Replay #8 4 µ m8s <3

fun read.

Archer-medic? I like chariot-medics (since quechua-medic is not available to you)
Then i take Morale for a 3 movement unit. It's good for grabbing those workers that u let survive and u avoid the 'trap'. After a city falls, they can pick off some workers that are suddenly in range.

After Morale, I often take +30% withdrawl! Yes, I like to take my free upgrade to mace or knight etc. and attack if necessary. I only do that once I have a 2nd medic.
 
Hmm, that chapter certainly played out differently than I expected. I expected you to whip/chop cheap Cho-Ko-Nus and Catapults non-stop and keep attacking multiple AIs with them all through the Medieval era, making up for unfavourable odds (against Longbows and later Knights) with sheer numbers. I thought that Currency + Courthouses + super-shrine is usually enough to keep up a good enough techrate even with a larger empire, so I'd be interested in getting the reasoning behind only going for a limited Cho-Ko-Nu war and building commerce/research buildings instead of more early units. It'll also be interesting with which unit you will go for full-out war...
 
Bravo, Seraiel! Excellent chapter. A gold mine of playing tips!

Sun Tzu Wu

Thx <3

Make sure to let me know, should I publish any tips, you weren't aware of alaready :) . I find it always nice to know where I'm standing with my knowledge :) .

fun read.

Archer-medic? I like chariot-medics (since quechua-medic is not available to you)
Then i take Morale for a 3 movement unit. It's good for grabbing those workers that u let survive and u avoid the 'trap'. After a city falls, they can pick off some workers that are suddenly in range.

After Morale, I often take +30% withdrawl! Yes, I like to take my free upgrade to mace or knight etc. and attack if necessary. I only do that once I have a 2nd medic.

Chosing a Cho-Ko-Nu as a medic had the advantage, that I needed 1 promotion less, like with a Quechua. And my usual promotion order is Championship, Tactics and then Morale, so like you, my medics are full fighters, though I use them almost exclusively in 98% fights, because of their great value. Through taking Championship, I basically get the upgrades you talk of, for the same price that you pay. I think i get them slightly later, but therefor then have Championship on top, because I need 3 promotions, you only 2, but my 3rd promotion enhances the xp-gain, therefor makes up for its cost.

I thought about a Chariot medic in this round, but I'm having problems with those myself because a Medic imho has to be strong, or he has to be guarded all the time, because of the AI-mechanic attacking GG-units no matter the chances. Main reason anyhow was, that with choosing a Cho-Ko-Nu, I needed 1 promotion less, and what you observed very well:

Yes, I've seriously taken to few Workers up til now, so I understand your arguments for a faster unit. This is gonna influence the round, as I'm not able to chop all those trees you see in near future.

Hmm, that chapter certainly played out differently than I expected. I expected you to whip/chop cheap Cho-Ko-Nus and Catapults non-stop and keep attacking multiple AIs with them all through the Medieval era, making up for unfavourable odds (against Longbows and later Knights) with sheer numbers. I thought that Currency + Courthouses + super-shrine is usually enough to keep up a good enough techrate even with a larger empire, so I'd be interested in getting the reasoning behind only going for a limited Cho-Ko-Nu war and building commerce/research buildings instead of more early units. It'll also be interesting with which unit you will go for full-out war...

Funny, first time I don't post a clearview, and instantly someone asks something like that.

I'm gonna give a clearview today, basically, you're suspecting something that's not going to happen, I will go to war with Cho-Ko-Nu's for quite some time, but I think you're underestimating / misjudging the situation I'm in that game currently. Basically, my research is non-existent, Pacal has at least twice as much as I'm currently conducting, so I have to ensure that I'm not gonna be too backwards when I meet him, then also the decisions for those buildings have to be seen as single decisions. with so little research, I knew that bulbing / GPs were my only possibility to stay in the tech-race over a medium amount of time, and what you're also thinking wrong about, is my ability to generate an army in a short amount of time.
Atm. there is no next target yet, it is gonna be Lincoln because he has nice cities, but to go against him, I need to ensure that I'm also in a good situation afterwards, beause after Lincoln, comes De Gaulle (all Cho-Ko-Nu-wars still) . With the small number of cities that I had, going from 4 cities to 15 cities was already a huge jump, the GL is there to ensure at least some tech-rating to me, London has to be built up completely (no Cottages, no Palace, no HE, basically nothing... ) , and the other cities are either small, or at their atmost limit (look at Nottingham, that's the "Super-Shrine-city" and it's size 4) . The Library in Ganghzou is a choice that is very questionable at least, because I found in hindsight, that 2 Silks were still to little reasoning for. I went all-in for Lizzy, and all I'm currently doing, is building up, so that I'm able to compare at all with the other AIs. Conquest is going to become so fast and I'm just laying the steps that are necessary towards it. My experience from previous rounds told me that I must do this, and that there's no chance to win before or without Rifling, because then, I'd get into the situation where I'd have to fight a powerful teching empire like Pacal's without being technologically advanced or at least able to compare. Your questions will go away from themselves, once you realize that that map is Huge and once you'll see the Forces which I'm going to encounter and what is about to happen to my tech-rate. A Super-Shrine is amazing, but as it is... See the clearview for that.
 
Greetings,

I&#8217;d just likely to quickly say that discovering your HoF replays has been a life milestone for me as far as entertaining myself goes. I&#8217;m 37 and I don&#8217;t recall being so excited to get into something for quite some time. Over the weekend I was inspired to start some Deity games and discovered the BUFFY mod through your guidance here.

I must say as I got into it I first started to believe that you are all bonkers for taking on that difficulty level but soon discovered using your tips that it was not only possible but the incredibly exhilarating as well.

I&#8217;m still getting my rear kicked but I feel like I am getting better ever time I charge up a game and feel a new warm fuzzy building, every time I do any action in a Deity game. I have had the odd game where I really felt I was holding my own thanks to all your tips.

I thought I would just say thanks for honestly changing my life for the better. I find your replays to be a 10 out of 10 read. You produce enough information to be useful and entertaining but not too much to boring. Your use of graphics is state of the art.

Please keep it up and hopefully I might be able to relive with you some crazy moments myself.
 
Greetings,

I’d just likely to quickly say that discovering your HoF replays has been a life milestone for me as far as entertaining myself goes. I’m 37 and I don’t recall being so excited to get into something for quite some time. Over the weekend I was inspired to start some Deity games and discovered the BUFFY mod through your guidance here.

I must say as I got into it I first started to believe that you are all bonkers for taking on that difficulty level but soon discovered using your tips that it was not only possible but the incredibly exhilarating as well.

I’m still getting my rear kicked but I feel like I am getting better ever time I charge up a game and feel a new warm fuzzy building, every time I do any action in a Deity game. I have had the odd game where I really felt I was holding my own thanks to all your tips.

I thought I would just say thanks for honestly changing my life for the better. I find your replays to be a 10 out of 10 read. You produce enough information to be useful and entertaining but not too much to boring. Your use of graphics is state of the art.

Please keep it up and hopefully I might be able to relive with you some crazy moments myself.

I had to answer to that post immediately, so before posting the cleaview, because I was really astonished, when I noticed your choice of words.

"Life milestone" :eek: . I'm either hoping, that you're exagurating here, or I hope that you're not ;) . Others told me already that my writeups were "inspiring" or that "people love them because of all the work in them" , but changing life, that's amazing :) . The choice of the word "exhilarating" made me smile too :) . I'm probably thinking of something different than you do, but "exhilareting" sounds good, games should exhilarete :) .

Regarding me playing Deity:

Many people you've met in the thread here play on that difficulty. It's really hard in the beginning, but with the gain of knowledge about game mechanics or what is regarded as "good decisions" , it's perfectly possible to conquer that level :) . Took me some months I think, and I'm much better than I was when first beating it, but I really understand you on your feeling, because beating the hardest difficulty in Civ, a game that's regarded to be very difficult by very many players, really is something giving joy. :)

You telling me, that I keep a good proportion with information and entertainment is something I'm thankful for, because it's something that I try, often fail (usually in the direction of too much information) , and claim to keep people interested aswell as wanting them to have fun, as I know, that good things come from both, I basically find it important that people think and feel good, and that they feel good while thinking.
The last maybe tells you something about me.

So thx very much again, 10/10 goes to the heart, and as long as there's a way out of the insanity, there's nothing wrong about it. I'm actually amazed, that people love crazy so much, because of having been stuck in crazyness for a couple of years, you telling me that people don't react negative to it or that they even react positive, gives confidence, and confidence is something good imo.

Seraiel

------------------

Next part of the writeup going going online soon.
 
I've decided to not write a clean clearview of the status at which the round is currently in like I did in Replay #3-7, but I've decided that I want to continue the story and that I'll report on the questions that georgjorge had btw., because making a full-stop now is imho not the right time with the war being in progress, and I also found that there were very little reactions to me giving clearviews in the past, which I interpret in the way that people find it very difficult to comment on the current status of something and really formulate statements judging things, yes, even the pro's. I'm doing such things, but that seems to be something only few people do, I hope you don't mind though.

-------------------



Screenshot taken from 200 BC, so slightly past of where we left already.



Showing that I joined the war against de Gaulle. He cannot reach me, so I'm exchanging diplopoints with 3 Civs having my religion, against slight diplohits from 3 Civs I could not become friends with anyhow.



Showing that I made a very good trade for CoL. I'm also keeping an eye on that the Civs which would be willing to trade with Lizzy (Asoka, Frederick, Lincoln, Roosevelt and Washington) don't lack any techs Lizzy has, while having a tech theirselves that she doesn't.



Maybe superflous, but I found these trades worth reporting, because they show that I'm trading my Horses to Asoka, so by resigning from the possibility to build Horse-units, I solve most of my Happiness problems, and the Marble I get from Brennus basically is free atm., because there's nothing I (or he) could build with it!

It's important to look closer at the overall and diplomatic situation again:



Predicting what will happen, is an ability owned by skilled and experienced players. Knowing where one stands atm. comes with not going away from somewhere, and in this case this means, that I'm in an ok situation atm. with having 10 cities, but I have to pay some serious attention to my friends. I don't worry about Asoka, Pacal and Peter, because those 3 are already out for me, with having only 8-10 cities, but the Americans and the German are in very strong positions. Going against Lincoln could get a lot more difficult than we'd like it, because 15 cities means he has the power to produce from all of those, and Lizzy having 7 and us having 10 means that we'll have 17 cities at most after the war, and 17 vs 15 can be quite a challenge with the AIs getting Deity bonuses!

I hope that this answered some of the questions georgjorge had already.

Now troglodyt asked me to report about the diplomacy, and though he neither answered to my post, nor my PM, I'll post this screen, because I think that it's interesting for all:

What I did for diplomacy, were 2 things:
  1. I traded techs to all Civs that I wasn't 100% sure of, that they'd be the next target, or the target after the next. This means, I traded techs to all Civs but Lizzy and Lincoln. Trading techs for diplo-bonuses makes it harder for me to stay in the tech-race because it often means that I'm giving away techs for free, but it gets me the desired +4 points through "fair trade relations" .
  2. Once I could see with whom I could make friends (so seeing with whom I shared Religion and who wasn't my direct neighbour -> possible target) , I began sharing wars, at least when I was sure, that they were no danger for me!
And the result of behaving like such, in 50 BC, is this:



-----------------------

What's missing, is what happened in between:



The heroes conquered the southern front. Under the command of Tachywaxon, they were able to steal a lot of Workers, and bcool got inspired by him, and conquered a city (Coventry) all on his own. Zx Zero Zx noticed that the others were doing a great job and noticed that he didn't have to fight at all, what he hasn't noticed though, is that like this, he doesn't get any XP and cannot become a legend like Tachywaxon and bcool...
Kossin is a very good player, so he specced Drill, giving him larger XP from single fights and reducing the time he needs to heal because Drill makes units take less damage (not only from Collateral, but through the Firststrikes there are chances, that a Drill unit will even survive a fight unharmed sometimes) , and I had level up and decided for Morale, because I heard of heroes fighting at the North front, that desperately needed a healer:



As you see, some of those Cho-Ko-Nu's have names already, and some don't! This is, because I renamed the Cho-Ku's in the order after which I met them in that round! Sun Tzu Wu, Kaitzilla and WastinTime were the heroes which conquered Liverpool, a city which can be seen here:



I hope that shift didn't fck you, and that you can laugh about it.

A Warriorfarm? Seriously? Yes! A really good empire has one of those, and I told you, that I'd play perfect in this round and that I'd use everything that's available to me, so yes! Warriors cost only half as many :hammers: as Archers do, and there wouldn't even be the possbility to train Archers anymore, because I've aquired Feudalism in the meantime! Using Cho-Ko-Nu's as City-Garrisons, would mean spending 90 :hammers: for some Happiness instead of spending 22 (!) on exactly the same, and Cho-Ko-Nu's are really only needed in Border-cities! I have totally safe fronts in the south and in the west, so there's no reason not to greatly save some Hammers by guarding those cities with the best unit of the game!

And then building the Palace, the HE and the NE in London? Yes! If you remember screenshots from before, that city has a fcking amount of 4 times Food, and it's even strong Food! The current Happiness-limit of that city is size 5, and it will be size 10 or 11 once I've conquered Lizzy, but that city has such amazing amounts of Food, that I see absolutely no way to keep it from running into Unhappiness, but build the Globe in it! To me, the opportunity costs of this also seem very small, because it means that I have to build some theaters in cities that have (or will have) border-pressure anyhow, and luckily enough, London has just the amount of Forrests to first build the Palace and run as a Bureaucratic Capital, and build the HE + the GT still in very little time!

Buro? Are we there already? Yes! With having the good friends that you've seen on the screen I posted above, getting Civil Service by trade was absolutely no problem! I of course had to give up my monopoly on Machinery for this, but that's a little price for making 200 BPT (that's twice as much as on the screens you know from 200 BC, so 10 turns earlier) . Have a look at the tech-screen:



I'm basically having large techs as advantages over the AIs, while lacking only very few things, that I don't even need yet! (NN for Philosphy before Liberalism in a war-round, and Construction would have been nice, but is really only needed from the time when AIs have Castles onwards. )

"Wow, so 200 BPT!" Yes. I used the GA from Music to start a GA, and waiting for that was really the hardest thing in the whole round for me! I had 1500 :gold: in the Bank, and always thought "you have the Mids, why not switch to US and rush-buy some fancy things" , but then I did some real calculations, and it turned out that 1500 :gold: , though not being somewhat, wasn't too much either! Single Cho-Ko-Nu costs about 300 :gold: on those settings, so I could have bought exactly 5 of them, great, as if that would really make the difference! I could also have bought the Palace, but that'd have been absolutely stupid, because with being IND, I'm getting +50% on the chops for it, but with buying it, I'd have had to pay +50% in :gold: , so lose lose!

What I did with that money, was Rush-Upgrade some Archers, because what I need, are more Cho-Ko-Nu's with all that stupid stuff that I already have to build, to get into a killing position, so this is the status of the current chinese military:



Here, you really must look at the numbers. 20 Cho-Ko-Nu's available, and that with 10 lost already, means that I built 30, which I find is really decent for that it's not even 1 AD yet!

I also bought a very small number of Workers, because even with the Workers conquered from Lizzy, the biggest gain I could get now (still speaking of troops) would be if I could chop all those Forrests you see here:



This is the freakin most insane amount of Forrests, that I've ever seen! How many are those? 20? 30? 40? Now imagine that every Forrests is almost 1 Cho-Ku, now imagine a Cho-Ku instead of the tile where the Forrest is on, that'd be an army that were even larger than the one I'm already having! Chopping all of that will be way enough to conquer Lincoln, even with him getting / having Longbows, what I must ensure, is that those Forrests get chopped fast, because the faster they go, the earlier I'll have Lincolns cities, and Lincolns cities again will be what will get me the Forces for the next target, + of course what the cities that I'm currently building up will also produce!

Workers were the right investment for that money, because a Worker really can multiply and pay back 10 times by chopping those Forrests, while everything else would have been poor choices at most.

This may again be superflous, but I think some may ask what Civics I plan to run at the end of the GA, and they are of course:



Police-State, Buro, Slavery and Theocracy. I tell this, because I did experiment with running Vassalage a lot, and after all of my experiments with it, I can assure you, Vassalage is not worth it except in rare-exceptions!
Example for one of those rare exceptions would be i. e., that you don't have Burea yet, but Burea is the boost to Commerce (and also slightly to Hammers) , and what really helps in a war round, is getting 5 XP-Troops from Barracks cities or single promoted troops from anywhere, and you get that through running Theo. There aren't really that much buildings to build anyhow, ok, now you'll laugh, but it's seriously only Granaries, Forges, Barracks and Theaters, so with the end of this post, I'll seriously end the enormous build-up-phase until the end of the game! The only positive thing from Vassalage is, that it doesn't require a religion and that's it. The benefit from being able to run OR, is very minor with the small number of buildings, it's worth it in the very beginning when Theo isn't available yet, but with Theo, there's nn to run Vassalage, and Buro is the deal, as it allows you to create unbelievable amounts of research from only 1 city having an Academy!

And this is that city:



Screenshot from 190 AD, a time when the war against Lizzy was over, and it's ment to be a preview on the upcomming update, because we want to know what happened with the heroes in between, but I hope, that you now understand why I pushed so hard to get the Globe in that city, and that is, that this city has 200% bonus on unit-production and +16 Food even with working the Plains-Mine! I really would have liked to whip away that Plains-Hill on that screen because it's no good tile, but there simply wasn't any chance, because this city produced 2 troops in 3 turns and regrew so fast, that it always grw onto the Plains-Hill again!
100 BPT from the Buro-Capital is not that amazing, but I think it's still ok, shows really that I had problems with research in that round so even one reason more to definately run Buro, but what I hope... :

Is that you had a fun-time reading this post, and that you now feel fresh and am motivated to read the next upadte, and that you'll maybe leave a comment on this, because, believe it or not, but writing this post again took me from 4 'o clock in the morning, and it's now almost 10 'o clock in Germany ;) .

So while I'm getting myself some breakfast, you think about if this was good or not, 'til soon,

Seraiel
 
Holy crap, London is amazing!!!! What a food. Mcdonalds would be even envious. I have a question though. When you were whipping the great library I saw that you were running four citizens. That was just for show right? Or is there a trick behind it that I don't know?

The war against Lizzy seemed so freaking easy though. A job well done. How about demo's now? With London in place your food per turn should have skyrocketed.
 
Wow, for me that was the best post so far in an already amazing thread. Thanks a lot, and thanks for putting in a lot of work to specifically answer my question! And I learned about Diplomacy, something I sometimes seem to have problems with (and that's only with six opponents!).

London is quite a crazy city. However, did you also think about having London as GP farm and Beijing as Bureaucracy capital? I remember you cottaging Beijing up quite early, and with the gold in addition, I would have thought that it would at least produce equal commerce (plus for the future, it has more riverside grasslands and doesn't need to build the palace). But the Great Library having to be built before conquering London changes things a lot of course...

Construction not being available sounds problematic, as cultural defenses (+ wall) really get annoyingly high in this era. I guess many of the heroes will die (and be born again without XP) against Lincoln.
 
Construction is already in. He can build catapults as seen in the last screenshot. Seraiel, why did you say that the plains hill is a bad tile? It is in your bureau city so its actually a 6H/1,5 coins tile. Which a forge that is 7H per turn. Why is this bad? You prefer more commerce and more food?
 
PH is a bad tile cause of GT in that city. I love it Sera, and I told you I'm not the only one! Excellent read once again. Could you show us the screens (some simple ones) of neighboring civs territories? Not much info needed there, your diplo explanation is amazing.

*posting in hope to see my name next to the real heroes, even if it'll suicide turn later* :spear:

(unless they're reserved for the best of the best, I'll retreat without shame then) :)
 
Ok, just in very short, before I'll play my own / current round today :) :

Holy crap, London is amazing!!!! What a food. Mcdonalds would be even envious. I have a question though. When you were whipping the great library I saw that you were running four citizens. That was just for show right? Or is there a trick behind it that I don't know?

The war against Lizzy seemed so freaking easy though. A job well done. How about demo's now? With London in place your food per turn should have skyrocketed.

De-selecting the tiles which one wants to whip away, causes normal citizens to appear in the city-screen, and when then whipping, thos citizens get chosen, so by de-selecting the tiles first, one doesn't have to re-assign tiles + Specialists afterwards.

Wow, for me that was the best post so far in an already amazing thread. Thanks a lot, and thanks for putting in a lot of work to specifically answer my question! And I learned about Diplomacy, something I sometimes seem to have problems with (and that's only with six opponents!).

London is quite a crazy city. However, did you also think about having London as GP farm and Beijing as Bureaucracy capital? I remember you cottaging Beijing up quite early, and with the gold in addition, I would have thought that it would at least produce equal commerce (plus for the future, it has more riverside grasslands and doesn't need to build the palace). But the Great Library having to be built before conquering London changes things a lot of course...

Construction not being available sounds problematic, as cultural defenses (+ wall) really get annoyingly high in this era. I guess many of the heroes will die (and be born again without XP) against Lincoln.

TY for that compliment. I somehow "felt" that the 2nd part was really good, and I think I can "replay" that part, so use it as a basis for writing something transfering the same good energy, again. Feedback like this is really important for me, because my own insecurities sometimes lead to me changing too often and not knowing what to keep, so I now know, that my feeling about that part was really true.

Regarding the choice of the GP-Farm:

It's funny, because of course I asked myself the same question you did, and of course I took notes on how I decided for making huge moves like i. e. moving the Palace, building a Commerce-centre from scratch when already having one, a.s.o..

Reasons for choosing Bejing as a GP-Farm in first line, were:
  • The city has crazy amounts of Wonders:



    Showing that Bejing gets 15 :gp: only from buildings, and because needing to add the Specialists from the GL to that, those are 21 :gp: that this city has, that London doesn't! 21 :gp: are i. e. the 7 scientists, which is not even possible, so it'd i. e. be 4 Merchants and 3 Scientists, but for those I'd need a Market (which is expensive) , a Grocer (which I cannot even build) , a Library and an Observatory, which again isn't avilable yet, and this is just to show, that Bejing is just so amazingly powerful with its Wonders, that there is no way but to choose that city as the GP-Farm, as it still can get the Specialists I talked of. 3 Villages are imo not enough to justify to specialize that city towards Commerce, and moving the Palace is cheaper than most people think (it's just 240 :hammers: on these settings iirc, and with the 50% bonus from IND + the Forge in London, that somewhere between 3 and 4 Forrests) .
  • Building the NE and HE in the same city, is a generally weak choice! It's still the right choice in some scenarios (mainly very hard games with very few cities where the capital is just so much stronger that it's still the best choice for both) , but working Specialists contradicts whipping at maximum efficiency.
    In this game, I needed as many troops as possible as early as possible, and while GP-Generation did play a role to be able to keep up in tech, getting the HE in London, which even gets the Bureaucratic bonus on top, was the largest increase in troop production I could go for from the cities that were available to me at that time. Building the GT on top, will simply solve all Happiness issues that would have occured with not building it in that round, and I'd have loved to split up those Wonders and have 2 strong military cities, but the map just didn't offer that to me, because none of the cities I had had enough Food to even come close to what London had, and London on the other side had too eat that Food and produce troops normally.

Using 1 city for everything is something going along, with doing all of those things with lower effectiveness, so splitting up roles is the stronger choice, and one should take it if it's offered. Building the HE in the Capital is the best from a Hammers point of view, and building the NE in a Wonder-rich city must be compared to building it in a Food-rich city by Math.

Regarding Construction and Walls: Construction is something that's really necessary, once Castles come into play. In that game, I was fighting Walls-cities the whole time already, maybe you didn't notice it, but the screen from London i. e. shows that the city's got 50% Wall-defense, and on another screen, you can see that I'm building a Spy, because there's a Walls + Hills-city yet to come, and Walls + Hills really are difficult to handle, so i. e. need great numbers, Siege, or, a Spy :) .

Construction, as Killroyan already noticed:

Construction is already in. He can build catapults as seen in the last screenshot. Seraiel, why did you say that the plains hill is a bad tile? It is in your bureau city so its actually a 6H/1,5 coins tile. Which a forge that is 7H per turn. Why is this bad? You prefer more commerce and more food?

Got available through trade soon afterwards, and with running Theo now it was also the right time for building Catapults, because Catapults really need the Accuracy promotion, because it enhances their value just incredibly, if i. e. comparing an Accuracy Catapult to a normal Catapult when bombarding a Castles-city, the normal Catapult makes lousy 2% bombardement-damage, while the Accuracy Catapult makes 10%! So 1 Accuracy Catapult can be as much as 5 normal Catapults, and only slightly less than an Accuracy Treb (which would do 12% iirc) .

Regarding the Plains-Hill:

PH is a bad tile cause of GT in that city. I love it Sera, and I told you I'm not the only one! Excellent read once again. Could you show us the screens (some simple ones) of neighboring civs territories? Not much info needed there, your diplo explanation is amazing.

*posting in hope to see my name next to the real heroes, even if it'll suicide turn later* :spear:

(unless they're reserved for the best of the best, I'll retreat without shame then) :)

Bonusses must not be taken into account in this case, because the question we're asking is, is it better to whip that tile, or is it better to keep it, and for this question we would need Kossin to get a 100% answer, because I only know rough math like "2 :food: = 1 :hammers:" , and that means, that that tile is giving exactly 1 :commerce: , and that's not enough.

I'll try to "play Kossin" now though and do real math, because I'm not really bad with it:



This shows the city like I wanted it to be, size 11 and only working the Food, the riverside Grassland and the grassland Hill. Food bar shows, that the city needs 63 Food by 1 pop, the Granary ensures that we'll not fall under 50% Food after whipping, so I'll assume I found out that the city has 30 Food after having regrown from size 10 to 11 again. 30 to 63 are 33, and from the whip, we get 44 (* 3 (!)) :hammers: , because the city gets 50% from Buro, 25% from PS, 25% from the Forge and 100% from the HE, so 32 :food: = 132 :hammers: here.
The Plains Hill however gives 4 :hammers: (which get multiplied to 12) :hammers: , but he eats 2 :food: , and the Food-Bar also grows larger:



So we now need 3 more Food to grow by 1 pop, while making 2 Food less and getting 12 Hammers for that. On screen 1, the city had a Food surplus of +18 and needed 33 Food to reach the next pop. That means, that we can whip that city every 1.777 turns and get those 132 :hammers: , so it's 74,82 Hammers / turn.
2nd screen, the city has a surplus of 16 and needs 35 (!!) Food to grow by 1 pop (rounding issue) , thus, 35 Food are 132 Hammers now. We can whip that city every 2.1875 turns to get 132 Hammers, resulting in 60,34 Hammers / turn. We now add the 12 Hammers we get per turn from the Plains-Hill, and now we now, that:

1. scenario, the city generates 74.82 Hammers / turn
2. scenario, the city gets 72,34 Hammers + 1.5 Commerce / turn

This is a lot closer than I actually thought, but it shows that with my original assumption that "a Plains Hill is simply a bad tile" , I was correct, and that we'd get more Hammers than we'd lose Commerce with not working that tile, and as Hammers are even worth more than Commerce in most scenarios (but definately in this one) , whipping the city 11 -> 10 is clearly superior than whipping it 12 -> 11.

Hth,

Seraiel

P.S.: I hope reading this post made BiC happy <3
 
I understand why you don't like Vassalage, but its not always as bad as you make it sound. Vassalage provides a significant number of free units. With a capital that can't support many cottages, it can be better to get the extra free units of Vassalage than run Bureaucracy in a Capital that doesn't leverage it very well.

I do agree that Vassalage is usually not better than Bureaucracy, simply due to the +50% hammer bonus which is hard to beat.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
*posting in hope to see my name next to the real heroes, even if it'll suicide turn later* :spear:

(unless they're reserved for the best of the best, I'll retreat without shame then) :)

Forgot to answer to this <3

The names you'll see in that round were already decided before doing this writeup, and they're basically my friendlist.

There is nothing speaking against us becoming friends though, and with all the feedback that I'm currently getting, chances are good that I'll even write Reaply #9 :) .

Best regards,

Seraiel
 
I understand why you don't like Vassalage, but its not always as bad as you make it sound. Vassalage provides a significant number of free units. With a capital that can't support many cottages, it can be better to get the extra free units of Vassalage than run Bureaucracy in a Capital that doesn't leverage it very well.

I do agree that Vassalage is usually not better than Bureaucracy, simply due to the +50% hammer bonus which is hard to beat.

Sun Tzu Wu

We have to argue about that significant number of free units STW ^^

This is a screenshot from the same time at and the same game of which the other screenshots were taken:



Telling that Vassalage would give us 9 GPT atm.



Telling that the current empire's GNP are 299.

9 of 299 are 3.0x%, and the edge of significance as I learned, is exactly 3%, so you're (as always :mad: ) right with your choice of words, but if you look at it how I look at it, Buro gives over 20 :commerce: , so 2 times as much, and that Commerce also gets multiplied by the Library and the Academy again.

The Hammer-bonus doesn't interest me, it's the Commerce-bonus which is important imho, because 20 Commerce which gets multiplied to 3x :science: , that's between 15 and 20% of the Research I can really conduct at that time!

I said, that there are exceptions where Vassalage is worth it, and your example is one of them, but to be correct, it would need to sound "where the capital and no other city can work many cottages" , because the cost of moving the palace is really only 4 Forrests, so it's quite easy and not even that expensive.

Let's just agree on, that we're both HoF players, so that such rare scenarios as we mentioned, simply play no role at all in our games, and that the game designers just made Vassalage way to weak, so that setting up a city so it'll be suited to run Buro is best.

Seraiel
 
I disagree that moving the capital is always cheap. If you want to win as soon as possible, you don't want to waste hammers moving the capital. A cost benefit analysis must really be performed to really know whether moving the capital is profitable and to determine which turn after moving the capital is the break even point. If the game can be won before the break even point, we reject the idea of moving the capital.

Also, the value of getting an extra +2 XP from Vassalage is hard to measure when one is already getting +2 XP from Theocracy in nearly all cities, but it does have value in that the next promotion is only 3 XP (1-2 low risk combats away) rather than 5XP (2-3 low risk combats away). However, suppose one really needs to run Pacifism while at war which can be the case in a Military Victory game fueled by multiple Golden Ages and the MoM.

Some of your comparisons of game mechanics seem be absolute, whereas I always believe that it often depends on the game situation. While you acknowledge that Vassalage may have some value, you seem to suggest that would never occur in a #1 HoF game. Sorry, I disagree with that assessment. Perhaps, Vassalage doesn't fit into your style of play, since you like to leverage Shrines and spreading religion helps both Shrine income and the +2 XP bonus of Theocracy. Someone that ignores Religion may see greater value in Vassalage; look at all the hammers saved by not building Missionaries.

You most definitely have played the best Deity, Epic, Huge Conquest Victory. However, someone may beat it using a quite different strategy that fits a different map and perhaps player Leader.

Waiting to read future chapters in your epic game!

Sun Tzu Wu
 
@ STW:

I only built 3 Missionaries in the whole game, and I built those because I wanted to steal techs from somebody and therefor needed a city of him to have my religion, I used autospread mechanism.

Shrine and Religion have nothing to do with Buro being the superior Civic. Vassalage is badly balanced, as i. e. Espionage is too, and though I adore that you can believe here, I can't, because I'm 99.99999% sure that the free units by Vassalage are just too few, while the Commerce-bonus from Buro, when heavily exploitet, is simply what makes that Civic stand out even in games with 50+ cities, games where the capital itself really should not matter that much, I did numbers on that in my very beginning time of Civ already though.

Nationhood = as efficient as Buro, but Nationhood is cheaper and with running EE it's even better.

Vassalage however costs a lot, while its benefit can be hardly measured, making me think that it's Vassalage for which one needs a real good reason to run it, that's what I say.

I think I didn't use the word never, did I?

Seraiel said:
Let's just agree on, that we're both HoF players, so that such rare scenarios as we mentioned, simply play no role at all in our games, and that the game designers just made Vassalage way to weak, so that setting up a city so it'll be suited to run Buro is best.

I said "play no role" , so I accept that that Civic is there and that it may be the right choice in rare situations, but that it's bonuses simply come at a too large costs, or are not comparable to the bonuses of the other Civics (-> badly balanced) .

I'm gonna make a Jihad out of this if you don't agree :mad: :D .
 
The explanation of London, GT and the plains hill is just brilliant. Never thought of it that way. You did mention though that the hammers of the plains hill get multiplied to 12. You get 50% from bureau, 25% from forge and 100% from HE. So it is 1H less if I am not mistaken making your setup even better. But during a GA the plains hill would be better then right? 14 hammers and 3 commerce per turn is better then the food.

If it were me I would grow London as big as possible, using all cottages I could get to get the research and the ability to draft longer when I hit Nationalism. But you want speed and keep London at size 11 which is the best point of return on investment foodwise with whipping. If London would grow 1 or 2 sizes would that mean that working the plains hill is all of a sudden better? I am not that good with the numbers over there but where lies the turning point in that? Size 13 means that you need 3 more food for the next pop so will hammers be more interesting then?

About the citizen assigning. Learning something new everyday. Thanx for that tip. You keep amazing me.
 
The explanation of London, GT and the plains hill is just brilliant. Never thought of it that way. You did mention though that the hammers of the plains hill get multiplied to 12. You get 50% from bureau, 25% from forge and 100% from HE. So it is 1H less if I am not mistaken making your setup even better. But during a GA the plains hill would be better then right? 14 hammers and 3 commerce per turn is better then the food.

You forgot that I got the Mids and am running Police State ;) ^^ .

If it were me I would grow London as big as possible, using all cottages I could get to get the research and the ability to draft longer when I hit Nationalism. But you want speed and keep London at size 11 which is the best point of return on investment foodwise with whipping. If London would grow 1 or 2 sizes would that mean that working the plains hill is all of a sudden better? I am not that good with the numbers over there but where lies the turning point in that? Size 13 means that you need 3 more food for the next pop so will hammers be more interesting then?

About the citizen assigning. Learning something new everyday. Thanx for that tip. You keep amazing me.

The thing about whipping is, that it gets less efficient the bigger the city, because with every new point of pop, the Food-Bar grows larger, so the city needs longer to grow from size 19 to 20 i. e. than it needs from size 10 to 11. The Hammers gotten by the whip itself though are changeless, so one gets a lot more hammers / time, if whipping at small city-sizes than one gets when cities are large.
This is basically already the problem with London in that round, the city needs to be size 11 to function as a buro capital, that's a lot larger than one wants the GT-city (or also the HE-city, in this case both) to be. If the city were i. e. only size 4 and would be whipped 4 -> 2 only, the Food-Bar would be a lot smaller, let's say 50%, so the return in Hammers / turn would be a lot larger!

Growing cities large is the right choice when needing as much research as possible, but it's the wrong choice if wanting maximum production. For maximum production it's best, if to have a small city, and keep it small, so whip as often as Happiness allows.

Working that plains hill is basically bad at every time, running a GA makes it slightly better and if there wasn't that stupid rounding issue at size 12 making whipping at that size (and on that speed) already more inefficient because of it, a GA-Plains-Hill would be almost worth working, meaning, one wouldn't lose anything.
What has to be seen in the given example is, that with working the Plains-Hill, the city is actually losing 2 Hammers / turn!

S.
 
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