pedrov said:
Good Heavens! -- You sound surprised.
Research Q&A
- Thread starter Ozymandias
- Start date
Good Heavens! -- You sound surprised.
Bóreas
The Wind of the North
Mistfit said:
Wow! thanx man
that's gonna be really helpful
but i dont know which ones i use as military leader, scientific leader or actual leader....
pedrov
Collector of Threads
ozymandias said:Good Heavens! -- You sound surprised.
I scrambled around trying to find that one (w/out using the Web) and I had zippo before the Khmer Rouge (and I don't think Pol Pot
would have been the best answer). That's what's so cool about this... lots of insanely obscure knowledge. It's like a bunch of trekkies on a sugar buzz 
!
I'm setting up the Mongols in one mod to be quasi-barbarians: they're a Civ that starts with one city and cannot build settlers. I need two names: one for a zero-movement "guard" unit and one for the improvement which spits out a Keshik every couple of turns. Any ideas? (e.g., whatever name the Mongols used for their roving capital would work for the improvement; was there an elite guard I could name the guard unit after?)
Thanks,
Oz
Thanks,
Oz
pedrov
Collector of Threads
ozymandias said:
I'm still looking for more accurate answers to your questions but I'm not sure the Mongol system is going to conform. The generic term for a collection of yurts is "ordu," which roughly corresponds to "camp" in English. This is likely where invading armies would spend their time when not killing everything in sight. Each ordu moved with each army, and would probably be your best bet for a city improvement, as the Mongols had a somewhat-rational fear of sleeping indoors, even in conquered cities, I guess their pillaging minds saw it as too easy to get trapped inside and killed... but, my sarcasm aside, it is true that they always chose a yurt over a building when sleeping or resting (at least in the early period).
The only real permanent settlement in the early Mongolian empire is Karakorum (which was a permanent collection of yurts, though the nobles did not stay here year round... they moved with the khan according to seasonal dictates... but the imported civilian population probably would have stayed put). Everything else either moved (e.g. each ordu) or was a conquered settlement. The only exception to this would be the stations along the paths/roads that led back to Karakorum. I couldn't find the precise names of these, but they were commanded by station masters known as daroga (which is the base for the Russian word for "road"). Western travellers would have travelled down these roads and through these stations under the protection of yams (tartar drivers/controllers). They wouldn't make if far without providing spectacular gifts to virtually everyone they met along the way.
Another avenue for spitting out Keshiks would be a wonder based on "Anda" or "blood bond." Sort of like blood brothers when I was a kid, this is how chieftans swore allegience to one another and thus supplied more warriors to the cause. Much of this would have been governed by "yassak" or, the mongolian code of law set down by Genghis (at the urging of his Chinese chief administrator, Yeliu Chu-tsai).
I can find no reference to a particular elite guard (though my resources are not endless by any means). Someone else may know better. But I can add that the council of mongol chiefs and, by association, the election of a khan, was referred to as "kuriltai." In addition, the equivalent to a Mongol scout of a diplomatic/spy sort was a "chapar" or "courier" at the lowest level and a "tolmidzh" or "interpreter of the will of the khan" at the highest level. Each of these would have carried seals of the khan. Finally, for those who are interested in expanding the mongols further, I'll summarize the Venetian connection in the following post.
pedrov
Collector of Threads
In his book, "The Tartar Khan's Englishman," author Gabriel Ronay puts forward his theory that an Englishman, in the service of Mongolian intelligence, helped plan much of the invasion of the west under Jagatai. The englishman has a very interesting story of his own, but I'll omit the details here. However, in this book, evidence is laid out that the Mongols were "steered" by the Venetians. Evidence of this takes the following form: First, the venetians grow in power at roughly the same time the mongols are trashing russia and other lands to the east. Second, the venetians seemed to have remarkable access to slaves gathered by the mongols and sold in the slave markets of cairo (i.e., the Kipchak slaves who became the backbone of the Mamluks). Examples of this from Arabic sources include the documented 12,000 East European and Caucasian slaves bought from Batu Khan's horde by the Sultan Kalaun. His son an-Nassir bought similar numbers. Many other examples exist and all were shipped by Venetian slave merchants. Third, when the Venetians were having difficulties with their trading rival to the north, Kiev, the Mongol army oddly shifted the direction of their advance, going well out of the way, and obliterated Kiev. Only the households of a handful of Venetian merchants were left standing. Finally, most of the East-to-West trade initiated by the Mongols found its way first to Venetian trading outposts. After the death of Genghis, more and more of Mongol power took the form of monopolizing trade with the Venetians, and less emphasis was put on military conquest.
Enough rambling.
Enough rambling.
@pedrov: 
Thank you for some amazingly useful info. I can see I'll be "fleshing out" the Mongols with "ordus" (probably for the "home guard") and "darogas" (unique trading posts?) etc.
Also very interesting info re: the Venetians et. al. Now how to work that into a mod ...
Many, Many Thanks,
Oz
Thank you for some amazingly useful info. I can see I'll be "fleshing out" the Mongols with "ordus" (probably for the "home guard") and "darogas" (unique trading posts?) etc.Also very interesting info re: the Venetians et. al. Now how to work that into a mod ...
Many, Many Thanks,
Oz
mrtn said:Hm, I have a vague memory of reading here at cfc about the meaning of "Keshik", that that's an elite guard...
So perhaps I should rename the unit "horde" (which is really just Mongolian for "regiment") and use "Keshik" for the guard unit ...
Mistfit
Deity
@ozymandias - Have you looked at the info grom the GOTM25? There was an Ordu Archer UU
Turghaut Cavalry UU
Khorchin UU
and the Bagatur HordeUU
It seems as if there was a unit called the Steppe Settler as well but I couldn't find a pic
Sorry if you already knew of these units but I recently played a SG with these in it and they are really cool.
GOTM25 info page
Turghaut Cavalry UU
Khorchin UU
and the Bagatur HordeUU
It seems as if there was a unit called the Steppe Settler as well but I couldn't find a pic
Sorry if you already knew of these units but I recently played a SG with these in it and they are really cool.
GOTM25 info page
pedrov
Collector of Threads
ozymandias said:@pedrov:
Oz
Just to clarify, the Ordus would be the physical camps, not the people in them. Think of them as mobile forward bases. The mongols circumvented many of the defensive problems the west faced (e.g., the need for a home guard" by basically having everybody move and go to war. There was no place to counterattack. There are many references suggesting that the Mongols recognized this advantage and it was one of the most common proclamations made to to-be-invaded kingdoms. For example, a letter from Batu, probably drafted by the Englishman, to Bela, king of Hungary, finishes with , "...For it is much easier for the Cumanians (i.e., Kipchaks) to wander hither and thither to take flight than for you [Hungarians] who live in fixed houses, have forts and towns; so how do you escape my hands?"
The darogas refer to the captains of the stations, not the stations themselves... if that makes a difference to you. They would have kept fresh ponies for the advancing armies moving across the continent. An army would come in, leave their tired ponies in the care of the station, then continue forward on fresh ponies.
Let me know if you have any more questions or would like more detail... I'm really into the history of the mongols right now so I enjoy searching for this stuff. A snippet about the englishman is that he was connected with the Magna Carta, the personal priest of Robert Fitzwallace (the inspirtation for robin hood), accompanied a dipolmatic mission of King John's to convert England to Islam, was excommunicated by the pope for giving mass to those who had offended the pope via King John, sought attonement during the crusades (4th or 5th), and then became a tolmidzh for the Mongols. Oh, and he was a Templar as well, though kicked out for gambling in Acre. He was probably recruited by the Venetians.
Another update, the favorite generals of Genghis (e.g., Sabotai) were known as the "Dogs of War." This name was granted after the successful campaigns in the west.
pedrov
Collector of Threads
Mistfit said:
Mistfit, how does one get ahold of these units. Cant they be downloaded and used for other scenarios?
Mistfit
Deity
I presumed that they all came from Creation and Customization in the first place so I'd imagine they are here somewhere. I recently found out that the "squid" barbarian unit was made by Kinboat and it was his first unit. (Very cool BTW)
Could you download the needed mods for the game and pull them from there? If not I'm sure a PM to Ainwood would get the needed information.
Edit after some research:
Mongol Horde
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67279
Could you download the needed mods for the game and pull them from there? If not I'm sure a PM to Ainwood would get the needed information.
Edit after some research:
Mongol Horde
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67279
pedrov
Collector of Threads
I'll check it out. Hey, I just noticed we made sticky 
!
!
Mistfit
Deity
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1650124&postcount=2
A different mongol Cav unit here
I edited the post above to include a link to Kinboats Mongol Horde
A different mongol Cav unit here
I edited the post above to include a link to Kinboats Mongol Horde
Anyone? Im doing final modifications to my mod/scenario and one of the modifications was the addition of the Sarmatian civilization. It can represent both sarmatian, schytian (spelling?), dacian or any neighbooring civ, i just need some city and leader names for it. Im going to use both Sarmatian Swordsman and Eastern Cataphract as unique units for them.
My mod is called Civilization: Evolution, it starts after the trojan war and goes all the way to the future age, open ended, earth map. Im releasing a preview version that has the ancient age fully working once im done with these last modifications. If you want more info please check the CDG forums, it has its own section, scroll down until you find "MOD: Civilization: Evolution". I'll post some more info here at civfanatics when i do release the preview version.
My mod is called Civilization: Evolution, it starts after the trojan war and goes all the way to the future age, open ended, earth map. Im releasing a preview version that has the ancient age fully working once im done with these last modifications. If you want more info please check the CDG forums, it has its own section, scroll down until you find "MOD: Civilization: Evolution". I'll post some more info here at civfanatics when i do release the preview version.
pedrov
Collector of Threads
Mistfit said:
Just grabbed them all
... thanks a bundle.
Mistfit
Deity
Madeira said:
I don't know if you could use the different tribe names as cities but here is a list of the tribes and some ideas of their locations.
The Sarmatians never formed a single unified polity; rather they were divided into numerous tribes, the most important of which were:
Alans (Alanoi)
The Alans, from whom the modern Ossetians claim descent, were a branch of the Sarmatians descended from a mélange of peoples, including Eastern tribes such as the Massagetae. The name Alan is thought to be derived from the same source as Iran and Aryan. Some Alan tribes went west during the 300's CE and joined the Visigoths and Vandals in Spain and North Africa. The majority remained in the Caucasus region, around the Darial Pass. Their capital was Maghas (destroyed by the Golden Horde in 1339) and at various times they controlled the port city of Phasis, now in Georgia. Their kings had the title of Kundaj.
Aorsi
The easternmost of the Sarmatian nations, inhabiting the region around the lower Volga River and as far east as the Aral Sea. There may have been two Aorsi nations, one in the north and one in the south. The Chinese knew the Aorsi as Yen-Tsai.
Free Sarmatians
A coalition of minor tribes who raided across the Danube into Roman territory during the mid-300's CE.
Iazyges
One of the westernmost tribal groupings, inhabting Moldavia and eventually pushing their way into Thrace, northern Dacia, and Pannonia. The Iazyges were the nation with which the Romans had the most contact.
Roxolanoi
This tribe probably derives their name from the proto-Iranian Raokhshna, or shining. The name may also derive from a term meaning, essentially, The Western Alans. They were among the most powerful of the Sarmatian tribes, inhabiting much of the region north of the Black Sea. The ruling dynasty of the Bosporan Kingdom (see Crimea) from the end of the 1st century BCE on was Sarmatian in origin, and probably belonged to the Roxolanoi originally.
Saii
A minor Sarmatian tribe in southwestern Ukraine
The Sauromatae
The Sauromatae were the dominant tribal group during the early period of Sarmatian history (c.600-300 BCE). They were supposed to have been descended from a mingling of Amazon women and Scythian men. The only recorded event involving them occurred in 507 BCE, when they joined the Scythians in repelling a Persian invasion.
Siraces (Sirakoi)
A tribal group which migrated to the Black Sea region from what is now Kazakhistan, settling in the Kuban region along the east coast of the Sea of Azov. The Siraces were a relatively small nation, able to muster approximately 20,000 horsemen in the mid first century BCE.
Two other minor Sarmatian tribes were the Iaxamate and the Basileans
Yes, I can use tribe names since I did the same with the germans, britons and other barbaric civs. Thanks!
Thats more than enough to place a few starting cities, but the list will be a bit short, anything else? perhaps from other "civs" like the schytians?
Thats more than enough to place a few starting cities, but the list will be a bit short, anything else? perhaps from other "civs" like the schytians?
Mistfit
Deity
http://www.hostkingdom.net/siberia.html
Some great info here ablout the Eurasian Nomads here as well the SCYTHIANS and the SARMATIANS are listed 3/4 the way down the page with tribe names and King names as well.
![[pimp]](/images/smilies/pimp.gif "Pimp [pimp]")
Some great info here ablout the Eurasian Nomads here as well the SCYTHIANS and the SARMATIANS are listed 3/4 the way down the page with tribe names and King names as well.
This being my favored tribe out of them
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