% luxuries just to keep most everyone working and we are at -238gpt. I trade 153g to Iroqouis for Incense. We now can run 20% luxuries and only 3 or 4 cites will starve put it costs us 215gpt.

Here is the situation on our border with egypt.
rbe2grim.jpg


I think the best thing to do is bring the chinese in and then upgrade our jags to swordsman so maybe we can knock out some calvary. The other civs won't help in time. I bring china into the war for steam power.

I rush a bunch of knights and I declare war on the Iroqouis to reclaim 250gpt. If I don't then we start losing buildings next turn. We are now at +73 per turn and running 30% luxuries.

The Iroqouis take new hope. The egyptians take mpondo and raze it to the ground.

1290AD(3) We lose some workers and 4 musketmen but Teot holds. Our counter offensive with swordsman begins. I start building longbowmen everywhere I can. We defeat 5 calvary, lose 2 swordsman. We trade industrilization for Ivory and Military Tradition from the chinese. We are 66% war weary and I have to drop into anarchy.

1295AD(4) Our defense of Teot produces a leader but we are still under attack. Can we survive? We do. I switch to monarchy. I form a swordsman army as I have 2 swordsman hurt and one good one so they might as well all be put to use. Our swordsman army defeats a iroqouis calvary that landed on our western shore. Our last two knights fall attack egyptian calvary. We have no offensive units left this turn. Teot will fall next turn if the egyptians press on. I bring the americans into the war against the iroqouis for 88g and 15 gpt. I buy gems from the americans for 15gpt.

Our Only Hope falls to the iroqouis and they raze it to the ground. The egyptians sacrifice wounded calvary to knock out workers that I had left in their range on accident.

1300AD(5) We kill 2 egyptian calvary. It looks like we might have survived the initial onslaught. However, no one will make peace. Abe will trade us Iron for 43gpt, wines and all our money. What a nice guy. I trade him wines for 11gpt, 62gold. Rushing horseman and then switching to longbowmen saves 80gold and gets us 2 longbowmen next turn.

1305AD(6) Our longbowen defeats an Egyptian knight. Our longbowman and knight are defeated attacking a musket man. No one will make peace. We rush two more longbowmen. America and Egypt sign and alliance vs. China.

1310AD(7) Our longbowmen defeats an Egyptian calvary. We lose a longbowman to a musketman. No peace this turn. 3 more longbowmen next turn.

1315AD(8) Our longbowmen defeat an Egyptian calvary. We have rifleman marching into our terrirory and really no way to defeat them.

1320AD(9) The rifleman will Attack Tlat next turn. Our longbowman defeats a rifleman! So there is only one rifleman to attack next turn. 3 more longbowman next turn. Our swordsman army loses 8 straight to an egyptian calvary and is destroyed. The egyptians start TOE.

1325AD(10) We can make peace with the egyptians for 5gpt. I can also make peace with the iroqouis. I leave this to the next leader to decide. I would make peace with the egyptians and not the Iriqous because they are fighting american still. I switch everything that won't lose sheilds to spearman to build up defenses and build a settler in Teot to try and take back the land we lost to the egyptians.

1325AD
 
Wow. There were no signs of a war from anyone during my turn.

We could've tried to save the leader for ToE - if Suffrage didn't cascade we might've been able to accumulate enough lump-sum gold to buy Sci Method in time. But oh well.

Still looking pretty grim. That Iroquois war hurt our chance at diplo victory (but absolutely we had to do it)... be VERY nice to America and China from here on. :)
 
Perhaps I should have bought that MPP with Cleo after all, before handing off, instead of leaving it open. Hingsight's always 20-20 though. The reason I didn't spend us into debt on my turn (I could have) was that I had decided to go along with Zed's idea to stay out of debt, stick to cash. The rush forward in tech would have worked great if we'd had more time, but having to turn on the Iro's to cancel our debts does pretty much put the nail in the coffin for trying to win.

The reason I did NOT decide to buy the MPP right then is that Cleo had threatened us recently, and the AI's don't attack soon after extorting money that way. The payoff buys time. I did think it would be a major risk not to buy in to that deal eventually, though. Perhaps I should have expressed my concern more strongly. Turns out Cleo attacked approximately 20 turns after that last threat -- something for all to note.

This has been a hard road all the way. We'll see it out to the bitter end, come what may. :)


- Sirian
 
The old sneak attack, eh? I have noticed that it often seems to come when you have a bunch of luxury deals with the offending party. Maybe this is part of their strategy to cripple your civ (if I read correctly you had just traded for 3 lux with Egypt).

I have also noticed the extortion - giving time before the attack - thing. 20 turns makes intuitive sense. It is strange to be hoping that a neighbor will extort cash from you, but I have found myself doing just that at times.
 
1325 AD: Buy peace with Egypt for 5 gpt. Buy ROP, Alliance vs Iroquios, Furs, and Dyes for Wines and 42 gpt. Our reputation with China is now ruined as well, but the alternative is to try to hold out versus the Egyptians for a dozen more turns. Cavalry versus spearmen, and longbows versus rifles? Probably not possible. We are probably screwed for the vote now, but hopefully everyone else is as badly off. We stay at war with the Iros for now.

1330-1345 AD: We try to keep a low profile and rebuild our military. Egypt gets a settler to former Barcelona and Tlat before we can -- it is on their side of the gap and they do have rails, so this is not surprising.

1350 AD: Egypt builds Suffrage (they are Communist anyway.) Iros cascade to ToE and build it, they also land 3 cavs on our shores. America betrays us and signs a peace deal with the Iros.

1355 AD: We easily repulse the Iro landing with longbows. Good thing they didn't land any rifles... :)

1360 AD: Egypt betrays us and signs a peace treaty with the Iros. Quel surprise. :) At least we paid them in gpt. The Iros are shelling the heck out of our coastline and there isn't much we can do about it. I scroll ahead in our cities to prevent disorder.

1365 AD: Well, both America and Egypt betrayed us so I guess that means we have no reason not to make peace with the Iros. We do so for 10 gpt. America is about to wipe out China; if we could buy any techs off of him I would but he has none. Instead I revolt to Democracy; we need fast workers so we can build our railnet. First I renew our luxury deal with Egypt so we won't have too much trouble with happiness, and get them to throw in an ROP and a MPP into the bargain. Not that the treaties are worth the paper they are printed on, EVERYONE has broken deals with everyone else at one point or another, but now we have pretty much everyone but America against us, so we need at least one supposed ally. The good news is that at least America has now absorbed most of China so they ought to be a bit more competitive now, and they are still friendly with us even though they did betray us.

1375 AD: We complete one last round of military. I buy some Iron and a ROP from America for 1070 gold, and we start working on the railroad. I also sell wines to the Iros for Incense and gpt -- we don't really need the last lux yet but we will soon if some of our cities without cathedrals and/or markets keep growing (as they will.) I examined the possibilities of trading wines for tech but it seems to work like gpt and just inflates the price we have to pay, so we will now be forced to amass cash for tech. At least we can continue to sell our wines for gpt to help in that regard. I set us up for a round of workers before starting Factories in our major cities. We are up to 322 gpt in Democracy and have 675 in the bank so next turn we should be back around 1000 gold. Our lone scientist is currently in Intombe, which is working on a much-needed marketplace.

In other news, we are still sucking hind tit in just about every possible way, but at least we are now once again at peace... give us a couple centuries and we might even be in a position to defend ourselves. :)

EDIT: Note that I don't think we have to really worry about the vote much anymore. Right now America, Iros, and Egypt are all relatively close to being equal -- we can't win a vote, but neither can anyone else, so long as we abstain from voting. Our best shot for victory, scary as it may sound, is a space race. If the game goes on long enough and we survive well enough it might just be possible to sneak a victory out from under the AI's noses.

Save file:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe2-aztecs-1375ad.zip
 
Where there is life, there is hope. :)

And if there's no hope, well, at least there's the chance to thumb your nose at your betrayers a few times. :lol:

Never say die.


- Sirian
 
Yeah, it is still possible we could pull this one out of the fire... but the key will be making sure we don't fall too far behind in tech. Right now we know at least the Iros are already half an age ahead of us. Catching up could be a bit of a challenge given our current rep situation. Another big problem is that our best cities are not really set up to be industrial powerhouses -- our economy is very much sea-based. That could make building parts a bit challenging, though at least we have a few possibilities for prebuilds available. Even if we are in a position to make the attempt it will require some fancy footwork to pull it off.

It's looking less likely we will be able to take a bite out of Egypt when we get to Replaceable Parts, but I suppose we will have to consider how far ahead of us they are when we get there. We might be able to make an attempt at a limited war to reclaim some of the ground around our FP, if things turn out well for us over the next thirty or so turns.
 
Tech's going to be the limitation for space, not production. There's at least forty turns from the time Apollo's built (it can be long prebuilt) until all the spaceship techs are available. The spaceship parts cost a total of 3200 shields. Madrid all by itself with hospital/factory/coal plant could build 3200 shields in 40 turns (80/turn.)

How about this plan: Beg, borrow, and steal our way to Mech Infantry. If (and it's a big if, considering the resources) we can secure those, then do whatever it takes to bring everybody into a world war against Egypt as Sirian did here and I did here. Ride it out defensively forever (or maybe until modern armor, if we have those resources), and that will greatly slow everybody's progress towards space.

There also very well may be the option of nuking and capturing capitals... (where's Obsessed Nuker when you need him? :nuke: )
 
Actually, with this economy, we're not doing too badly. We lack for culture like nobody's business, but on the other hand, we're saving maybe 60gpt on maintenance because we don't have libraries, universities, colleseums, and in some of the fishing villages, much of anything at all. Plus income from our wines, and Wall Street, is helping.


This turn felt quick.

Early: Renew gems deal with America. Train workers. Build rails on shield tiles. Start some factories. Rushed the temple in New Mpondo. Sent a spearman over there.

Middle: Complete rails on all tiles in use. Start rest of our cities (the ones where it will do any good) on factories. I paid Egypt ~1860g for Corporation @3rd, traded that and ~300g more to America for Medicine @4th. I wanted electricity, but I didn't wait long enough to amass the extra cash.

Late: Completed rails on ALL vital tiles. What's left: most of the tundra, plus the two wasted plains tiles. With nine turns left on the iron deal, might as well chop the forests (harvest the shields toward factories), THEN build the rails, THEN replant. (Planting is better than mining, defensively. Forests can't be destroyed by bombing).

Final turn: Cleo attacks Abe, drawing us into the war via MPP. There goes our iron deal, our gems, and our last friend in this world. This may sound bad, but better her attacking Abe than her attacking us. We NEED to be largely left alone just a wee bit longer to get our factories built and some infantry and artillery online. We lost the gems, and next player may need to recheck for possible disorder. I forgot. I did send a few more units over to New Mpondo, as that is closest to America.

Note: Forests with rails through them have been chopped and replanted. I shaved TWO turns off the factory at Madrid with forest chops, also. That's due next turn, our first factory. (Who would have expected us to have a factory, and a viable civ with a slim hope of victory, after the combat luck I had on the opening turn of the war with the Zulu?)


Now check this thought: if we DO get into it with the Iro's via MPP with Cleo, we have the units to run a shore blockade at home. Can't put noncombat units on blockade duty -- that's an exploit -- but we could do so with gropo's.


Until Cleo makes peace with Abe, no use us doing so, even if he will talk to us. Having now gotten in bad with both Abe and Hi, we might as well stay in bed with Cleo the rest of this game, and keep paying her for MPP. Or, at least until we have a military.

The bad part about being at war with Abe: can't use him in the two-for-one tech trading. Since he'll be wrapped up for a while, we might as well go ahead and buy Sanitation from Cleo once we have enough cash to do so and still 1000 in the bank. The next priority tech is Electricity, as that one is holding up the entire lower branch at the moment, and getting to Rep Parts is the most urgent task at hand, for our security.


As for plans for how to win... the world is too volatile with all these wars to see that far ahead. Just keep inching forward. If the AI's make too much war, they'll be slowed and that's GOOD for our chances, even if bad for our nerves. :)


RBE2 Aztecs - 1425AD


Architect inherits another war. Heh. At least this time, the threat looks manageable.



- Sirian


PS: Do not change away from factory production. Without iron, the option to restart the factory later will not be there. We should have enough units to juggle around the cardboard cutouts even if America does land a force on our shores.
 
Back
Top Bottom