Real History Vs. Percieved History

[warpus]

Ok, we all know that past events and cultures shape today's and tomorrow's, so what are some examples where we have a false image of the past?

So far i've got how some seem to glorify older music because everything was great, even though if you ask them they can probably only name 20 bands from that era, even though there has always been a 10:1 bad to good ratio of music. is it because we wipe out the bad and put the good on a pedestal when it comes to some things in history and in the present we only see the bad?

anyways, take my post and run.

How about that made up fact about Columbus wanting to prove that the world was round to the Spanish Queen?

That's still taught to kids in some places, as far as I know, and it's not true at all - it was well known during Columbus' time that the Earth is round.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yeah, Columbus wasn't denied funding by most of the monarchs he petitioned because they thought the Earth was flat and he would fall off, but because they believed that the Earth was too big for the trip to be feasible and that he would probably run into some other landmass blocking his way to Asia if he didn't die at sea first. They were completely correct.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Moderator Action: Moved to History.

 

[zjl56]

A few I have seen:

A weird almost legendary status given the last Hapsburg Emp. and Nicholas the second despite their largely poor leadership.
Apologists for Franco ignoring any of his atrocities and only focusing on a few tiny positives.

The realigning of ancient rebellions to fit current rebellions has been used often. PRC historians glorified, largely have stopped now, the Taiping an An Shi rebellions as communistic. This mode of thinking goes against the actual reasons for the rebellions, and eliminates the teaching of the brutality that both caused.

There is still an old style of teaching in many schools regarding the Arab and Byzantine worlds. The common conception is that the territory lost from the Byzantines and the Western Roman empire was uncivilized. But, the fringes of this Italian and Greek centered world yielded Cordoba and the Fatamids.

IMO the second most pervasive rewriting beyond politics is fringe religions. Wikipedia discussions are full of ensuing arguments where some crazy Mormon or Jehovah apologist comes on and tries to include their own brand of history. This is beyond simple realigning of history, but is direct self writing of history in order to fill a "gap" in scientific history.

 

[mitsho]

What's real history?

 

[carmen510]

Perceived History: Subjective/distorted view of history. For example, let's say the Nazis won World War Two and then said Hitler was a great humanitarian and savior. That would be Perceived History.

Real History: Objective view of history, basically what happened. In reality, Hitler was a mass murderer.

 

[Dachs]

9/11 truthers unite!

Perceived history: the armies that fought against the Revolutionary and Napoleonic French armies were outmoded, stultified professional forces that had hardly changed in years and were backwards compared to the innovative French army of 'the organizer of victory' Carnot.

Real history: by the time Austerlitz rolled around, the other European states, by and large, had adopted the combined-arms corps and more modern weaponry. Napoleon didn't have as gigantic and predetermined advantage as he is usually credited with.

true, like how some still think julius was a good leader?

Which Julius?

Real History: Objective view of history, basically what happened. In reality, Hitler was a mass murderer.

Your sources are Zionist lies.

 

[choxorn]

Percieved History: America declared Independence on July 4, 1776.

Real History: The Declaration was signed on July 2, and declared on July 8.

 

[Onionsoilder]

Percieved History: America declared Independence on July 4, 1776.

Real History: The Declaration was signed on July 2, and declared on July 8.

Nope. Congress voted to declare independence on July 2nd, the declaration was signed on August 2nd.

Good point about the declaration not being signed on the 4th though.

 

[mitsho]

Perceived History: Subjective/distorted view of history. For example, let's say the Nazis won World War Two and then said Hitler was a great humanitarian and savior. That would be Perceived History.

Real History: Objective view of history, basically what happened. In reality, Hitler was a mass murderer.

What? One is just alternative history, "What-if"

But all you enumerate is just a story of history. just one viewpoint..

I just wanted to state that no real history exists, or how do you know what really happened? in every detail? how? Especially the why is undefinable, and the why is what actually most people in here try to look at.

Now what this thread more seems to look at is "lieu de mémoires" (remembrance spaces (?)). Symbols, events or better: terms to which there is connected a special detailed "story of the history", example Jeanne dArc or just above: the Declaration of independence on july 4th

gm

 

[West 36]

People think the Spanish Inquisition was primarily a theocratic instrument of purely religious terror when it was much more secular than that, and functioned primarily a tool of the monarchs, a secret police to be used against nonconformists. If anything it could be considered the least religious of the various Catholic inquisitions, since final authority rested with the Crown, not the Pope.

Coming in to this thread I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition.



Lincoln loved blacks.
The Lusitania was purely a passenger ship.
Hitler was a genius, and could easily have conquered the world.
Manifest Destiny was justified.
Only Eurasia contained truly organized civilizations prior to colonization, which was also awesome.

 

[Cutlass]

Roosevelt's insistence on balanced budgets? What are you talking about? He may have kept a second set of books to make the budget look balanced, but he did not insist the budget actually be balanced. Plus, he did quite a lot that "smacked of socialism."

He tried as hard as he could. It just wasn't really possible.

 

[choxorn]

Coming in to this thread I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition.

No, the primary goal of the Spanish Inquisition is to suddenly burst through a door every time someone says "I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition."

Well, like I said:

 

[Dachs]

What? One is just alternative history, "What-if"

Not alternative history, but alternate history, is the correct term.

Also no, that wasn't alternate history. He's saying that this, for example, would be fake history.

But all you enumerate is just a story of history. just one viewpoint..

I just wanted to state that no real history exists, or how do you know what really happened? in every detail? how? Especially the why is undefinable, and the why is what actually most people in here try to look at.

You're right that you can never get the whole picture, but that doesn't mean that we don't have more than just a general outline of what happens.

Now what this thread more seems to look at is "lieu de mémoires" (remembrance spaces (?)). Symbols, events or better: terms to which there is connected a special detailed "story of the history", example Jeanne dArc or just above: the Declaration of independence on july 4th

gm

This thread is to show the difference between what people - here, one assumes, is meant the average plebeian who can't tell the difference between Demetrius the City-Breaker and Demetrius the Invincible - commonly perceive to be true and what actually did occur.

 

[Evie]

Perceived History: what the public at large, and people who generally have not studied the topic in depth, believe really happened.

Real History: What modern historians, having reviewed and tackled all the sources they could find, believe really happened.

 

[Ninja Dude]

Coming in to this thread I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition.



Lincoln loved blacks.
The Lusitania was purely a passenger ship.
Hitler was a genius, and could easily have conquered the world.
Manifest Destiny was justified.
Only Eurasia contained truly organized civilizations prior to colonization, which was also awesome.

This is something that really bugs me. My US History teacher has taken this to the absolute extreme. We began the year learning about the Renassiance. He said that "around this time, countries began forming". now, I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure there were countries before then.

Also, the rumor that Ponce de Leon actually searched for a Fountain of Youth is stupid.

 

[Communisto]

America did not win the war of 1812

 

[Agent327]

I think we glorify the New Deal too much and ignore its problematic aftermath effects that are felt even today, like the Ministry of Agriculture destroying crops in order to keep prices up for farmers. (Yeah, destroying crops during the Great Depression supposedly keeps people in a better financial situation)

Just a matter of demand and supply. Basic economics. (That it didn't work then and does today is another matter.)

On the inquisition, its kill count is something like 3000-5000 people, from 1480 to 1830 (ie, 300-ish (because of the Napoleon years) years), which averages out to around 10-17 executions a year). Given estimates of about 150000 trials before the inquisition over that same era, that's also hardly a case of "burn them all and let god sort".

And, given the body count of the Witch Hunts - generally higher than the Inquisition, over a shorter time periods...it puts things in perspective a little bit. What put things a lot more in perspective is the realization that the Spanish Inquisition was one of the most fervent *opponents* of the Witch Hunts, and all but shut them out of Spain.

Yeah, the Inquisition was bad. But in the broader picture of the religious horror of early modern Europe, it looks a lot less like the supreme evil it's been made out to be, and a lot more like one of the not-so-bad byproducts of a society that still had a lot to learn about what we today consider basic morality.

The Council of Troubles, a special court entaminated by the Duke of Alva following the iconoclastic troubles of 1566-67 in the Spanish Netherlands, convicted some 1,073 people to death and exiled circa 11,130 between 1567-76.

Just to put the Inquisition into perspective. (And yes, the Inquisition wasn't a specific Catholic institution, but rather a royal one.)

 

[choxorn]

America did not win the war of 1812

Neither side really won.

 

[Sharwood]

Neither side really won.

Yeah, but the Canucks and Poms didn't get their capital city burnt down in an aggressive war they started. Epic Fail!

I've gotten into so many arguments with Americans about this. "We've won every war we've ever fought!" "No, no you haven't dumbarse, you were stalemated in the first war you ever fought. Not to mention those whole Korea and Vietnam things."