RFC Mesoamerica and Andes

[SouthernKing]

Great idea! If you want and/or need any help just PM me or something, I will see what I can do

 

[stolenrays]

I was thinking of adding some new resources for my mod updates. Some of these may be what you need in your mod. I'll post here again if I am able to make them.

 

[constantinople]

Let me know if you need any help brainstorming UPs and UHVs.

 

[Theodorick]

I have a few concerns with this mod I would like to bring up, and possibly avoid potential snags in its development.

1. The Spanish. I've heard some say they should work similarly to the Mongols in SOI, and I need to point out that this would be impossible. The Mongols were conquering with similar technology to the civilizations in SOI, so it is easily possible to defend against their invasions. The Mongols also weren't invincible in reality, and were stopped many times. When the Mongol's empires collapsed, the native populations mostly resumed independent rule. The Spanish on the other hand would conquer with far superior technology, with few ways to defend against unless the modder throws realism out of the window, were fairly close to invincible with how they ate up the new world, and when their empire collapsed, the nations that spawned were uniquely European in character, with no native population successfully resuming independent rule. How will the European conquests be introduced realistically and in an enjoyable way? Defending against the mongols was fun because you had a chance. But in this mod, it seems it would be right to call a game-over to Pre-Columbian civilizations after 1492. This brings up the next issue...

2. Technology. Whoever creates the technology tree for this mod will need rather extensive knowledge of Pre-Columbian civilizations, since their technology tree will be so unlike the typical Civilization technology tree, it will have to be started from scratch. The Pre-Columbian civilizations had roads, but no wheel; they had complex construction projects, but no metal tools; two had writing systems, but for different reasons (the Inca's writing system is still indiscipline, but it's suspected it was used to collect taxes); they had animal husbandry, but no horses; they mined copper extensively, but only to make decorative alloys like tumbaga, and so on. The technology tree will have to extend stone age technology rather far. Now what will be done with the tree when it transfers from the Pre-Columbian era to the Early Modern period? That would be an enormous technological jump, with most of the technology tree being filler that may not ever even be used. No matter what you do, the technology tree is going to be very uneven, with one side being distinctly Pre-Columbian, and the other side being European, with no coherent middle-ground to fill the massive technological gap both periods will face.

I am not trying to bash this mod. I am actually Cree myself, so I'd love to see this finished and flourishing. I am just curious on how these issues will be dealt with? My solution is pretty drastic though. I'd just end the mod in 1492. That still gives a huge timeline for a full, and epic game; but it also just ignores the issues instead of dealing with them.

 

[Leoreth]

What's your definition of old world again?

 

[Theodorick]

What's your definition of old world again?

Aha, sorry. I just noticed this as well. I'll edit.

 

[hangman]

I have a few concerns with this mod I would like to bring up, and possibly avoid potential snags in its development.

1. The Spanish. I've heard some say they should work similarly to the Mongols in SOI, and I need to point out that this would be impossible. The Mongols were conquering with similar technology to the civilizations in SOI, so it is easily possible to defend against their invasions. The Mongols also weren't invincible in reality, and were stopped many times. When the Mongol's empires collapsed, the native populations mostly resumed independent rule. The Spanish on the other hand would conquer with far superior technology, with few ways to defend against unless the modder throws realism out of the window, were fairly close to invincible with how they ate up the new world,

That's not entirely true. Although the Spanish had vastly superior technology, the conquistadors generally had such small numbers that they could have been beaten back, were it not for a few circumstances. In the case of the Aztecs, the Siege of Tenochtitlan could probably have been ended if they had not soured their diplomatic relations with the Tarascans. Cortez was also aided by numerous disaffected polities in the region, which was also avoidable.

In the Andes, it didn't help that the Incan empire had just resolved a civil war and were dealing with the brunt of the plague when Pizzaro arrived. Had Wayna Kapak not been so stupid, the empire would have saved a huge amount of material and human resources.

It's also important to remember that the conquistadors were generally acting illegally, since Spain had explicitly defined its role in the Americas to be primarily a Christianizing effort. However, Spain did not reject the vast amount of plunder brought by the conquistadors' exploits, and the rest is history. Had Cortez's recklessness not paid off, he would either have been killed by the natives in Mexico or imprisoned by the Spanish colonial authorities.

2. Technology. Whoever creates the technology tree for this mod will need rather extensive knowledge of Pre-Columbian civilizations, since their technology tree will be so unlike the typical Civilization technology tree, it will have to be started from scratch.

Shouldn't be a problem. SoI's tech tree is also pretty much from scratch.

The technology tree will have to extend stone age technology rather far.

From an archeological standpoint, mesoamerican and andean developments follow such a different trajectory from old world civs that it's usually difficult to accurately place them on an old world technological timeline. Nevertheless, the stone age ended relatively early in the timeline of this mod.

Now what will be done with the tree when it transfers from the Pre-Columbian era to the Early Modern period? That would be an enormous technological jump, with most of the technology tree being filler that may not ever even be used.

I think much of it could be condensed into a small number of techs, similar to how RFCE has "arabic knowledge" as a single, advanced tech.

No matter what you do, the technology tree is going to be very uneven, with one side being distinctly Pre-Columbian, and the other side being European, with no coherent middle-ground to fill the massive technological gap both periods will face.

Aside from introducing new units, I don't think the tech gap will need to be "filled," per se. I think it's fair to say that if any of the pre-Colombian civs had survived for a substantial amount of time, they would have rapidly caught up to the Europeans, similar to how native americans in the plains quickly adopted horses and guns, and posed a legitimate threat to US expansion.

I am not trying to bash this mod.

I didn't take it that way

I am actually Cree myself, so I'd love to see this finished and flourishing. I am just curious on how these issues will be dealt with? My solution is pretty drastic though. I'd just end the mod in 1492. That still gives a huge timeline for a full, and epic game; but it also just ignores the issues instead of dealing with them.

That was my original idea, but I decided to extend it, considering that the Spanish were kind of a big deal The post-colonial civs might be a bit much, but we'll see...

 

[hangman]

Here's the title screen I put together. Enjoy!

 

[civ-addicted]

thirst!
Looking awesome! I somehow thought that the mod was done for But now i hope that the pause was used effieciently

 

[hoplitejoe]

Looking very nice!

 

[hangman]

Thanks! Things have been slow, but not stopped, due to school. But I had a burst of creativity yesterday and decided to capitalize on it lol

 

[SouthernKing]

I like this title screen!

 

[Optical]

Looks great!

 

[hoplitejoe]

How is this going?

 

[hangman]

Still slow going, but things are still moving. I have new llama, passionfruit, and feathers resources, and I fixed a couple of problems I was having. I have most of the art that I'll need, so really I just need to add in the civs, buildings, and units before I post a pre-alpha. Granted, it will probably be time-consuming. I have a month off for winter, and an easier semester this spring, so things should start picking up again fairly soon.

 

[Optical]

If you have any XML stuff that needs doing, I've got plenty of time to help after tomorrow (exams over, yay! )

 

[hangman]

Thanks, that would definitely speed things up! I'll let you know when I post what I have. Also, if you have any questions/comments/uploads/etc on modding this, please use the outsourcing thread; it will keep things more organized for me

 

[SouthernKing]

I can also help with XML, also if you need flags/music I can do that as well (I should have time)

 

[hangman]

I think I'll handle the music myself, to make sure it has the flavor I want. I could use flags though. I have some, but I'll post a list of the ones I need when I get a chance.

 

[SouthernKing]

I think I'll handle the music myself, to make sure it has the flavor I want. I could use flags though. I have some, but I'll post a list of the ones I need when I get a chance.

OK, I can do that.