RBE DSG2 - It's a Small World After All
- Thread starter Sirian
- Start date
1425AD(0) Intombe switches to scientist to prevent disorder next turn.
1430AD(1) We complete a factory in Madrid and I begin construction of a coal plant. Mid turn the americans land 4 calvary next to Mpondo.
1435AD(2) I send 2 more longbowmen and 2 spearman over to defend. We lose 2 longbowmen and kill one calvary. I rush another longbowmen in Mpondo. I can't wait for Guerilla's in situations like this... An egyptian calvary takes out one of the American units.
1440AD(3) Our longbowmen defeat one calvary and cause another to retreat into Egyptian lands. I have created a stack of workers that can plant, chop, and rebuild a square in one turn and will use it to milk everything I can.
1445AD(4) I chop off one turn on our coal plant. I buy sanitation for 860g.
1450AD(5) Our coal plant completes in Madrid and I start a Hospital.
1455AD(6) ...
1460AD(7) ...
1465AD(8) Nothing going on but ships moving around our coast. I am unable to reasonably renegotiate our MPP with Egypt. She wants well over a 1000 gold for it.
1470AD(9) ...
1475AD(10) ...
Not much happening this turn. I saved up a big nest egg for the next leader.
1475AD
1430AD(1) We complete a factory in Madrid and I begin construction of a coal plant. Mid turn the americans land 4 calvary next to Mpondo.
1435AD(2) I send 2 more longbowmen and 2 spearman over to defend. We lose 2 longbowmen and kill one calvary. I rush another longbowmen in Mpondo. I can't wait for Guerilla's in situations like this... An egyptian calvary takes out one of the American units.
1440AD(3) Our longbowmen defeat one calvary and cause another to retreat into Egyptian lands. I have created a stack of workers that can plant, chop, and rebuild a square in one turn and will use it to milk everything I can.
1445AD(4) I chop off one turn on our coal plant. I buy sanitation for 860g.
1450AD(5) Our coal plant completes in Madrid and I start a Hospital.
1455AD(6) ...
1460AD(7) ...
1465AD(8) Nothing going on but ships moving around our coast. I am unable to reasonably renegotiate our MPP with Egypt. She wants well over a 1000 gold for it.
1470AD(9) ...
1475AD(10) ...
Not much happening this turn. I saved up a big nest egg for the next leader.
1475AD
T-hawk
Transcend
Got it, will play tomorrow night. Guess I'll have to do some tech buying, but won't go quite as much into debt as on my last turn 
T-hawk
Transcend
By tomorrow night, I meant Saturday afternoon. I peeked at the save, though. Do we have any reason not to make peace with America (besides getting them to stay in Monarchy which may be enough reason by itself) or not to renegotiate the wines-spices deal with Iroquois?
Oh, and what in the world is San Antone trying to prebuild with a Palace?
I peeked at the save, though. Do we have any reason not to make peace with America (besides getting them to stay in Monarchy which may be enough reason by itself) or not to renegotiate the wines-spices deal with Iroquois?Oh, and what in the world is San Antone trying to prebuild with a Palace?
America would not talk to me my entire turn so I suspect they just now want to make peace. The Iroquois deal just came up also. I rarely make diplomatic decisions on the last turn unless it gains a critical advantage or I have some plan. In this case I didn't even check diplomacy the last turn.
A palace was the closest thing to the Alamo I could find...
Really I just didn't think there was anything else worth building and I was hoping that it would be a prebuild for a factory. Feel free to veto...
A palace was the closest thing to the Alamo I could find...
Really I just didn't think there was anything else worth building and I was hoping that it would be a prebuild for a factory. Feel free to veto...
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
San Antone is not worth a factory. That's why I didn't have it on a factory to end my round. At best it can work two hills at break-even food, or that and some forest at food deficit short term, then run no shields to recover. Rather than invest 240 shields so we can get a couple of spt at a cost of 3gpt AND pollution risks, use the 240 to build the stuff we might some day want there... like the library I had it building. If we do end up in a space race, running our own research @1st on a tech or two might be the game maker. The culture wouldn't hurt us, either. Those were the factors going into my decision there.
- Sirian
- Sirian
T-hawk
Transcend
University in San Antonio it is (it's got a library.) I will let it run max food until it grows, though. Santiago also reassigned to max food. MM to save a turn on hospital at Tlatelolco.
We have Iroquois Incense + 18/turn for our Wines up for renegotiation. We really can't go without the incense right now, but I'd rather apply the cost difference towards getting a tech. Oh, right, we can't trade per-turn for tech. Renewed for 18/turn.
Tough call whether to make peace with America. They have 24 gpt available that they could trade for our wines starting immediately, and there may be brokering opportunity between them and Egypt. I decide not quite yet - that 24 is somewhat below market value, and we don't have the cash on hand to buy more than one tech to broker, and we do want to keep them in Monarchy (although they will stay there as long as they're at war with Egypt.)
1490: Nationalism finishes at long, long last. Believe it or not, we could actually research techs ourselves in only 9-10 turns at 100% science. It's still cheaper to buy, though.
With Nationalism in hand, I decide it's time to pay out for Replaceable Parts so the glass-ceiling drafts can get infantry. America actually would sell it for 100g less if we made peace, but I buy it from Iroquois for 2020g. 2040g then gets us Rep Parts from the Iroquois as well. Fortunately, we have rubber, and now we have three conscript infantry. I ship one over to Mpondo, and Madrid starts building some real infantry.
Where to set the lone scientist? I put him on Refining; it's the most expensive tech of the ones available, and I think we can last 40 turns before needing to buy in to Flight or Tanks.
In 1515 AD, the first AI (Iroquois) starts the Hoover Dam.
And that's about all that happened. Built colosseums after hospitals. Started Battlefield Medicine but not the Military Academy. We have enough cash again to buy another tech; up to the next leader. I realized I should've paid the extra 100g or so to buy from Egypt instead of Iroquois, because the Iros are still in Democracy and may run away with the space race. (It was always "never accept such a deal" for any alliance or MPP proposal with them; couldn't get them into war.)
I did not see an American unit the whole time. America is still at war with both Egypt and us. On the last interturn, Egypt moved an escorted galleon between Mpondo and Texcoco; no idea what she's up to but we should be safe with infantry.
An updated map for the spectators:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe2-aztecs-1525ad.zip
We have Iroquois Incense + 18/turn for our Wines up for renegotiation. We really can't go without the incense right now, but I'd rather apply the cost difference towards getting a tech. Oh, right, we can't trade per-turn for tech. Renewed for 18/turn.
Tough call whether to make peace with America. They have 24 gpt available that they could trade for our wines starting immediately, and there may be brokering opportunity between them and Egypt. I decide not quite yet - that 24 is somewhat below market value, and we don't have the cash on hand to buy more than one tech to broker, and we do want to keep them in Monarchy (although they will stay there as long as they're at war with Egypt.)
1490: Nationalism finishes at long, long last. Believe it or not, we could actually research techs ourselves in only 9-10 turns at 100% science. It's still cheaper to buy, though.
With Nationalism in hand, I decide it's time to pay out for Replaceable Parts so the glass-ceiling drafts can get infantry. America actually would sell it for 100g less if we made peace, but I buy it from Iroquois for 2020g. 2040g then gets us Rep Parts from the Iroquois as well. Fortunately, we have rubber, and now we have three conscript infantry. I ship one over to Mpondo, and Madrid starts building some real infantry.
Where to set the lone scientist? I put him on Refining; it's the most expensive tech of the ones available, and I think we can last 40 turns before needing to buy in to Flight or Tanks.
In 1515 AD, the first AI (Iroquois) starts the Hoover Dam.
And that's about all that happened. Built colosseums after hospitals. Started Battlefield Medicine but not the Military Academy. We have enough cash again to buy another tech; up to the next leader. I realized I should've paid the extra 100g or so to buy from Egypt instead of Iroquois, because the Iros are still in Democracy and may run away with the space race. (It was always "never accept such a deal" for any alliance or MPP proposal with them; couldn't get them into war.)
I did not see an American unit the whole time. America is still at war with both Egypt and us. On the last interturn, Egypt moved an escorted galleon between Mpondo and Texcoco; no idea what she's up to but we should be safe with infantry.
An updated map for the spectators:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe2-aztecs-1525ad.zip
T-hawk
Transcend
Epic yes, academy no. Didn't see a point to building more armies before we had infantry to put in them
BTW, Zed's up, smegged on deck.
BTW, Zed's up, smegged on deck.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
A fortification, some artillery and a minisod of infantry, on the choke point, could ensure our survival, perhaps even against tanks. That would force Cleo, if she does pull a suprise attack, to move through the teeth of a well defended position and/or land amphibious assaults.
Even though it's 140g per, to upgrade vet spears to infantry, we could do seven of those in lieu of 1k spent to renew MPP, and stack ten or twelve in the fort, with some guns, and be assured of not losing any further ground on the mainland via surprise attack. Mpondo remains somewhat vulnerable... and that 1k is 1k less toward tech parity, but first things first. Security must remain a priority.
We'll also soon have to concern ourselves with AI marines. Don't let defenses slack in our key cities.
- Sirian
Even though it's 140g per, to upgrade vet spears to infantry, we could do seven of those in lieu of 1k spent to renew MPP, and stack ten or twelve in the fort, with some guns, and be assured of not losing any further ground on the mainland via surprise attack. Mpondo remains somewhat vulnerable... and that 1k is 1k less toward tech parity, but first things first. Security must remain a priority.
We'll also soon have to concern ourselves with AI marines. Don't let defenses slack in our key cities.
- Sirian
T-hawk
Transcend
There's also War-Time Mobilization. Since we can make peace with America anytime, we could consider mobilizing for a bit to get those artillery and infantry produced. And if Cleo IS up to something right now, we should do so right away, I think. Just something to keep in mind.
I'd say not to spend cash on upgrading until/unless Cleo or Hiawatha actually does attack; 1k is half a tech.
I'd say not to spend cash on upgrading until/unless Cleo or Hiawatha actually does attack; 1k is half a tech.
Early turns: Why do we want battlefield medicine? Shouldn't we save it (along with Military Academy) for a prebuild? Monty is building Hoover in a shield-poor city but even if we could get the tech we can't sneak it out from under his nose as none of our cities have rivers. :/ Why for Pete's sake is there a Factory in Intombe??? It will never have enough shields to justify it. It needs a Market/Bank/Cathedral far more urgently.
If we have not seen any American units, then there is no point in maintaining this phony war with the US. They will stay in Monarchy by virtue of their war with Egypt, and in any case the Iros are in the lead; we want them to be the ones that get picked on, not the 3rd place Americans. I make peace and get an ROP for 125 gold (generous), then buy Espionage for 900 @ miser. I also pick up American Ivory for a small gpt payment & some wines; we have to pay a small amount because America doesn't have access to Egyptian luxes to bump up the value of ours. Swap Battlefield Medicine for Intelligence Agency; this might be useful for the space race later.
It's a tough call as to how may cities we want to maximize size and therefore production in. Right now I'm thinking in order to build spaceship parts we want to have 3 cities as big as we can make them rather than have 5 cities that are each fairly big but not really big. The 3 cities I select are Madrid, Tenotihuacan, and Bapedi. These will be our best cities; everything else must be sacrificed to ensure they are contenders for building parts. Tenochitlan, Tlateloco, and perhaps Bogota will still be important cities but not supercities. Intombe, Texoco, San Antonio, and Santiago will lose out, but at least can contribute cash. Too bad that Teotihuacan has so much coast, but Tlateloco just has too much overlap with Bapedi to be a serious candidate. Note: this could cause some problems with lux further down the line but if it gets to be too big an issue we can always redistribute some population from our big 3 cities back to Tlateloco and Tenochitlan. By my count we have 9 happy faces in Madrid which means we can support a max pop of 18 in any of our biggest cities with no lux tax, providing all happiness improvements are built and we have traded for all available lux, so that's what I'm going to target.
I rush a marketplace in Intombe for 396 gold as it is having major happiness problems. Bogota needs to take some grasslands from Tenochitlan and build a Hospital if it is to work all its forest tiles, so I go ahead ans do that to get Bogata growing. This will mean both Bogata and Tenochitlan will be semi-useful and only costs 2 tiles out of Tenochitlan; most importantly it means we will be working all possible tiles so we will maximize our cashflow. Bogata still needs a lot of improvement to this end though, as it's missing a hospital, bank, cathedral, colosseum, and even a courthouse -- the result of centuries of neglect in favour of Tenochitlan. Tlateloco starts building workers to siphon off pop and send to other cities. Since there's a factory in Intombe I guess I will use it. I temporarily steal a bunch of tiles from Tlateloco to build a bank. Tlateloco's just building workers right now anyway.
Middle turns: Not much happens. We build some workers out of Tlateloco and merge some workers into other cities that can't grow very quickly on their own. Don't draft any pop out of cities that can't grow effectively, which includes any coastal city without access to grasslands (check which tiles the city is working.) In fact I would say forget the draft entirely as we need the cash from worked tiles much more than conscripts now that we are starting to build real military. We build the Intelligence Agency in Madrid and a couple Universities in Bapedi and Teotihuacan, and these cities start building military. Bogata and Tenochitlan build Coal Plants; the former starts a Hospital and the latter a University. We start trying to plant spies in enemy civs. Global warming hits a forest, which we immediately replant. I also do some lumberjacking near San Antonio, but I can't mark the tiles with rails since we don't have any iron and I'm not going to buy Iron just to mark lumberjacked tiles. I think our lumberjacking days are about over anyway so I go ahead and replant everything.
Late turns: Again not too much happens. We comlpete the Bank in Intombe and return the loaned tiles to Tlateloco, which has started a University. We now have spies in every enemy civ, an infantry in every city, and our first artillery piece. Our cities for the most part are all sized appropriately for their roles and are working the correct tiles to ensure they grow to their optimal sizes for building spaceship parts. You could squeeze a bit more military out of Tlateloco by altering this arrangement but it does not really seem worthwhile to me; I don't think we're likely to attack anything soon. Our core cities are still on extra food for the most part as they still have some growing to do, though Bogata is still struggling a bit in that regard since it is on max shields until its hospital completes. Our lone scientist is currently in Texoco. We have a substantial wad of cash to spend on tech (5570/+410 gpt) but I didn't think there really was anything that we need in the short term so I just sat on it. I did renew a the lux deal with Egypt and wound up having to pay 12gpt to keep it going, but that's much cheaper than adding lux tax.
Image:
Save file:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe2-aztecs-1575ad.zip
If we have not seen any American units, then there is no point in maintaining this phony war with the US. They will stay in Monarchy by virtue of their war with Egypt, and in any case the Iros are in the lead; we want them to be the ones that get picked on, not the 3rd place Americans. I make peace and get an ROP for 125 gold (generous), then buy Espionage for 900 @ miser. I also pick up American Ivory for a small gpt payment & some wines; we have to pay a small amount because America doesn't have access to Egyptian luxes to bump up the value of ours. Swap Battlefield Medicine for Intelligence Agency; this might be useful for the space race later.
It's a tough call as to how may cities we want to maximize size and therefore production in. Right now I'm thinking in order to build spaceship parts we want to have 3 cities as big as we can make them rather than have 5 cities that are each fairly big but not really big. The 3 cities I select are Madrid, Tenotihuacan, and Bapedi. These will be our best cities; everything else must be sacrificed to ensure they are contenders for building parts. Tenochitlan, Tlateloco, and perhaps Bogota will still be important cities but not supercities. Intombe, Texoco, San Antonio, and Santiago will lose out, but at least can contribute cash. Too bad that Teotihuacan has so much coast, but Tlateloco just has too much overlap with Bapedi to be a serious candidate. Note: this could cause some problems with lux further down the line but if it gets to be too big an issue we can always redistribute some population from our big 3 cities back to Tlateloco and Tenochitlan. By my count we have 9 happy faces in Madrid which means we can support a max pop of 18 in any of our biggest cities with no lux tax, providing all happiness improvements are built and we have traded for all available lux, so that's what I'm going to target.
I rush a marketplace in Intombe for 396 gold as it is having major happiness problems. Bogota needs to take some grasslands from Tenochitlan and build a Hospital if it is to work all its forest tiles, so I go ahead ans do that to get Bogata growing. This will mean both Bogata and Tenochitlan will be semi-useful and only costs 2 tiles out of Tenochitlan; most importantly it means we will be working all possible tiles so we will maximize our cashflow. Bogata still needs a lot of improvement to this end though, as it's missing a hospital, bank, cathedral, colosseum, and even a courthouse -- the result of centuries of neglect in favour of Tenochitlan. Tlateloco starts building workers to siphon off pop and send to other cities. Since there's a factory in Intombe I guess I will use it. I temporarily steal a bunch of tiles from Tlateloco to build a bank. Tlateloco's just building workers right now anyway.
Middle turns: Not much happens. We build some workers out of Tlateloco and merge some workers into other cities that can't grow very quickly on their own. Don't draft any pop out of cities that can't grow effectively, which includes any coastal city without access to grasslands (check which tiles the city is working.) In fact I would say forget the draft entirely as we need the cash from worked tiles much more than conscripts now that we are starting to build real military. We build the Intelligence Agency in Madrid and a couple Universities in Bapedi and Teotihuacan, and these cities start building military. Bogata and Tenochitlan build Coal Plants; the former starts a Hospital and the latter a University. We start trying to plant spies in enemy civs. Global warming hits a forest, which we immediately replant. I also do some lumberjacking near San Antonio, but I can't mark the tiles with rails since we don't have any iron and I'm not going to buy Iron just to mark lumberjacked tiles.
I think our lumberjacking days are about over anyway so I go ahead and replant everything.Late turns: Again not too much happens. We comlpete the Bank in Intombe and return the loaned tiles to Tlateloco, which has started a University. We now have spies in every enemy civ, an infantry in every city, and our first artillery piece. Our cities for the most part are all sized appropriately for their roles and are working the correct tiles to ensure they grow to their optimal sizes for building spaceship parts. You could squeeze a bit more military out of Tlateloco by altering this arrangement but it does not really seem worthwhile to me; I don't think we're likely to attack anything soon. Our core cities are still on extra food for the most part as they still have some growing to do, though Bogata is still struggling a bit in that regard since it is on max shields until its hospital completes. Our lone scientist is currently in Texoco. We have a substantial wad of cash to spend on tech (5570/+410 gpt) but I didn't think there really was anything that we need in the short term so I just sat on it. I did renew a the lux deal with Egypt and wound up having to pay 12gpt to keep it going, but that's much cheaper than adding lux tax.
Image:
Save file:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe2-aztecs-1575ad.zip
Hmm, was already playing before you posted, so no mobilization and we're at peace. I wanted the luxuries for bigger cities. Nothing bad happened yet; we have an ROP with Cleo but no MPP. A couple forts and some more guns in them sounds like a plan to me, we've got an infantry in each city now so we could potentially start putting some newly built ones in forts.
Nothing bad happened yet; we have an ROP with Cleo but no MPP. A couple forts and some more guns in them sounds like a plan to me, we've got an infantry in each city now so we could potentially start putting some newly built ones in forts.Are we def. going for space race then?
I think we're going to have to attack the Iroqouis and/or Egypt to slow them down once the world settles into the Modern age to win the space race. If this is true then why don't we concentrate on building up our military? Let's build the military academy now, build some calvary armies (we can only build 2 though) and go on the offensive. In 20 to 30 turns of war time mobilization we should be able to build 60 artillery, 40 infantry, and 30 calvary. If we create one more city we can boost our army count to 3.
We then take this force and attack egypt with the goal of knocking out at least Thebes. If we do it right, we can use the armies to take out the artillery battered cities and keep our democracy as long as possible. I won my DSG qualification game with calvary armies attacking cities with infantry defenders.
Playing catch-up like this always paying for tech and then hoping to win a space-race victory seems very risky. Our biggest advantage always in Civ is our ability to wage war intelligently compared to the brain-dead AI. Who knows, if the war against egypt goes as well as I think it can we might just take it to the rest of the world and punish them all for their transgressions...
I think we're going to have to attack the Iroqouis and/or Egypt to slow them down once the world settles into the Modern age to win the space race. If this is true then why don't we concentrate on building up our military? Let's build the military academy now, build some calvary armies (we can only build 2 though) and go on the offensive. In 20 to 30 turns of war time mobilization we should be able to build 60 artillery, 40 infantry, and 30 calvary. If we create one more city we can boost our army count to 3.
We then take this force and attack egypt with the goal of knocking out at least Thebes. If we do it right, we can use the armies to take out the artillery battered cities and keep our democracy as long as possible. I won my DSG qualification game with calvary armies attacking cities with infantry defenders.
Playing catch-up like this always paying for tech and then hoping to win a space-race victory seems very risky. Our biggest advantage always in Civ is our ability to wage war intelligently compared to the brain-dead AI. Who knows, if the war against egypt goes as well as I think it can we might just take it to the rest of the world and punish them all for their transgressions...
T-hawk
Transcend
It's too late to really add any core cities, given the buildings they'd need to build, and we have no need to attack Egypt just to slow them down while she's still in Communism. It's the Iros that are running away with the game.
Bad as the AIs are at war, the Iroquois can still outproduce us by three to one, given their size and Deity build speed. We'd need a very shield-efficient military to beat them, which cavalry armies are not. Counting the Mil Academy, two cavalry armies would cost 1680 shields! That's 16 tanks! And our opponents may get tanks before we get that built. Tanks SHRED cavalry armies, not to mention that they'll soon have air support as well.
I'm all for going after the Iros eventually, or Egypt if she gets back into democracy, but not till tanks; and if they get to mechs we'll need MAs or nukes or both. Build arty now, since that works well defensively in the meantime.
It"ll also depend on where the uranium is. We may want to pursue military aggression just to monopolize the world's uranium supply. Sole control of either the Fuel Cells or nukes wins the game.
Bad as the AIs are at war, the Iroquois can still outproduce us by three to one, given their size and Deity build speed. We'd need a very shield-efficient military to beat them, which cavalry armies are not. Counting the Mil Academy, two cavalry armies would cost 1680 shields! That's 16 tanks! And our opponents may get tanks before we get that built. Tanks SHRED cavalry armies, not to mention that they'll soon have air support as well.
I'm all for going after the Iros eventually, or Egypt if she gets back into democracy, but not till tanks; and if they get to mechs we'll need MAs or nukes or both. Build arty now, since that works well defensively in the meantime.
It"ll also depend on where the uranium is. We may want to pursue military aggression just to monopolize the world's uranium supply. Sole control of either the Fuel Cells or nukes wins the game.
T-hawk
Transcend
Responding to Zed - The Palace is all the prebuilding you really need; only the UN, Apollo itself, and the final ship part will need prebuilding.
3 powerful cities - good idea. Also, it'll be safe to concede the UN instead of spending 1000 shields. No AI can win by diplo, since the winner would need all three remaining AI votes, and there will always be two AIs eligible who'll vote for themselves. (Oddly enough, it would take us being eligible for us to lose! The Iros haven't been at war and could get all three AI votes if running against us.)
Spending a quarter of a tech to avoid a couple entertainers in Intombe? Not what I'd do, but at least it'll return some gold, being a marketplace. Bogota was never supposed to be much more than a fishing village borrowing arable land when it could.
The only drafts I did were at the size-12 limit, which is no longer an issue.
Everyone, feel free to post and discuss; we'll need plenty of teamwork to pull this off. I know we can do it
3 powerful cities - good idea. Also, it'll be safe to concede the UN instead of spending 1000 shields. No AI can win by diplo, since the winner would need all three remaining AI votes, and there will always be two AIs eligible who'll vote for themselves. (Oddly enough, it would take us being eligible for us to lose! The Iros haven't been at war and could get all three AI votes if running against us.)
Spending a quarter of a tech to avoid a couple entertainers in Intombe? Not what I'd do, but at least it'll return some gold, being a marketplace. Bogota was never supposed to be much more than a fishing village borrowing arable land when it could.
The only drafts I did were at the size-12 limit, which is no longer an issue.
Everyone, feel free to post and discuss; we'll need plenty of teamwork to pull this off. I know we can do it
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
smegged has missed the last couple turns and several throughout. After working so hard to qualify, I wouldn't want to see him warming the bench and holding the clipboard while the rest of us march on to what (if we do pull it out) would be one for the ages.
- Sirian
- Sirian
It looks like the latest save game link is bad.
The fear of getting overrun by the AI with tanks is giving them way to much credit. The AI's currently, which I can't 100% verify because the save isn't there, but I know from experience, have a gigantic army of middle age units right now along with a smattering of infantry, rifleman, and artillery. They may get MT for tanks, but they won't have the smarts to suddenly mobilize their economy to produce an effective tank force. They just don't do this in my experience. Instead they evaluate the overall situation irregardless of what is really going on techwise at the time to determine what they build. That's why the AI continues to build wonders while their cities burn. A 3 to 1 shield production would be threatening if the AI was just building the correct military units. Instead they build wonders, useless navies, jets, too much infantry etc.
I think both of the failed invasions by the egyptians proves how ineffective the AI, even at Diety, is at waging war. Do you really fear the Iroqouis landing an amphibious assualt against us that we could not handle easily? The last war they dropped a SINGLE calvary on our shore. That was only momentarily scary because we had no defenses. Now we will pick apart whatever force they land on our shore with likely no losses because of a huge artillery force.
The reason to attack Egypt is because they deserve it and we can walk up to their cities without building a navy. Creating a world war against the egyptians will slow everything down allowing calvary its last gasp at effectiveness. Something I forgot last night was we can build horseman and then upgrade to calvary. If we forgo buying more techs and just build up funds during the mobilization period I estimate we could have 15000g, enough to upgrade 150 horsemen to calvary. So if we did 150 calvary, 60 artillery and 40 infantry, we would still have ~150gpt income when we start the war.
Everybody thinks you need tanks to wage wars at this point in the game and I disagree. Waiting for tanks means we might start seeing mech infantry while we are fighting and it means we will be giving our opponents scads of cash to upgrade and modernize their armies and infastructure. It will also allow them to make trades with each other and speed up the tech race considerably. We need to slow the whole world down not dump thousands of gold into the AI economies.
I don't want to wait for tanks to mobilize, so if there's any voting going on my vote is to mobilize now, build up lots of artillery, infantry and calvary (armies or not) and run egypt off our continent. This will knock out a constant threat, give us more land for potential aluminum and uranium, two more luxuries, iron, saltpeter, 3 more sources of coal at least and the position to do whatever we want afterwards.
The fear of getting overrun by the AI with tanks is giving them way to much credit. The AI's currently, which I can't 100% verify because the save isn't there, but I know from experience, have a gigantic army of middle age units right now along with a smattering of infantry, rifleman, and artillery. They may get MT for tanks, but they won't have the smarts to suddenly mobilize their economy to produce an effective tank force. They just don't do this in my experience. Instead they evaluate the overall situation irregardless of what is really going on techwise at the time to determine what they build. That's why the AI continues to build wonders while their cities burn. A 3 to 1 shield production would be threatening if the AI was just building the correct military units. Instead they build wonders, useless navies, jets, too much infantry etc.
I think both of the failed invasions by the egyptians proves how ineffective the AI, even at Diety, is at waging war. Do you really fear the Iroqouis landing an amphibious assualt against us that we could not handle easily? The last war they dropped a SINGLE calvary on our shore. That was only momentarily scary because we had no defenses. Now we will pick apart whatever force they land on our shore with likely no losses because of a huge artillery force.
The reason to attack Egypt is because they deserve it and we can walk up to their cities without building a navy. Creating a world war against the egyptians will slow everything down allowing calvary its last gasp at effectiveness. Something I forgot last night was we can build horseman and then upgrade to calvary. If we forgo buying more techs and just build up funds during the mobilization period I estimate we could have 15000g, enough to upgrade 150 horsemen to calvary. So if we did 150 calvary, 60 artillery and 40 infantry, we would still have ~150gpt income when we start the war.
Everybody thinks you need tanks to wage wars at this point in the game and I disagree. Waiting for tanks means we might start seeing mech infantry while we are fighting and it means we will be giving our opponents scads of cash to upgrade and modernize their armies and infastructure. It will also allow them to make trades with each other and speed up the tech race considerably. We need to slow the whole world down not dump thousands of gold into the AI economies.
I don't want to wait for tanks to mobilize, so if there's any voting going on my vote is to mobilize now, build up lots of artillery, infantry and calvary (armies or not) and run egypt off our continent. This will knock out a constant threat, give us more land for potential aluminum and uranium, two more luxuries, iron, saltpeter, 3 more sources of coal at least and the position to do whatever we want afterwards.
OK, the file is there now.
I didn't just spend the cash at Intombe to avoid entertainers, I spent it to (a) allow it to grow to 12, and (b) multiply its value in providing us cash for tech. Same goes for the bank built with borrowed tiles from Tlat. Cash is our biggest worry for now.
As for Bogata, my point is that now that we have rails it is in a position to become much more than a fishing village, it is as much a full-fledged city as Tenochitlan or Tlateloco, and is pumping out about 30spt. We couldn't have done this before rails, so most of that centuries of neglect was unavoidable, but at least we can rectify the situation now.
BTW, Teno and Tlateloco are building universities but if we don't think we will be researching anything and don't think we want the culture we could swap them to military (probaly arty) now and build the unis later. Our big 3 cities all already have unis.
Incidentally, the Iros have been at war with both America and Egypt in the past.
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EDIT: Whoa Architect, down boy! I just checked on the state of the world militarily speaking using our spies (should have done this during my turn and reported then) but the Egyptians already have 108 Infantry. The Iroquois have 86 Infantry, a Tank, and 13 Bombers. They also have Destroyers and Battleships while everyone else has at best Ironclads. In fact, the Iros are already in the Modern Age, meaning we are almost a full age behind them. I don't think a war using Cavs is in the cards in this situation. It would be a brutal uphill battle and certainly cost us the game at this point, if it's not already lost.
Getting everyone to gang up on Egypt might be nice from a just desserts point of view and because we have the most chance of making gains there, but I would rather get everyone lined up against the Iros, e.g. MPP with America and Egypt and declare on the Iros, letting them attack us. This will cost us the least in terms of unhappiness due to lost lux deals (though we will have to swap to Monarchy in order to avoid weariness and get the MP bonus) and give us the least to worry about as far as actually being attacked on land goes. Moreover, it will go the furthest towards bringing the world back into tech parity and giving us a chance to catch up on that front, as all the Iro cities would hopefully be forced to go into disorder due to lost trades and war weariness. We should consider doing this ASAP IMO now that we have the ability to produce some defenders to prevent the Iros from running away with it. If we do, we should expect to get creamed by Iro bombers and naval bombardment as soon as we start this program though so we will need Iron to replace our rails. Unfortunately Intombe, Tenochitlan, Bogata, and Santiago are all in bombing range of Iro cities (and everything's in range of naval bombardment) so we may take a pounding on that score as well. Another problem is that the Iros rule the seas right now as no-one else has the ability to perform a credible naval invasion. We could theoretically build some transports on Iro soil and land some infantry on Iro soil to go pillaging but it would probably be a suicide mission for the transports as well as the Infantry. Maybe if we mobilize for war and buy up some key techs on the military branch we could build up our own navy; that might give the Iros something to shoot at besides our cities. I know Egypt has a transport so they at least have the tech for destroyers.
I looked at the possibility of forming a trade embargo against the Iros but there's no way that will happen.
Another option would be to get everyone involved in a war against the Iros and then betray the Egyptians to try to get some more territory out of them, but I don't think that will fly. We just don't have enough troops to be able to consider offensive operations right now.
I didn't just spend the cash at Intombe to avoid entertainers, I spent it to (a) allow it to grow to 12, and (b) multiply its value in providing us cash for tech. Same goes for the bank built with borrowed tiles from Tlat. Cash is our biggest worry for now.
As for Bogata, my point is that now that we have rails it is in a position to become much more than a fishing village, it is as much a full-fledged city as Tenochitlan or Tlateloco, and is pumping out about 30spt. We couldn't have done this before rails, so most of that centuries of neglect was unavoidable, but at least we can rectify the situation now.
BTW, Teno and Tlateloco are building universities but if we don't think we will be researching anything and don't think we want the culture we could swap them to military (probaly arty) now and build the unis later. Our big 3 cities all already have unis.
Incidentally, the Iros have been at war with both America and Egypt in the past.
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EDIT: Whoa Architect, down boy!
I just checked on the state of the world militarily speaking using our spies (should have done this during my turn and reported then) but the Egyptians already have 108 Infantry. The Iroquois have 86 Infantry, a Tank, and 13 Bombers. They also have Destroyers and Battleships while everyone else has at best Ironclads. In fact, the Iros are already in the Modern Age, meaning we are almost a full age behind them. I don't think a war using Cavs is in the cards in this situation. It would be a brutal uphill battle and certainly cost us the game at this point, if it's not already lost. Getting everyone to gang up on Egypt might be nice from a just desserts point of view and because we have the most chance of making gains there, but I would rather get everyone lined up against the Iros, e.g. MPP with America and Egypt and declare on the Iros, letting them attack us. This will cost us the least in terms of unhappiness due to lost lux deals (though we will have to swap to Monarchy in order to avoid weariness and get the MP bonus) and give us the least to worry about as far as actually being attacked on land goes. Moreover, it will go the furthest towards bringing the world back into tech parity and giving us a chance to catch up on that front, as all the Iro cities would hopefully be forced to go into disorder due to lost trades and war weariness. We should consider doing this ASAP IMO now that we have the ability to produce some defenders to prevent the Iros from running away with it. If we do, we should expect to get creamed by Iro bombers and naval bombardment as soon as we start this program though so we will need Iron to replace our rails. Unfortunately Intombe, Tenochitlan, Bogata, and Santiago are all in bombing range of Iro cities (and everything's in range of naval bombardment) so we may take a pounding on that score as well. Another problem is that the Iros rule the seas right now as no-one else has the ability to perform a credible naval invasion. We could theoretically build some transports on Iro soil and land some infantry on Iro soil to go pillaging but it would probably be a suicide mission for the transports as well as the Infantry. Maybe if we mobilize for war and buy up some key techs on the military branch we could build up our own navy; that might give the Iros something to shoot at besides our cities. I know Egypt has a transport so they at least have the tech for destroyers.
I looked at the possibility of forming a trade embargo against the Iros but there's no way that will happen.
Another option would be to get everyone involved in a war against the Iros and then betray the Egyptians to try to get some more territory out of them, but I don't think that will fly. We just don't have enough troops to be able to consider offensive operations right now.
T-hawk
Transcend
Wow, I hadn't realized we were quite that far behind, either on military or tech. No chance of going anywhere against the Iros before modern armor (they'll have mechs by the time we build 150 cavalry).
We're going to have to pull every trick in the book to prevent launches: capture capitals; possibly nuke them; possibly take control of the world's uranium; maybe just prevent the Iros from getting resources, by pillaging theirs and surrounding the Iro capital and pillage its roads, keeping them from trading for uranium or the MA resources...
But first we need to spend every penny we've got on buying techs to get anywhere near them.
BTW - one detail - if we want war against the Iros, it's guaranteed that we can get them to declare (demand withdrawal or do cheap "immediate" espionage), for purposes of war weariness and getting other civs to ally with us. We can hold out in Democracy for at least a little while in that case.
We're going to have to pull every trick in the book to prevent launches: capture capitals; possibly nuke them; possibly take control of the world's uranium; maybe just prevent the Iros from getting resources, by pillaging theirs and surrounding the Iro capital and pillage its roads, keeping them from trading for uranium or the MA resources...
But first we need to spend every penny we've got on buying techs to get anywhere near them.
BTW - one detail - if we want war against the Iros, it's guaranteed that we can get them to declare (demand withdrawal or do cheap "immediate" espionage), for purposes of war weariness and getting other civs to ally with us. We can hold out in Democracy for at least a little while in that case.
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