Resources on steppe nomads

[aelf]

I'm interested in the history of the Xiongnu in particular, but I don't know where to start looking for good reads. The only author that I've seen consistently cited on the internet is Pulleyblank. Would that be a good source to begin with? Anyone?

My interest in the Xiongnu stems from my early education, which incorporated famous tales from ancient China, and from the fact that they were probably one of the most powerful nomadic tribes before the Mongolians, having defeated the first emperor of the Han Dynasty (who was certainly a formidable strategist). They also drove out the Yuezhi, who drove out the Saka, who conquered the Indo-Hellenic lands.

But feel free to talk about other steppe nomads and resources on them.

 

[innonimatu]

I've just read a little about the Xiongnu, by Denis Sinor. Perhaps he wrote some book about them, I don't know. He did mention that all written sources about the Xiongnu are chinese, and that the few archeological remains found in Mongolia from that period did not yield much information. Mongol-like nomadic warrior empire which sought both trade and loot from China. Their empire grew to include ethnically diverse people, their rulers were attracted to chinese luxuries and culture, and the whole thing broke down after a few centuries. They probably mingled with the Han chinese, as 200 000 Xiongnu are supposed to have been massacred on orders by Shi Jian of the Later Zhao dynasty.

It looks like they were the mongolians, under a period of (historically brief) political union, which they would repeat later, several times.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Isn't there a belief that the Xiongnu were the ancestors of the Huns?

 

[Masada]

Yes, there isn't much historical basis for that supposition however. Basically, the theory goes that the Xiongnu were driven west by the Chinese and a few hundred years later made an appearance as Huns in Europe. First of all we don't know much about the Xiongnu or Huns to begin with. Second of all our sources don't really provide much of a link between the two either. So its fairly tenuous.

 

[Lord Baal]

Yes, there isn't much historical basis for that supposition however. Basically, the theory goes that the Xiongnu were driven west by the Chinese and a few hundred years later made an appearance as Huns in Europe. First of all we don't know much about the Xiongnu or Huns to begin with. Second of all our sources don't really provide much of a link between the two either. So its fairly tenuous.

Particularly given the massive disparity in the populations of both. Even assuming - almost certainly correctly - that the Chinese chroniclers exaggerated the population and size of the Xiongnu they still vastly outnumbered the Huns that arrived in Europe. I think it's a pretty bogus theory myself. A case of; "Hey, these guys disappeared in Asia, and these chaps showed up in Europe a short time later with a few similarities. They must be the same!"

 

[aelf]

Given that historical opinions these days seem to favour the idea of the Xiongnu as a confederation rather than a distinct tribe, it's not surprising that the Xiongnu disappeared. The Xiongnu confederation disappeared because it collapsed. The Huns were also a confederation and as such may have included descendants of the former Xiongnu tribes, even as core elements, but even so saying Huns = Xiongnu is just plain silliness. Imagine going to party A and then going with a few of the same friends to party B days later and concluding therefore that party A and party B are the same just in different places.

inno, what's the name of the Denis Sinor book you're talking about?

 

[Masada]

There's also that. But I don't even think we know anything about the Xiongnu elites. We don't know all that much about the Hunnic elite for that matter either. It isn't important either. I suppose it might be if one is inclined towards Chinese nationalism.

 

[innonimatu]

Given that historical opinions these days seem to favour the idea of the Xiongnu as a confederation rather than a distinct tribe, it's not surprising that the Xiongnu disappeared. The Xiongnu confederation disappeared because it collapsed.

That makes sense. In any case, if they had migrated, it would make more sense for them to turn to Central Asia and then south to Iran than to reach Europe north of the Black Sea. The nomads were always attracted by the riches of civilization, and the next alternative to China was Iran. The Yuezhi, defeated by the first powerful emperor of the Xiongnu, headed that way and are credited with having led the coalition of nomads which destroyed the greco-bactrian kingdoms by the end of the 2nd c. BC.
In Mongolia the successors to the Xiongnu seem to have been a different tribe/confederation, the Ruanruan, though probably they were the same people (another iteration of a Mongol empire!). The Xiongnu by that time (4th century) were sinicized and ruled portions of northern China, eventually disappearing from history. And the Kushan empire in Central Asia, which had succeeded the greco-bactrian kingdoms, was collapsing and falling to yet another nomad invasion (Hephthalites).

inno, what's the name of the Denis Sinor book you're talking about?

It wasn't not a book, just a few pages he contributed to a world history. As I said, I don't know if he wrote any books about this subject.

Particularly given the massive disparity in the populations of both. Even assuming - almost certainly correctly - that the Chinese chroniclers exaggerated the population and size of the Xiongnu they still vastly outnumbered the Huns that arrived in Europe. I think it's a pretty bogus theory myself. A case of; "Hey, these guys disappeared in Asia, and these chaps showed up in Europe a short time later with a few similarities. They must be the same!"

Yes. "Huns", in the west, became the catch-all term for asian nomad invaders (previously that term had been "Scythian". In China "Xiongnu" seems to have served the same purpose for a few centuries. It does not follow that they were the same people.

 

[Dachs]

I read a fantastic monograph on the Yuezhi entitled The Yuezhi: Origin, Migration, and the Conquest of Northern Bactria by one Craig G. R. Benjamin. You may wish to look it up; he ends up talking a lot about the Xiongnu as described in the Houhanshu and the Xiongnu-Yuezhi-Former Han relationship prior to migration.

 

[aelf]

Cool. I don't mind reading something on the Yuezhi either

Anyway, I've read somewhere that the Xiongnu idea of rulership as shanyu, which means something like Majesty the Son of Heaven, eventually made its way to the Chinese court and influenced the conception of the Emperor. I thought it was the other way round. Any clues?