Rebalance of 2/3 of all civs in April!

[goatdeer]

Also bear in mind the average player vs. skilled players (especially on this forum). If you know the game well, you will probably play Babylon quite efficiently and you will probably find him OP.

However, if you have only put so much time into the game and you have just mastered to win a science victory on a higher level, Babylon will be your next fun challenge. Or perhaps optimizing your gameplay is not your style. Then Babylon works out just fine.

Civfanatics are not a true representation of who plays the game, or maybe even who are the fans. (And it's still a commercial business, so the bulk of money is to find in the second group, not in the first).

 

[Linklite]

Bear in mind that how a civ plays for a human and how it plays for an AI can be quite different. Take Babylon, for instance. In a player's hand it is awesome, because the player knows not to research a topic that has an easy-to-get eureka. For instance - why bother researching masonry, when all you have to do is build a quarry? But the AI doesn't know this. In games I have played where Babylon is an AI civ, it hasn't done very well.

So there is a danger in "rebalancing". If you were to say "Babylon is too OP, it needs nerfing", that might hamstring player-Babylon a bit but it might wreck AI-Babylon.

Depends on how its done. For example, doing a 75% Eureka, 30% science malus would tone Player-Babylon down a bit while simultaneously making the AI-Babylon substantially better.

 

[Leucarum]

I think Fraxis backed themselves into a corner slightly with Babylon. Their ability is quite tough to tweak without removing what makes it unique. Even requiring you to have all prerequisite techs would make their gameplay feel very different than it does now.

I'm very much not a fan of Babylon's implementation. I find them very gimmicky (and as a personal gripe they screw up MP team games no end, which have been the main way I've played during the pandemic)... But I also think they will be very tough for firaxis to rebalance without making them play pretty differently

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Depends on how its done. For example, doing a 75% Eureka, 30% science malus would tone Player-Babylon down a bit while simultaneously making the AI-Babylon substantially better.

Except that anything that remove the "Eureka unlock the tech", even with 75% or 90% or 99% eurekas would just make Babylon a buffed China and will take away what make them truly unique.

Sure, they're gimmicky; sure, they might be OP in the right hands; but it would be like saying "Maoris are too gimmicky, I would make them start on land with already the tech to travel on water unlocked". You'll take away what makes the civ unique and (for some people like me) fun to play.

If you don't like them, then exclude them from your games, but don't spoil the fun of people who like it. If you don't like it, don't disgust others.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Lol might give English Eleanor a more supple reason for existing mechanic-wise. With GS changes for England her ability really doesn't help...at all. It's so niche at best...but give her a UU that jives better with it and it might help

Honestly I think the new Monopolies and Corporations mode kind of helped her too. You want to be building RND with England and products are considered a great work, so if you found a corporation you can use products in your RND to flip cities.

But I agree that the Sea Dog can be changed. It's ability to capture enemy ships isn't the most useful because I think the chances increase the more combat strength you have to the unit you defeat. And the base strength of them, and the privateer in general, is the weakest out of all the other Renaissance era ships already. Caravels, Frigates, and their replacements, are generally stronger.

Except that anything that remove the "Eureka unlock the tech", even with 75% or 90% or 99% eurekas would just make Babylon a buffed China and will take away what make them truly unique.

This is honestly the best part of Babylon's design in my opinion. Sure it's gimmicky but I have no problem with it.

 

[Leucarum]

I think the only change which would work to balance Babylon without totally changing how they play is to require you unlock all prerequisites before getting techs. That would prevent some of their more egregious tech jumps while still keeping most of the gimmick intact. It would also take some of the edge off the newbie issue of unlocking techs before you are ready for them...

That said, I completely see the viewpoint of people who think it would make Babylon not special any more. It's difficult to reconcile that and the players who want better balance... At the same time I don't think saying 'play with mods' or 'exclude babylon' is an acceptable answer to those players either.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think the only change which would work to balance Babylon without totally changing how they play is to require you unlock all prerequisites before getting techs. That would prevent some of their more egregious tech jumps while still keeping most of the gimmick intact. It would also take some of the edge off the newbie issue of unlocking techs before you are ready for them...

I think that would be a fair compromise.
I still think you should be able to "unlock" the technologies, but not be able to build any of the associated units, infrastructure etc. until the other prerequisites are met. Though we may be saying the same thing, just differently.

 

[Lokreah]

I think the "unlock the full tech" is kind of silly for Babylon. I'd be happy with 80 percent (most techs would unlock at around 2-3 turns.

 

[Leucarum]

I think that would be a fair compromise.
I still think you should be able to "unlock" the technologies, but not be able to build any of the associated units, infrastructure etc. until the other prerequisites are met. Though we may be saying the same thing, just differently.

Yeah, I think we are saying the same thing. The techs should still give a full discount on cost but you only get them once you've also unlocked every prerequisite. I have no idea how much of a pain this would be to program though. 99.9% eurekas may be almost functionally identical and might end up being the only way to implement it quickly?

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

I think the only change which would work to balance Babylon without totally changing how they play is to require you unlock all prerequisites before getting techs. That would prevent some of their more egregious tech jumps while still keeping most of the gimmick intact. It would also take some of the edge off the newbie issue of unlocking techs before you are ready for them...

This is one possible change that could work for Babylon with a slight change, which I would support. Other possible changes (one of these, not together of course) I would suggest are:

• Give Babylon for ancient and classical era its current ability (& science malus) and for future eras some other ability, like how the great library works for ancient and classical techs and has an additional ability.
• Babylon receive a declining boost from Eurekas (& science malus) accordingto the era the tech belongs to. 100% boost & 50% malus in science to ancient techs, 95% boost and 45% science malus to classical techs, 90% boost and 40% science malus to medieval techs, etc

 

[EarendilTheMariner]

I disagree with giving Babylon a lower tech boost, as that would just make them a buffed China, as was said earlier. I really enjoy Babylon, despite the fact that they are a gimmick, because they are still fun. It's always a joy to destroy a warrior with your artillery, and I don't want that changed. My biggest problem isn't Babylon's ability, but rather Hammurabi's. It's not very thematic with what he was known for and while a good bonus, doesn't fit well with him and the rest of the civ.

I'd like to see it changed to:
Start with code of laws unlocked.
Changing policy cards or governments costs 50% less gold.
Gain +100% diplomatic favour from government type than you normally would.

This gives Hammurabi more of a focus on Governments and Policies, which is probably what he is most well known for, and it's also something that no other civ in the game does at the moment.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I disagree with giving Babylon a lower tech boost, as that would just make them a buffed China, as was said earlier. I really enjoy Babylon, despite the fact that they are a gimmick, because they are still fun. It's always a joy to destroy a warrior with your artillery, and I don't want that changed. My biggest problem isn't Babylon's ability, but rather Hammurabi's. It's not very thematic with what he was known for and while a good bonus, doesn't fit well with him and the rest of the civ.

I'd like to see it changed to:
Start with code of laws unlocked.
Changing policy cards or governments costs 50% less gold.
Gain +100% diplomatic favour from government type than you normally would.

This gives Hammurabi more of a focus on Governments and Policies, which is probably what he is most well known for, and it's also something that no other civ in the game does at the moment.

This! Why does Hammurabi have no Bonuses to Governments and Policy Cards when he literally is known for lawmaking??!!

 

[Leucarum]

This! Why does Hammurabi have no Bonuses to Governments and Policy Cards when he literally is known for lawmaking??!!

I've argued before that Babylon would be much more thematic and probably much better balanced if instead of getting free techs from eurekas and having a science malus, they got free civics from eurekas and a culture malus... But that's a change I think a lot of current-Babylon fans would be very annoyed by.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

I'd like to see it changed to:
Start with code of laws unlocked.
Changing policy cards or governments costs 50% less gold.
Gain +100% diplomatic favour from government type than you normally would.

This gives Hammurabi more of a focus on Governments and Policies, which is probably what he is most well known for, and it's also something that no other civ in the game does at the moment.

I think this ability alone is bit weak, but it definitely makes logic to give Babylon a government related ability. It could use something along.

Maybe combine it with the following?

Give Babylon for ancient and classical era its current ability (& science malus) and for future eras some other ability, like how the great library works for ancient and classical techs and has an additional ability.

So it gets it early techs from eurekas and gets to benefit later on from diplomatic favour...

 

[EarendilTheMariner]

I think this ability alone is bit weak, but it definitely makes logic to give Babylon a government related ability. It could use something along.

Maybe combine it with the following?

So it gets it early techs from eurekas and gets to benefit later on from diplomatic favour...

It was meant more as a replacement for Hammurabi's leader ability, rather than the civ bonus. You could add on a bonus culture per policy card slot in the government or something like that to make it stronger.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I disagree with giving Babylon a lower tech boost, as that would just make them a buffed China, as was said earlier. I really enjoy Babylon, despite the fact that they are a gimmick, because they are still fun. It's always a joy to destroy a warrior with your artillery, and I don't want that changed. My biggest problem isn't Babylon's ability, but rather Hammurabi's. It's not very thematic with what he was known for and while a good bonus, doesn't fit well with him and the rest of the civ.

I'd like to see it changed to:
Start with code of laws unlocked.
Changing policy cards or governments costs 50% less gold.
Gain +100% diplomatic favour from government type than you normally would.

This gives Hammurabi more of a focus on Governments and Policies, which is probably what he is most well known for, and it's also something that no other civ in the game does at the moment.

I'd still like to keep the free building every time you build a district for the first time, considering he was the first one who built up Babylon into a major city, but I agree with starting with codes of law unlocked and government/policy cards changes are cheaper to purchase.

Would be interesting if he could do that with faith too considering he was considered a god-king.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Bear in mind that how a civ plays for a human and how it plays for an AI can be quite different. Take Babylon, for instance. In a player's hand it is awesome, because the player knows not to research a topic that has an easy-to-get eureka. For instance - why bother researching masonry, when all you have to do is build a quarry? But the AI doesn't know this. In games I have played where Babylon is an AI civ, it hasn't done very well.

So there is a danger in "rebalancing". If you were to say "Babylon is too OP, it needs nerfing", that might hamstring player-Babylon a bit but it might wreck AI-Babylon.

We're kinda past that point, lol. Considering we've released an entire season of content that the AI doesn't know how to play, limiting our options to AI competence would mean we don't have anything.

lso bear in mind the average player vs. skilled players (especially on this forum). If you know the game well, you will probably play Babylon quite efficiently and you will probably find him OP.

However, if you have only put so much time into the game and you have just mastered to win a science victory on a higher level, Babylon will be your next fun challenge. Or perhaps optimizing your gameplay is not your style. Then Babylon works out just fine.

Civfanatics are not a true representation of who plays the game, or maybe even who are the fans. (And it's still a commercial business, so the bulk of money is to find in the second group, not in the first).

I don't think we should really consider the average player into the equation, since they don't know enough about the game to be affected by game balance anyways and their failings and successes tend to be of their own doing which often comes down to just understanding victory conditions and such. Nor are they capable of changing the game to match balance either so that's just a lot of wasted effort if you're making changes that people can't comprehend, much less appreciate.

But that's my philosophy for gaming in general. At low levels, you can just improve to overcome game issues. But there are certain problems where no skill will overcome or the effort is just too tremendous for people just playing it as a hobby, and that's when you have to change the game.

If anything, balance means the least for them and they'll also be least affected by most balance changes.

Besides. Babylon comes down to building 3 archers and building 3 mines. There's obviously more to it, but that's effectively my beginner's guide to them.

A good example is Diplomacy. There are many problems with it, but most of it is actually pretty reasonable. A lot of people complain that they get denounced because some AI declared war on them and they retaliated by wiping them out. Regardless of treating this like a game board or real life, there are strong reasons why other civs would not find their actions welcome. And there's a myraid of ways to mitigate this, so I think there's not a game balance issue here, but rather... to put it nicely-- player stubborness.

 

[Ticio]

Honestly I think the new Monopolies and Corporations mode kind of helped her too. You want to be building RND with England and products are considered a great work, so if you found a corporation you can use products in your RND to flip cities.

But I agree that the Sea Dog can be changed. It's ability to capture enemy ships isn't the most useful because I think the chances increase the more combat strength you have to the unit you defeat. And the base strength of them, and the privateer in general, is the weakest out of all the other Renaissance era ships already. Caravels, Frigates, and their replacements, are generally stronger.


This is honestly the best part of Babylon's design in my opinion. Sure it's gimmicky but I have no problem with it.

Maybe the ability to raid neutral Civ merchants could be interesting. You can use them to raid naval traders in exchange for a high amount of grievances.
Maybe a little OP, but having Portugal now it could fit very well.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Maybe the ability to raid neutral Civ merchants could be interesting. You can use them to raid naval traders in exchange for a high amount of grievances.
Maybe a little OP, but having Portugal now it could fit very well.

Considering many of the Sea Dogs became actual "pirates" towards other nations in the Caribbean, mainly toward the Spanish and the Dutch, I'd like to see them do something similar to actual piracy.

Maybe they could reduce loyalty in a city where the trader originated or a city that they coastal raided.
Or you know just have the ability to raid, and reduce loyalty, without having to declare war which would fit with Eleanor.

 

[Linklite]

Except that anything that remove the "Eureka unlock the tech", even with 75% or 90% or 99% eurekas would just make Babylon a buffed China and will take away what make them truly unique.

Sure, they're gimmicky; sure, they might be OP in the right hands; but it would be like saying "Maoris are too gimmicky, I would make them start on land with already the tech to travel on water unlocked". You'll take away what makes the civ unique and (for some people like me) fun to play.

If you don't like them, then exclude them from your games, but don't spoil the fun of people who like it. If you don't like it, don't disgust others.

I'm not advocating it, I'm just pointing out that it is doable.