Rhino - Deity Hatty - Random Personalities

[OneLeggedRhino]

Thanks. Yeah, marathon speed is big here. I have probably 14 turns (6 for MC, and I'm guessing 8 for Machinery). On normal speed that would be 5 turns, and I'd probably only get the holy city before facing maces.

By the way, I did some figuring out this morning, thought it would be of general interest:

When I looked at Wedge, I had about 30 turns left in Currency, and it had a 9 turn impact. At that time, I'd already had the city for 30 turns. So figure Wedge had a total of a 20 turn impact on Currency. (After that it became breakeven or slightly positive, due to building wealth). If I'd skipped it, my attack would have hit before Saladin completed Feudalism.

If we assume Banana had the same impact, not founding it would put the attack around the time Stalin and Shaka went to war, and taking Saladin's land would have been a cakewalk.

The gold city I like. It has significant production and was a net positive to my economy once the gold got mined. But Banana and Wedge were mistakes, because I hadn't keyed in on "Conquer Saladin" as my main next step.

 

[Madmortigan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSLlZh9yelk&feature=player_embedded

 

[coanda]

Banana might have been worthwhile - Saladin might have taken it if you didn't. It also was a stronger city than Wedge - it took 70 turns to get Bananas into a strong production city, while Wedge is further away (higher upkeep) and still pretty weak 90 turns later.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Longbows are Easy (Turns 334-344, Years 160-60 BC)

Time for the war. I declare and move my stack before ending the turn.

Spoiler :

I'm racing against Machinery. Metal Casting is in 6, and I'm guessing Machinery is 8 after that. So I have a total of 14 turns, enough time to take 2-3 cities.

The plan is to go holy city, SE to Baghdad, SW to Mecca.

Spoiler :

Those 3 cities are pretty safe from the rest of his culture. After Mecca, I'll decide how worried I am about Stalin jumping in and either make peace or sweep the rest of Saladin's land.

I end the turn. What will Saladin do?

170 BC: Answer: Nothing. Saladin moves a total of 2 chariots into my land. They are going for Spices, a city I hadn't considered frontline, so I kill one with an axe and move an archer from Gold to cover.

Spoiler :

Gold gets protection from 2 catapults, and everyone is happy.

Also, notice that Saladin's research time is up to 7 turns. The war slowed down his tech rate, which is the real clock I'm racing again.

120: The holy city is bombarded down, time to attack:

Spoiler :

I lose 4 cats and win every other fight. Seems I was scared of the longbows for nothing.

Holy cow, 26 GPT from the shrine. It's a really nice city.

Spoiler :

I whip a library once it comes out of resistance, both for culture and for the Great Library scientists.

Also, espionage is 25% cheaper now.

And with my reinforcements, I'll be rolling again in a couple of turns.

Spoiler :

90 BC: Stalin gets longbows. Saladin can vassal to him.

Spoiler :

But Shaka has been preparing for war since 160 BC. Maybe I'll get lucky and Shaka will keep Stalin busy while I finish Saladin.

70: Saladin starts Machinery. 13 turns. That slowed research rate is really helping me.

60: Ready to attack Baghdad. 3 cats and a sword lost, a city gained.

Spoiler :

There's no dedicated military city yet, so the Great General will become a super healer.

Remember how I wanted the Great Lighthouse? Well, now I have it:

Spoiler :

Forgot the resource bubbles, but it has cow, copper, horses and fish.

Conquering wonder whores is awesome. Though now, I rather wish I'd settled Wheat and Spices as coastal cities.

Also, Machinery is up to 16 turns now. And it'll be even longer after I conquer Mecca.

But now I'm worried about Saladin vassaling to Stalin. I don't know the formula, but I've taken 2 cities and 25-30 units, and only lost 9, which I think is enough to put someone into a vassaling mood.

Stalin is back down to pleased since I declared on his friend. I ask him for a dollar, but no dice. Shaka is still preparing, no idea when he'll declare (and no guarantee he's going for Stalin instead of me).

I could gift Stalin Wedge to get him to friendly. If that will prevent him from accepting Saladin as a vassal (and if at pleased he's likely to accept him as a vassal), then it sounds worth it. Anyone know how that works?

Next turnset, more war. We'll see what other wonders Saladin built.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Four More Wonders (Turns 344-358, Years 60 BC - 80 AD)

I decide to risk Stalin jumping in. Three reasons:

1. He has few troops near me, meaning it would be a few turns after declaring before he can actually strike.

Spoiler :

That's the middle city. The other two only have 4 troops each.

2. I whipped quite a bit, but not all the way into the ground. Most cities have recovered some by now. So there's more whips if I need them.

Spoiler :

3. Stalin's ratio with me is 0.7. Since 0.8 is where I usually dominate, he won't have much of a stack.

Also, a lot of AIs won't declare at pleased. There's a good chance that going from pleased to friendly wouldn't do anything anyway.

So, I cross my fingers and end the turn. No war horns, no one jumps in, and I keep conquering Saladin unhindered.

20 BC: Saladin completes The Parthenon. Yes, really.

Spoiler :

Wow. He doesn't even have marble. That's the equivalent of 12 longbows.

I take Mecca. Cost: Five catapults.

Spoiler :

Pyramids, Statue of Zeus, and Mausoleum of Mausollos. Taking Stalin's cities will be a disappointment after this.

I pick Police State for even more military.

Spoiler :

10 AD: Top 10 report:

Spoiler :

Saladin the Glorious is #1 in tech. So let this be a reminder: Tech + Wonders + No troops = Losing.

60 AD: Saladin strikes back. Here's my stack at Damascus:

Spoiler :

And his stack at Sugar:

Spoiler :

Now that's just silly. I'm surprised how quickly Saladin wilted. I'd expected more from Deity.

Two turns later, Damascus is bombarded down. (Sugar is just fine, of course).

Spoiler :

Only one wonder? Indeed, Mecca spoiled me, and I'm disappointed.

Damascus finally claims stone for me. And Wedge finally gets that cow (It was at 42% culture).

Saladin is down to 3 cities, and Machinery is back up to 11 turns. I don't think he'll get there before being conquered.

My stack is down to three catapults, but there's reinforcements in Gold, positioned to defend a potential Stalin invasion. They'll help with Najran, north of Damascus, then go north to Basra while my main stack goes east to the city south of Copper. This war, and Saladin's empire, should end next turnset.

Meanwhile, Shaka is still preparing for war. Apparently no one told him to whip catapults.

 

[Mylene]

Now that's just silly. I'm surprised how quickly Saladin wilted. I'd expected more from Deity.

You won't find real Deity challenge on Marathon, sorry.
It's all about the rapid speed on normal and maybe Epic.
Not sure i understand your position here, you know it is silly but keep playing those settings?

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

I'm actually thoroughly surprised that Saladin is folding this fast. Last Deity game wasn't like this at all, or maybe it was but I just didn't find out because I didn't attack my neighbors with catapults. I thought this was going to be a tough fight, with longbows and all.

Also, just because Saladin is silly doesn't mean the game is won.

 

[Keilah]

well apparently saladin is playing like a moron or things would be different. As you pointed out, even just building 12 longbows instead of the parthenon would have made a huge difference... if he'd cut TWO wonders he'd likely be bulletproof.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Yeah. That's why I play with AggAI on. It usually makes AIs actually put up a fight. We'll see how the rest of them go.

 

[Mylene]

Well, you said you expected more from Deity.
With the right settings, it's just Deity light. AGG AI usually makes it another step easier, cos they tech slower.
The mechanics to avoid DoW yourself are similiar, but they will jump on each other and waste lots of turns.
Not to mention that you can jump in and take advantage of that anytime.

You are stretching the circumstances so much, and then comment about the results. Iam just puzzled why, this is what you can expect.

 

[ahcos]

Hmm, maybe the game's not won, but after that war you've a very solid base for a victory. Unless on the other continent an AI is running away with the game, i'd say your chances to win here are more than decent. You should recover fast after the war with GLH and GLib, Pantheon and Mids. Direct path to Lib, followed by a Cuirassier rush ... yeah. Should be do-able.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Stop Yearning for Your Motherland (Turns 358-378, Years 80-280 AD)

There's a difference between winning at a difficulty level, and realizing the AIs aren't scary at that level. That's what this war with Saladin is doing for me. Let's dive in.

90 AD: Shaka declares on Stalin.

Spoiler :

That's the end of my worries about Saladin vassalling to him. Missed your chance, buddy.

I think about who to declare on. Shaka, to get Stalin back to friendly? Stalin, to grab more land? I let it sit for now.

150: Najran falls.

Spoiler :

Only costs 3 cats, even with the hills bonus. Longbows really aren't a big deal.

Comes with a Great General. At first I think, "What? This is a dinky city, not a powerhouse." But later this turnset, I get another GG and look at the city again. I know the shots are kind of busy, but it has 6 grass hills, a banana, a rice, a ton of river tiles and a ton of flat grass. If I let it dominate all the tiles, Najran is an amazing production city, both now and lategame when workshops eclipse hills. And it comes with a settled GG already. Najran will be my primary land military city.

Also, Baghdad is already up and running. That was pretty fast. It'll be a good city.

Spoiler :

220: Kufuh falls. I save a turn by bombarding, then attacking with melee units. Winds up being a bit more expensive than I'd expected, but I can afford to lose a few swords.

Spoiler :

Forgot the shot of the city, but it was nothing exciting.

And I have a small stack at Basra. Not enough to take the city this turn, but I figure, attack this turn, take a few longbows, then attack again next turn and take the city.

Spoiler :

It doesn't work. I only take 1 longbow, and stop after losing the cats, a couple swords and an axe.

But with just one city left, it's time to figure out what's next. My most pressing problem right now is techs. I need Code of Laws, Monotheism to get the courthouses quickly, Alphabet for spies, and Civil Service to farm all my land. Forges and the Heroic Epic would be nice, too. So I swap to Representation, and switch from hills to cottages and scientists.

Spoiler :

280: My stack finally arrives at Basra. They easily take the city. (I think it costs 3 cats and a sword).

Spoiler :

The only point of this city is wine, and that tile is already in Stalin's culture. Raze.

Why bother taking it in the first place? So all those cities I took earlier will stop yearning to rejoin their motherland. Because if civ taught me one thing, it's that the way to make people happy is destroying all their cities.

I save there before ending my turn. On my mind: Conquer Stalin, or peacefully tech?

Conquering might be overexpansion, but with Representation scientists and Currency to build wealth, I think each city adds to my research. Might be time to grab some more land.

On the other hand, I need a spy target and trade routes. Clearing your island is rarely a good idea before Astronomy. And since Shaka hates me, and I'll probably have to conquer him also.

I'm thinking to declare on Shaka, sending my stack to conquer whatever cities I can. That will get Stalin to friendly, so I can safely spy on him. Then get tech parity, vassal Stalin and eliminate Shaka before turning my attention to the other AIs.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Thanks for the posts guys. I'm glad you're enjoying the game, even if it's not the settings you normally play.

@ahcos I think it's a good position too. But it's not like I haven't made dumb moves from a good position before

 

[obsolete]

I'd expected more from Deity.

Looks like other's beat me already to the punchline.

You're really not playing close to deity here with your gimped alternate settings. It's taking away huge advantages the AI was designed to have when running on the expected defaults. There's another one you could have thrown in while you're at it... people used to turn off space-race because the AI's would still throw away thousands of hammers to build the pieces despite they would never be able to launch off the ground (was that one even ever fixed?)

This is not to say you're playing bad, though some of your thoughts on vassaling operations really raise a few eyebrows here, since some of the thoughts/suggestions you had were way off from how the mechanics work here.

 

[Keilah]

this is where someone who wanted to be useful would point out exactly what comments on vassaling were innacurate and what the correct mechanics are.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Helpful commenter: "Hey Rhino, if you want Deity AIs to provide more challenge, here's how I'd modify your settings so they play better and don't do silly things like wonder-whore or attack with 3 units. And since I know you prefer marathon speed for the pace of the game, here's how I'd modify the settings while keeping it marathon. By the way, you seem to have some misconceptions about how vassaling works, here are the real mechanics..."

Me: "Wow, thanks for the useful, constructive input. That will really help me out next game."

 

[Mylene]

Just wanted to say, i think you are doing a great jobs with your games Rhino.
I just fear you will rarely find the challenge you seek, if you do not drop down to Epic speed cos you are a very good player.
That would be my suggestion, i've read too many Marathon stories to know that the AI just isn't made for this speed.
Not even on Deity
Your posts are still a great addition thou ~~

 

[Seraiel]

Lol. You're not really expecting this will change how Obsolete thinks / writes? Really every comment I saw from him since I'm active here was inapproriate for not helping one bit but putting others down. If you really want to help him change and feel better, teach him that eating up oneself usually is less work for feeling better then eating up someone else, and even though it's the same thing, one does get hated and the other one sometimes even gets rewarded.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

@Mylene Thanks, I feel the love. Maybe I'll try Epic next game.

By the way, you said that AggAI makes the game easier. I read some exchanges on that but there never seemed to be a consensus. Could you elaborate? Because I really do use the setting to make the game harder, and make early attacks more likely to make up for no barbs.

I did my testing when I played Emperor or Immortal. One game, I was on an island with only Musa. Normally I'd be able to conquer him anytime I want, but with AggAI he actually put up a fight. That's when I switched to AggAI as my default setting. And that held up this game: Saladin had 15 troops in the first city I attacked and 10 in the second, which is a pretty good defense for a wonder whore.

 

[Mylene]

I think it makes it easier, because..
defending is not very hard, unless you don't have the most important ressources.
Take Shaka as an example, he rarely waits until Catapults. Usually he visits with bunches of Axes, Impis and Swords. You only need 1 unit (Axes ofc ~~) to stop him in a well defended city, no other tricks needed.

The agressive AIs (without the setting) are not smart, they will suicide their units without thinking twice.
Those are more likely to go into war mode even earlier now. Before they would be really dangerous (units that can do damage, unlike swords).
If you have no barbs on, you have no pressure with gathering your troops for defending.

The "normal" Ais can be modified to make it unlikely to attack you, via diplo.
But they might declare on anyone they do not like, after reaching critical mass (happens faster now with agressive AIs). For you, that makes them less dangerous.
Their teching rate drops down, and they present themselves as backstab target.

I might overlook something, but imo it makes the game easier more often than not