Religion Expansion

[Leoreth]

Long term goal is getting rid of the religion column.

But for I think it will be replaced by Religious Tolerance. Maybe Scholasticism will get the axe in the process as well, in which case your idea might be a good replacement.

 

[calad]

What I see problem on religion column is that it is heavily euro-centric and has lot of nonsense on it.

For example Fanaticism makes no sense, I cant point out any civs that have stayed centuries or decades as fanatical civ. Also unit contruction bonus on it makes no sense as well because it is not related at all.

Scholasticism is a nice option for Organized religion but really to me it is nonsense as well. I understand Organized religion represents civ that runs around one religion be it Caliphate, Mandate of Heaven or Papacy but Scholasticism is not a good counterpart.

Again Divine cult would be for civs that does not fit very well into previous mentioned categories.

What I also suggest here is that there would be two kind of secular religious civics: already existing Secularism and Atheism. Difference would be that Atheism is a militant version of Secularism and it has a goal of purging religions complitely instead of accepting them all. Atheism could have modern purge religions option that gives you money when you destroy temples, monasteries or cathedrals and so on. This would be better than Fanaticism because atleast Atheistic civs existed (Communist).

 

[VGL]

Fanaticism is supposed to represent extreme religious intolerance and nations that have many religious laws. So it kinda makes sense to have it. Also i agree with atheism civic religion. Or even add atheism as religion.

 

[calad]

Fanaticism is supposed to represent extreme religious intolerance and nations that have many religious laws. So it kinda makes sense to have it. Also i agree with atheism civic religion. Or even add atheism as religion.

Well can you name any civ that have been extreme intolerance during centuries? I agree it is a temporary policy like tolerance but it is like comparing climate and weather. Qing dynasty comes to my mind but I dont think that it is a good example.

But honestly it would be a good option to complitely remove religion bar and replace it with ideology that drives society: (from early to late) despotism, religion, freedom, order and authority. Sorry for going into civ5

 

[VGL]

I disagree. Cause then you would have despotism in the 21st centaury

Also, countries like Saudi Arabia and many countries that have sharia law can come to mind.

 

[calad]

New civis are not neccesarry better than old ones, thats why there are still civs that uses outdated civics.

And about todays fundamental Islam. I think it is rather bad example and we can all agree that if 2015 scenario would exist Arab civ would be collapsed.

 

[ales_]

No, it would represent at least Saudi Arabia.

 

[trexeric]

State Enforced Atheism could just as easily be represented through a combination of, say, Theocracy and Secularism (or alternatively, Organized Religion without a chosen religion). And have special perks for the combination. In my opinion it hardly warrants a whole new civic.

 

[Publicola]

One suggestion I would have in the midst of all this "major religion" vs. "minor religion" vs. "ethnic religion" stuff, is that perhaps we could allow each civ to determine whether their state religion has a national or ecumenical flavor. Buddhism in its basic form is more or less universal -- but if Japan adopts it as a state religion, it could choose whether to adopt it in its base form or in its modified Shinto form. Christianity would be mostly universal in its base form, but national variants might include Anglicanism, other forms of Protestantism, as well as particular Eastern Orthodox churches.

If this is adopted there should be specific costs and benefits to picking one or the other. Obviously having a trans-national religious identity would help with diplomatic relations with those who share it, while have a strictly national religion would increase gold (think of how tithes collected during the English Reformation no longer went to Rome...)

This would also enable "Pantheon" to be an actual religion (rather than a civic category) in which each nation would have to pick out a strictly national variant of it. Hence, instead of having a generic category that nations can adopt, there would be a general religion that spreads (particularly in the early game) but when adopted as a state religion, becomes specifically national in character.

What do you think?

 

[Leoreth]

I'd love to include the ability to "customize" your religion, but I think this is better left outside of the current discussion as a future feature.

 

[calad]

I want to sacrifice people for Jesus.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I want to sacrifice people for Jesus.

Thank you, calad, you made my morning.

 

[Leoreth]

That's what this mod was truly made for

 

[calad]

Thank you, calad, you made my morning.

Literally open your heart for Jesus.

 

[Panopticon]

I've revised my earlier beliefs about Roman polytheism. I've concluded that it could have survived, but Christianity was really well propagated. So, perhaps this means it should be easier for everyone to persecute earlier.

 

[phoenix_sprite]

Fanaticism is supposed to represent extreme religious intolerance and nations that have many religious laws. So it kinda makes sense to have it. Also i agree with atheism civic religion. Or even add atheism as religion.

Atheism as a religion is a paradox.

I'd love to include the ability to "customize" your religion, but I think this is better left outside of the current discussion as a future feature.

Do you see yourself being able to do a Civ5 style religious system in this mod?

 

[Leoreth]

Do you see yourself being able to do a Civ5 style religious system in this mod?

In a way, yes.

 

[Publicola]

I'd love to include the ability to "customize" your religion, but I think this is better left outside of the current discussion as a future feature.

I can see why a fully customizable religious system would be too far-sweeping for this discussion, but what about an interim measure, a religious system that offers choices but isn't fully custom-built? The idea of allowing nationalized variants of major religion could be carefully limited to only a single variant -- when Protestantism is founded, civs that adopt it are offered the choice of founding a national version (like Anglicanism), but that option is no longer available after the first civ to do so. There would be costs and benefits, so it wouldn't be automatic or an obvious choice, but it would allow a diversity of religious choices as reflected in the real world.

A few examples of such national variants:
Hinduism --> Ayyavazhi or Bahkti (Tamil sects/schools)
Buddhism --> Shinto (Japanese syncretism)
Islam --> Shi'a (predominates in Persia/Iran)
Catholicism --> Uniate Abyssinian Church (Eastern Rite in Ethiopia)
Orthodoxy --> Russian Orthodox Church
Protestant --> Anglican Church

And of course, if we decide to make Pantheon a religion rather than a religious civic, there are all kinds of nationalized variants.

I suppose the bigger question is: how intensive are religions in terms of the Civ IV engine? Are there limited number of slots, as with civilizations, or is adding a new religion more comparable to adding a new building or unit that can be produced? How much lag does each new religion generate?

 

[Leoreth]

I don't think adding a new religion increases game lag in any way.

The number of religions is mostly limited by space in the font map, once you run out of space to put the icons there's not much you can do. Also, adding another religion is more time consuming, especially considering that I want to customize their spread even more, geographically.

It also raises questions of how these religions will interact with regard to unhappiness and diplomacy. It would basically require to change the entire paradigm of a what a religion is in the game.

 

[ales_]

What is a font map?