Research Q&A

pedrov said:
I've got a few units already (e.g., nautilus, airship, steam tank, steam tiger, etc., and even the DaVinci Tank). Anybody have some thoughts on good resources where I can find images and descriptions to pass on to the unitmakers? Where's the uber-googler?

I passed on this link re: the Steam Punk mod; hopefully you'll find it useful -- http://www.zeitcom.com/majgen/60lshp.html

Also a new one :) -- http://www.rudi-geudens.be/
EDIT: look under "Armies & Enemies of Afriboria" / "Vehicles"


-Oz
 
Once I get a good collection, I'll post it on the Creation & Customization main page as a unit-designer's challenge. Basically, the idea is: why would anyone build a simple machine to do a task when a more complicated one can be built? Why use wheels when you can use a dozen legs? Why use computer technology when you can cram together hundreds of gears? Just like the period of invention between, say DaVinci and WW1, it would be mechanistic invention gone mad... much like the spurious land ships (thanks Oz!).

I've been trying to think of a better description. It would have that edge that morrowind tries to give with the dwemer and their inventions or the tinker gnomes from dragonlance. And, as I said, the sort of spirit shown by Moriarty in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
 
Here's a good line of tanks (Steam Powered) and a few others.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech1.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech2.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech3.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech4.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech5.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech6.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech7.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech8.JPG

I was going to
 
Thankth Ubergoogler. I love the WWWest units. I'd forgotten about those. I've been gathering some images of walking tree cutters, Dwemer artifacts, and other various absurdities. I posted the walker below.

I'm curious about how easy it is to convert units from other games into Civ3-compatible units. Isn't it Steph that does a bunch of those? I was think that Total Annihiliation: Kingdoms has some cool units (especially the futuristic civ). TA:K has giant focused lenses that fire light beams, pedal-powered recon aircraft, shock troops with boxy rivetted armor, Steam-like tanks with flame throwers, tank turrets mounted on animals, all kinds of cool stuff. It also has some interesting fantasy, realistic, and animal units for other types of mods.
 

Attachments

Funny, I'm supposed to be writing my dissertation too! :lol:
pedrov said:
As usual, I'm going to take a stab at this by flinging out a bunch of information. This is just a collection of unit/size information from "Brassey's Encyclopedia of Military History and Biography."
Hmm, rather interesting. But how many soldiers in total would Rome or France field? I'm not even sure how many Mongol armies (i.e., 2-3 tumens each) there might have been at a given time. We'd have to divide their total soldiery by the size of the formation to see if the number of those divisions would be mappable onto Civ. Otherwise, me with my 28-city empire, being able to economically field 35 attack units (plus 38 defensive garrisons, 9 artillery units and 20 other units), might not fit well with a roughly-500-combatants-per-unit model. I mean, is 17,500 combat-ready soldiers (or 51,000 personnel in total) sort of what we'd expect from a monarchy of 8,971,000 people in 1575AD? (Of course, these are just stats from the game I'm currently playing, and are probably tainted by the fact that I can't play Civ worth a sh*t. :))
 
Mithadan said:
But how many soldiers in total would Rome or France field? I'm not even sure how many Mongol armies (i.e., 2-3 tumens each) there might have been at a given time. We'd have to divide their total soldiery by the size of the formation to see if the number of those divisions would be mappable onto Civ.

The number of soldiers in an army really varies a lot over time even within the same country. It doesn't necessarily correlate with a country's population. Again, from Brassey's Encyclopedia:

"...as armies are becoming more tecnical, more specialized internally, and more lethal, they are becoming smaller. During WWII, the US Army had 8 million military personnel, the German army numbered 4.5 million, and the Red Army about 7 million. Even during the height of the Cold War, the two major opposing coalitions were planning armies with at most 4 or 5 million on each side. Currently, armies of the NATO nations are being reduced in size as the threat of a major war diminishes... The United States is planning an army of slightly more than 500,000 active and 600,000 selected reserve personnel for the mid-1990s [the article is from 1994]. However, China, Vietnam, North Korea, India, and perhaps the Commonwealth of Independent States and Iraq are likely to have active armies of over 1 million strong for the forseeable future. Despite the reductions in size and the introduction of modern weapons, teh fundamentals of army organization will tend to remain very much the same as they have been since Napoleon and Wellington..."

Obviously, N.Korea doesn't have anywhere near the size of population as the United States and the United States is far more populated today than it was at the end of WW2. Its just based on need and availability. But I'll grant that a civ with 2.5 million citizens is gonna have a really hard time fielding an army of 1 million soldiers.

Also consider that a batallion of infantry (400-1200 men) is equated to a batallion of tanks (maybe 60 tanks plus supporting personnel). The unit should reflect combat power, not necessarily absolute numbers.
 
pedrov said:
The number of soldiers in an army really varies a lot over time even within the same country. It doesn't necessarily correlate with a country's population.
But can we come to some sort of reasonable aproximation? I tried to do some more math (math isn't my strong suit, let's say, in case I made some stupid error): a typical Mongol army was 2-3 tumens. (I'm assuming they'd have more than one army at a given time, maybe one in Europe, another in China, that sort of thing.) Let's say it's a 2 tumen army = 20,000 fighting cavalrymen = 40 Civ units (at 500 men a piece, the accurate term would be "½Minghan"!). So if I can field 40 Keshik-graphics, I've got me a Mongol army. Not bad, I guess. Feels a bit on the high side, though, especially if one can be expected to field more than one "army." If we were to call each Keshik-graphic a (full) "Minghan" (1000 Mongolian horse archers, basically), then I'd only need 20 (upwards of 30) units to have a typical Mongol army. That has a more doable feel to it, I gotta say, 'specially if I wanna try for two "armies" (40-60 Kesihk-graphics). (This would make my 35 attacker Arabians into a rather sizeable army -- if, of course, half of them weren't up in Siberia and the other half in the Congo!) So maybe 1,000 men = 1 civ unit is more reasonable for the Middle Ages at least (modern machinery like tanks, of course, throws this all out of whack)??
 
Bóreas said:
Wow! thanx man
that's gonna be really helpful
but i dont know which ones i use as military leader, scientific leader or actual leader....

I'll give you info on them and let you decide :D
It's quite lengthy so I put it in a spoiler to not take up so much space in the thread :D
Spoiler :

Atlanersa
(653 BCE - 640 BCE)
Atlanersa was most likely one of Taharqa’s sons. Very little is known about his reign. It is likely that Atlanersa was the king of Kush that the Greek historian Herodotus wrote about. He spoke of a king who encouraged the Egyptian soldiers stationed at Elephantine to desert their king and to come to Kush. The king promised the soldiers that, if they got rid of his enemies in the southern part of his kingdom, they could take over all their lands and settle there. So the Egyptian soldiers deserted Egypt. They went to work for the king of Kush, destroyed his enemies, took over their lands, and built towns there. Six centuries later Roman writers reported that the descendants of these Egyptians soldiers were still living in these towns in their day and had their own rulers, who were loyal to the king (or queen) of Meroë.

Atlanersa is best known from his beautiful granite stand from Jebel Barkal, now in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. He probably died unexpectedly, for both his temple at Jebel Barkal and his tomb at Nuri were left unfinished when he died.


Taharqa
690-664 B.C.
25th Dynasty

Taharqa was the brother of Shebitku and was the third king of the Twenty-fifth Dynasty. Shebitku died and Taharqa was crowned. Taharqa is responsible for building done both in Nubia as well as Egypt. He built the colonnade in the first court of the temple of Amun at Karnak. There is one column that stands twenty-one meters high and is still standing. During his reign, the Assyrians threatened Egypt once again. The Assyrians were successful in one invasion in which they captured Memphis, wounded Taharqa and stole his family and property. Taharqa survived the attack. It is thought that Taharqa died in 664 BC and was buried in his pyramid at Nuri near Napata.
Not a milatary genious by the sounds of it

Senkamanisken
(640 BCE - 620 BCE)
Like Atlanersa, Senkamanisken is known only from his monuments but not from any historical inscriptions. He completed a small temple at Jebel Barkal started by Atlanersa. By the door of the temple, he placed a giant statue, about 4 meters (about 14 feet) high, which is now in the Sudan National Museum. Archaeologists also found three smaller statues and a sphinx representing the king at Jebel Barkal. His chief wife, Queen Nasalsa, outlived Senkamanisken. She was also the mother of two of his sons who became kings, Anlamani and Aspelta.
Not a lot of info on this chap

Anlamani
(620 BCE - 600 BCE)
Anlamani was Senkamanisken’s son. Archaeologists learned about Anlamani from an inscribed stela (stone slab with writing carved into it) found at Kawa. The stela describes his coronation. It also tells about his decision to make four of his sisters "sistrum-players" in the four national temples of Amun. (The sistrum was a kind of rattle used in religious ceremonies.) People believed that the sound of the sistrum put the gods in a good mood. Women of the royal family were chosen to play these rattles in the temples. Anlamani’s inscription also describes his warfare against the desert tribe called Bulahayo. He captured men and women in battle and put them to work as servants in the temples. Archaeologists found two statues of the king at Jebel Barkal. One life size statue is now in Khartoum. The other is over 12 feet high! That statue is in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. In 1920, archaeologists excavated the palace of Anlamani at Jebel Barkal and found his actual throne room.
A bit better for military I suppose

Aspelta
(600 BCE - 580 BCE)
Aspelta was Anlamani’s brother. He became king after Anlamani died. According to things written during his reign, not everyone was happy about his becoming king. In his second year, he had trouble with some priests and ordered them executed. Soon after, perhaps to make up for executing the priests, he made some large gifts to the temple and built tombs for some long dead officials, who had no tombs.

Early in his reign Aspelta seems to have thought about a re-invasion of Egypt. The Egyptian king, Psammeticus II, attacked him first. According to Egyptian inscriptions, Psammeticus invaded Kush with an army of Egyptians and Greek mercenaries. He defeated a Nubian force and went on to attack the "town called the Cliff," which was probably Napata and Jebel Barkal. After this event, in 593 BCE, Aspelta moved his court further south to Meroë. You can see a giant statue of the king in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, and his sphinx in the Sudan National Museum, Khartoum. His pyramid tomb at Nuri was one of the finest, most highly finished of all the Ku****e royal pyramids. It was also one of the least plundered. Archaeologists found many beautiful jewels and vessels of gold and alabaster there. These are shared between the Boston and Khartoum Museums.
:hmm:

Irike-amanote
(430 BCE - 400 BCE)


Irike-amanote (pronounced Ee-ree-keh-a-ma-no-teh) is one of the few kings after Aspelta known by his writings. The reason for this is probably because few people in Kush, after this time, remembered how to read or write in the Egyptian language. Irike-amanote is known from three Egyptian inscriptions, which he left at different times in his reign in the Amun temple at Kawa. These tell us that he came to the throne when he was "a youth" (41 years old!) and that he reigned at least 25 years more (meaning that he lived to be at least 66). He tells us that just before he was officially crowned, the nomads north of Meroë began a revolt and he had to go to war with them. Only after that was he able to go to Napata and Jebel Barkal for his coronation.

Later he took a trip from Napata down the river to visit the north. At this time, another nomad tribe, called the Meded, revolted. He then sent his army to seize their lands and capture the people to serve as servants in the temples. Some researchers think that Irike-amanote may have helped the Egyptians revolt against the invading Persians in 414-13 and 404 BCE. His pyramid at Nuri is one of the largest in the cemetery. Sadly, no pictures of the king survive.

Harsiotef
(390 BCE - 350 BCE)
Harsiotef is known from a stele (or round-topped stone monument) inscribed in Egyptian, which was found at Jebel Barkal. This stele was made after the king had ruled 35 years (which is the longest known reign of a Ku****e king). The inscription describes the events of his reign. It reveals that he had constantly to fight the desert people in his kingdom. He records that at one time the nomads even took over Meroë, his royal city. He also speaks of raids by his army into the desert, of capturing certain desert chiefs, and seizing lots of cattle. He sent his army into Lower Nubia three times, perhaps to try to extend his empire to the north, as in days of old. Harsiotef’s inscription is especially interesting because it describes the holy site of Jebel Barkal as it was in his day. He speaks of covering temples partly with gold, of laying out gardens and cattle pens, and of rebuilding the old royal palace there, which, he says, had sixty rooms.

Nastasen
(335 BCE - 315 BCE)
Archaeologists learned about Nastasen from a stele (stone slab with writing carved into it) originally set up at Jebel Barkal. It was found at Letti, many miles downstream. It was carried there by people in ancient times and built into a building of the Christian period. We don’t know how long Nastasen ruled, but his text is dated to the eighth year of rule. Like so many other Ku****e royal inscriptions, it describes the king’s journey from Meroë to Napata for his coronation at Jebel Barkal. It also describes his visits to the important temples in the north. The text tells us that in his early reign, a "chief" from Egypt named Kambasawden invaded Lower Nubia. Kambasawden came with transport ships, people, and cattle. Nastasen’s army defeated the invaders, took their treasure, and dedicated it to the god Amun. The text mentions several other battles against desert peoples. These were also victorious and resulted in the capture of large numbers of cattle, goats, women, slaves, and gold.


Arkamani-qo
(270 BCE - 260 BCE)
Arkamani-qo is one of the rare kings of Kush mentioned by name in Greek histories. The Greek author Agatharcides of Cnidus, writing in the second century BCE, stated that Arkamani-qo, whom he called "Ergamenes," lived at the same time as King Ptolemy II of Egypt (285-246 BCE). Agatharcides explains that before Ergamenes became king, the priests of Amun always had the power to end a king’s reign. All they had to do was send a letter to him ordering him to commit suicide. These letters were written as if they came directly from the god. Ergamenes received one of these letters, but instead of committing suicide, he marched to the temple with his troops and killed the priests!

This story is probably true, for Arkamani-qo was the first king to build his pyramid at Meroë rather than at Napata (i.e. Nuri). Many other changes also took place during and after his reign. For example, the Nubians began to develop their own styles of art and architecture that were different from Egyptian styles. They invented Meroitic writing, which replaced Egyptian at about this time. The Meroitic lion god Apedemak became as powerful as the Egyptian god Amun. The king’s name seems to mean "Arkamani King," and scholars believe that he was the founder of a new dynasty. It is with his reign the the "Meroitic" Period is thought to begin.

Amanislo ("Amonasro")
(260 BCE - 250 BCE)
Amanislo ordered the building of the second royal pyramid at Meroë, and may have been Arkamani-qo’s son. He was the last king to rebuild the old palace at Jebel Barkal before a new one replaced it. He is famous mostly because he put his name on two granite lion statues at Jebel Barkal. In the 1820’s British explorers carried these statues to England and put them in the British Museum. Scholars first read the king’s name as "Amonasro." When the composer Giuseppi Verdi wrote his famous opera, Aida (about a Ku****e princess who falls in love with an Egyptian prince), he gave the name of "Amonasro" to Aida’s father.
 
@Mithadan:

I'm not sure there's any reason for all of us to have the same sizes of unit formations. I think there are valid reasons to let the units range from 500-1000 infantry in Ancient and Medieval times.

As I noted earlier, Alexander's world-crushing army was 35,000 strong (though it surely pulled in conscripts from conquered territories as time went on). This could be handled with 70 units (at 500 men per unit).

Batu's invasion force for Europe consisted of 160,000 men drawn from two theaters as well as a bunch of recently-conquered Kipchaks. These estimates come from Chinese and Arabic sources and may have been inflated. Regardless, this was a large army by Mongol standards. Batu (Sabotai really) was up against a Polish Army of 100,000 (consisting of Poles, Bavarians, an elite Templar unit from France, Teutonic Knights, and other mercenaries), a Bohemian army of 50,000, and a Hungarian army of 100,000. At 160,000 men at 500 units each, this would require 320 units just to account for the Mongol forces! A lot by game standards. His opponents would require 500 units!

It's worth pointing out that Sabotai's army was quite large, particularly for a mounted army. In fact, Sabotai's ability to maneuver led to European estimates that his army had 600,000 men... he was very good. There were plans for this (much smaller) army to invade much of Europe (and they probably would have succeeded if Batu hadn't returned for the kuriltai). Again, their numbers were increased by adding prisoners whom they would march ahead of them when sieging cities. I found one example of them marching 40,000 axe-wielding prisoners ahead of them to clear barricades. They would then use these prisoners to carry their loot back over the mountains before killing them all.

In the battle of Agincourt, Henry fielded 5000 archers and 800 men-at-arms, defeating a french army of 25,000 to 30,000. Here, Henry's army would require 11-12 units and the French would require 60 units. And don't let anyone tell you the English lowbows won that battle.

Looking at a battle between the Huns and the Romans & Visigoths, modern historians doubt that either side fielded an army larger that 25,000 or 30,000 men. This stands in contrast to claims made at the time that 165,000 died in the battle. For our purposes, there would be 60 units on each side at most.

Overall, I think you're right. There are many cases where 1000-man (or perhaps even larger) infantry units are called for. But, from the standpoint of military organization, generals from a wide range of ages and cultures seemed to arrive at 500 as a common unit size. In addition the prevalence of ancient historians to overestimate the number of combatants may be clouding our current conceptions of ancient war. In fact, I doubt many ancient historians bothered counting beyond 10,000 men. In ancient China, there is a period where saying 10,000 is equivalent to saying "There are more than I'm going to sit down and count."
 
Mithadan said:
But can we come to some sort of reasonable aproximation? ...
No, we can't. :p
What I mean is that you have to take the size of your map into consideration. Tiny or Huge make a big difference in how many units you have.
500 sounds good to me. :)

BTW, during the 30 years war Sweden fielded an army comprising about 10% of the population; 150k from a 1.5m population. TLC wrote something about this in the history forum, and how it was possible due to the organizational genius of chancellor Axel Oxenstierna.
I think it's safe to say that he researched the tech that gives Mobilization. ;)
 
Mistfit said:
If you have a list of city names that you are using I might be able to find their proper placement.

Ok, here's the list im using, if you give me a better one i'll take it :)
I think some may represent tribes, while others may be actual settlements

Gothiscandza
Gautigoth
Ostrogoth
Vestrogoth
Wagoth
Euagi
Otingis
Ragnariker
Winowilotd
Suetiden
Heruler
Grannier
Augandzer
Eunixer
Taetel
Rugi
Arocher
Ranier
Gediden
Odyssitana
Anchiacos
Syrmis
Vindomia
Basiana
Naissus
Stobis
Eraklea
Larissa
Cerrus
Mediana
Petina
Bereu
Sium
Sirmium
Ulmeruger
Wandalen
Spaler
Golthescytha
Thiuden
Inauxer
Wasinabronken
Merens
Mordens
Imniskaren
Rogas
Tadzans
Athaul
Navego
Bubegans
Koldas
Heruler
Aesten
Rosomonen
 
In the spoiler tab are a listing of anchient Germanic towns and their Lattitude and Longitude this is from Ptolemy's Geographia that I found from a site called Germanic Tribes Portal
Spoiler :
§27. The ancient towns occuring around Germania in the northern climate.
Fleoum 28° 50? 54° 45?
Siatoutanda 29° 20? 54° 20?
Tecelia 31° 0? 55° 0?
Fabiranon 31° 30? 55° 20?
Treva 33° 0? 55° 40?
Leufana 34° 15? 54° 40?
Lirimiris 34° 30? 55° 30?
Marionis 34° 30? 54° 50?
the other Marionis 36° 0? 55° 35?
Coinoenon 36° 20? 55° 30?
Astouia 37° 20? 54° 30?
Aleisos 38° 0? 55° 0?
Lacibourgion 39° 0? 55° 35?
Bounition 39° 30? 55° 30?
Virounon 40° 30? 55° 0?
Virition 41° 0? 54° 30?
Rugion 42° 30? 55° 40?
Scurgon 43° 0? 55° 0?
Ascaucalis 44° 0? 54° 15?
§28. The ancient towns on the climatic zone below.
Asciburgion 27° 45? 42° 30±
Navalia 28° 10? 43° 10?
Mediolanion 28° 45? 53° 45?
Teuderion 29° 30? 53° 20?
Bogadion 30° 15? 52° 0?
Stere(n)ontion 31° 0? 52° 10?
Amaseia 31° 30? 51° 30?
Mountion 31° 40? 52° 30?
Toulifouron 32° 0? 54° 0?
Ascalingion 32° 30? 53° 45?
Toulisurgion 32° 40? 53° 20?
Feugaron 32° 40? 52° 15?
Canduon 33° 0? 51° 20?
Tropaia Druson 33° 45? 52° 45?
Luppia 34° 30? 52° 45?
Mesouion 35° 30? 53° 45?
Argelia 36° 30? 52° 20?
Calaigia 37° 30? 52° 20?
Lupfurdon 38° 30? 51° 40?
Susudata 38° 30? 55° 50?
Colancoron 39° 0? 53° 30?
Lugiduunon 39° 30? 52° 30?
Stragona 39° 20? 51° 40?
Limiosaleion 41° 0? 53° 30?
Budorigon 41° 0? 52° 40?
Leucaristos 41° 45? 52° 40?
Arsonion 43° 30? 52° 20?
Calisia 43° 45? 52° 50?
Setidava 44° 0? 53° 30?
§29. Ancient towns in the climate below this.
Aleison 28° 0? 51° 30?
Budoris 28° (30?) 51° 0?
Mattiacon 30° 0? 50° 50?
Artaunon 30° (10?) 50° 0?
Novaision 31° j 51° 10?
Melocauos or Melocabos 31° 30? 50° 20?
Gravionarion 31° 45? 50° 10?
Locoriton 31° 30? 49° 20?
Segodounon 31° 30? 49° 0?
Deovona 32° 30? 48° 45?
Bergion 33° 0? 49° 30?
Menosgada 34° 0? 49° 30?
Bicurgion 34° 30? 51° 15?
Marobudon 35° 0? 49° 0?
Redintuinon 38° 30? 50° 30?
Nomisterion 39° 0? 51° 0?
Meliodunon 39° 0? 49° 0?
Casurgis 39° 15? 50° 10?
Strevinta 39° 15? 49° 30?
Egitmatia or Egematia 39° 40? 51° 0?
Budorgis 40° 0? 50° 30?
Eburon 41° 0? 49° 30?
Arsicua 41° 40? 49° 0?
Parienna 42° 0? 49° 20?
Setovia 42° (30?) 50° 0?
Carrodunon 42° 40? 51° 30?
Asanca 43° 0? 50° 20?
§30. In the remainder, these ancient towns around the Danube river.
Tarodounon 28° 20? 47° 50?
Flavian Altars 30° 40? 48° 0?
Riusiava 31° 0? 47° 30?
Alcimoennis 32° 30? 47° 30?
Cantioibis 32° 40? 48° 20?
Bibacon 33° 0? 48° 0?
Brodentia 33° 45? 48° 0?
Setuacoton 34° 0? 48° 20?
Usbion 35° 0? 47° 0?
Abiluon 35° 20? 47° 20?
Furgisatis 36° 0? 48° 0?
Coridorgis 37° 15? 48° 30?
Medoslanion 38° 0? 47° 10?
Felicia 39° 0? 48° 30?
Eburodunon 39° 0? 48° 0?
Anduaition 40° 30? 47° 40?
Celamantia 41° 0? 47° 40?
Singone 41° 30? 48° 15?
Anabon or Anavon 41° 50? 47° 30?


I'm still looking for a good on-line program to help with finding the lattitude and longitude. If someone knows of one please post it. I hope this helps :D

__________________
Ubergoogler
 
Mistfit said:
Thank you there is enough info in that Gremanic tribes portal to do a whole mod by itself. Any luck on the Long/Lat finder?

I'm not entirely certain what you're looking to convert -- I did Google "longitude calculator" and got a slew of results back ...

-Oz
 
Mistfit said:
I thought it would be helpful if we found somthing that Madeira could type in the Lattitude and Longitude and it would point on the map where those coordinates are

I haven't programmed in years -- so I'm not volunteering! -- but it sounds like that should be an easy enough one to write ... Maybe put out a new thread as a request? After all, we do have some fine programmers among us.

-Oz
 
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