Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

[gringoesteban]

After getting overrun by Scythians in my first game, I started over and ignored history.... Obviously, not a historical approach.

Wow, maybe it's not an "historical" approach, but it certainly is unconventional and ingenious. RFRE purists might object that the marsh cities are supposed to be unconquerable so that they spawn hordes of barbarians in later years of the game, but as long as you put thought and effort into winning the game, and had fun in the meantime, then I'm all for it.

But nevertheless we should "fix" this loophole in future patches.

Pink, how about raising the defense value for marsh terrain to +999%? The Roman units cannot enter marsh terrain anyway, so this would not impact the game for non-creative types like me. Also, have each barbarian marsh city begin the game with a Wonder that conveys huge bombard defense to prevent someone from blasting the defenders with ballistae and catapults to soften them up prior to attacking via a road. (Whatever conveys bombard defense should be a Wonder, because if it is a normal improvement, it could theoretically be destroyed. Alternatively, if there is a way to have terrain confer bombard defense value, then raise marsh squares to the max).

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

Geesh, that was some sneaky thinking, edboltz.

 

[edboltz]

Another plug for this loop hole would be to surround the barbarian cities with terrain that is impassable to Romans so that you can't get a road in.

Perhaps the barbarian "cities" graphic could be 9 squares with a tiny tent or longhouse for each, representing that nomads didn't really have cities, but population areas. The "city" for Civ purposes would be in the center and wouldn't change with size, improvements, etc.

 

[gringoesteban]

Yeah, good idea. That's probably easier and better than my suggestion. As long as the cities are not placed so closely together that the Player cannot move units north, although I don't know why anybody would want to since there is nothing up there....

 

[loki1232]

Randy's walkthrough? Where?

-Do you think that latifundia could also increase production a bit?

 

[loki1232]

A fix for the samnite problem would be for 1 square of the the peninsula to be under no one's control, and have a barbarian encampment there which would send out samnites. Either the Romans could destroy it with an army, or culture assimilate it. (you could put it mountain to force Rome to use culture)

 

[minke]

So your saying if you build a road into their cities, they become passable suddenly....

Looks like I better play this .9 version soon b4 Pink fixes the loophole

 

[loki1232]

Yeah--you all congratulate edbolts on his ingenuity, then stop his plans. It's funny, but I see the point.

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

Randy's walkthrough? Where?

I wrote a quick walkthrough for an older version (somewhere around v .8) of RFRE. Not sure how much of it still applies to the latest update of RFRE. I didn't release it, though.

I'll probably update it once Pink releases a more "stable" (e.g. not likely to be changed much) version... maybe version 1.0?

 

[pinktilapia]

@Edboltz
How did you dare . I actually knew that connecting marshes cities with roads would make them conquerable, just hoped nobody would be tricky enough to try that. Initially, I didn't make each tiles around a city impassable to wheeled units because barbarian HN units were wheeled too! The reason for that was that they had to stay on their side of the map (separated by the Pripet marshes). But now, since I added a string of impassable swamps there, I can unwheel them and get this protective belt around cities or even make all barbarian lands impassable to Rome (that would be a flat uggly terrain, that no player would never see anyway). Thanks for rising the point and enjoy that gap as long as you can !

Beware! Hannibal's 'barking' elephants !

@Gringo
Thanks for keeping playing to RFRE, although your have been really unlucky with it. I sincerely hope you can finish your game without a crash.
- Tuning the initial game settings is really hard, too easy for some, too hard for others. There are two added advantages for Rome which we need to decide about: the spawning rate of Mare Nostrum & the blitz ability of the consular legion. I need feedback from everyone on these two. The other added advantage for Rome should stay (SPQR wonder, better Miles Socius, consular legion with more HP, better Corvus, etc). Pfuui, there was a lot of positive changes for Rome in this version
- Most of the invisible units are gone, Gringo! Or more exactly, the late barbarian H/N units are no longer invisble, at the exception of the Pictii. Hope is that it will help in speeding up the game during the great invasions. You thus don't need that detect invisibility for 'sub-standard' troops. If you want to see the Pictii, bring some Sarmatian cavalry there!
- The Crux Iese (crucifixation of the Christ) is the wonder needed in order to build the bible. It expires with a Roman Tech (Philosopher on the Throne) by 200AC. It needs to expire because it has an unhappiness effect on the population (especially in Jerusalem, to reflect the Jewish unrest that took place around 0AC). But that give you 200 years to take Jerusalem! Here is what I am going to do, I will let the AI a chance to build the wonder itself, so in the case you miss it, you can still capture Jerusalem and proceed with writting the Bible.
- Extra 50 turns? The game is already so long Let's talk about it and decide.

@Loki
Representing the samnites by a barbarian settlement would be too simple for Rome (organize a few great games in nearby cities, and *magic* you got them shattered!). Plus, they are already barbarians on the map, in the deserts of Africa and Arabia, waging war with Carthage, Egypt and Parthia!

@Randy
There not so many changes with the new version, a good...uh... part of the walkthrough is still completely relevant. It is just about update, really

 

[King Coltrane]

hey pink, i just got through a .85 game and stopped around 250 ad as i was laggin behind in techs and both germania and the parthians HAPPENED to simultaneously declare war on me. anyway, i like what im reading so far for .9. Kudos to edboltz!
real quick, lemme explain my samnites idea to everyone. the point is that as has been said, Sulla finally subdued them well after 280 BC, so they should be a well entrenched force an dbe strong until that time. also, if left unchecked, the revolted slaves can becoma a HUGE problem, so you must maintain a garrison to protect against this, to reflect history as well as have fun gameplay. in addition, a united italy would SUCK as far as gameplay because it would be FAR too easy in this version. honestly, if any change was to be made, i would say start with only roma and work your way up the conquest ladder.

@pink, just checking, what do miles socii upgrade to? if its marian legion, thats aproblem because nothing will be drafted for a long time, this is a big point so tell me whats up with that. also, mare nostrum @ 4 turns should be ok i think.
also, take away blitz, its too much i think

 

[Gunner]

I would definetly not favor adding 50 more turns. The game really does take forever as it is, more are not really needed.

A balance with the turns needs to, and seems to have been, reached. Some people are ahead of historical time by 200AD while others are behind. Its impossible to make it exactly perfect for each person without messing someone else up.

 

[Hrafnkell]

Killing a few stray unrepentant Samnites is not the same as a unified Samnite state hostile to Rome, which did not exist. Nor should Rome have to declare war on the Greeks to destroy the Samnites, who had no ties AT ALL to the Greeks - remember, Tarentum remained carefully neutral during the Samnite Wars.

Remember to that no Roman ally - including Samnium - deviated from their Roman alliance during the Pyrrhic War. In fact, at Asculum, Pyrrhus' baggage train was looted by the Samnites. The only allies he got from that quarter were isolated groups - not the Samnite nation, which was allied with Rome. The fact that Sulla had to deal with the Samnites 200 years later has nothing to do with a Greek-allied hostile Samnite state in 275. Are you expecting me to believe that the map, as is, accurately reflects Italy during Sulla's day? There was no Samnite nation hostile to Rome in Sulla's day, just an area where trouble continued to flare up. There is a big difference. Barbarian camps would more accurately reflect the historical state of affairs in Samnium.

I disagree that a united Italy makes Rome too powerful. In my editor, I made Bovianum Roman controlled and took the Samnite irritant out of the game and the scenario plays just swimmingly and so far is following a more historical course than with it.

But each to his own. That is what the editor is for.

 

[pinktilapia]

@Coltrane
You disappointing weakling: get back and beat that pitiful barbarian alliance! It is in fact a rather nice 'real' crisis of the 3rd century you got there
You are right for the drafting of units, there is like a gap between Marius and the Imperial era with no unit to draft (but can't you still draft Miles Socius after Marius actually?)

@Gunner
Striking a balanced version is indeed hard.

@Hrafnkell
Of course you can modify your own version! I am just trying to reach a concession acceptable/playable for all players for the 'official' version. The Samnites are indeed a thorn in your side, so taking them out might be a 'good' thing for the fun at least. It's like slave-unrests (pollution), nobody would miss that I am sure. The problem if we do so and remove all the annoying/non-fun aspects one by one, the game will just be too easy at the end. I understand anyway that your main reason behind this argument on the Samnites is not game balance or fun but history. I am afraid Bovianum will remain hostile for the time being, but it could be given to another Greek faction, suggestion?BTW give me feedback on the consular's legions blitz and spawning rate of Mare Nostrum once you have played through the early game, I need to make a final tuning

 

[Asclepius]

There are two added advantages for Rome which we need to decide about: the spawning rate of Mare Nostrum & the blitz ability of the consular legion. I need feedback from everyone on these two.

Well my vote is for a slower spawn rate for the Corvus, say 1 in 4 turns, but keep the blitz ability for the early army. Even defeating Pyrrhus would be difficult without blitz.

Extra 50 turns? The game is already so long Let's talk about it and decide.

God, no. Don't make it any longer! This game already takes a month to complete...has anyone actually finished a game yet!?

 

[Taijian]

First of all: Thank you for this great scenario!

- Tuning the initial game settings is really hard, too easy for some, too hard for others. There are two added advantages for Rome which we need to decide about: the spawning rate of Mare Nostrum & the blitz ability of the consular legion. I need feedback from everyone on these two. The other added advantage for Rome should stay (SPQR wonder, better Miles Socius, consular legion with more HP, better Corvus, etc). Pfuui, there was a lot of positive changes for Rome in this version

I'd say keep the blitz for the consular army. I am one of those players who find themselves being a little slow conquering the empire, so I think Rome needs that extra help! Keeping up with the historical rate of expansion is almost impossible as it is!

- Extra 50 turns? The game is already so long Let's talk about it and decide.

I'd favor some more turns, as I said, I too find it hard to keep up with my historical couterparts in expansion rate...

 

[gringoesteban]

I continued my v0.9 last night and eliminated several more opponents by the mid 200's AC. Therefore, I changed my mind about adding fifty turns to the game. That would be too many. However, I still feel that we should add 25 more turns (and zero years) to RFRE prior to Crisis of the Third Century. Even with those extra 25 turns, which I already added to my modified BIQ, there is absolutely no way any Player could achieve Rome's historical expansion rate. However, it might be possible to reach the furthest limits of Rome's historical empire in RFRE by the late third century AD if we add these 25 extra turns.

Changing topics, the Crisis of the Third Century ("C3C") in v0.9 is way too easy. One of my previous posts regarding v0.6x complained that C3C was extremely tough, and the C3C impact was therefore toned down at my urging. However, now the pendulum has swung too far the other way. The C3C Wonder should make four (4) people unhappy, not three like it does in v0.9. I cranked up my luxury rate and rode out the C3C with few problems, only minor starvation, and a fully acceptable hit to my Treasury. The Wonder (Opus Imp Soldati?) that cancels out the C3C Wonder should take longer to build. In v0.9, the city of Rome can crank it out in like three turns. Maybe doubling the shield cost would be appropriate. With the current settings, the Player only needs to suffer through several turns with no Praetor and no Dioces and lots of unhappy people.

 

[edboltz]

I congratulate everyone, particularly pinktilapia, who have worked so hard on this scenario, which really pushes the envelope in an game that is sorely missing events. The use of the ticking chronicle clock goes farther than any other scenario I've played to replicating the time events that made Civ II Scenarios so great. (Still no real way to replicate event triggers such as the capture of Carthage, etc.) Hopefully this omission from Civ III will not be repeated in Civ IV.

The one problem, however, is that RFRE seems really focus on making a successful game be a reproduction of history, rather than letting the player try to depart and try to make his own path. Obviously, the designers can't predict every path where a player might try to diverge from history, but some alternatives should be available.


P.S. Is there a point to the Hannibal, Vercintogorix (sp?), etc. units? They've always just been that last pathetic unit in a capital, occassionally delaying conquest by a turn.

 

[edboltz]

Another option for minimizing the Germans and Scythians, albeit much slower, is to bombard the tar out of their cities. With no units, few buildings and low population, the AI will trade them (often several) for peace after 10 turns of wars.

Another reason to surround them with impassable terrain if the goal is to maintain the barbarians civs at all cost.

Plus: Coastal Barbarian cities would need impassable ocean squares to keep me from bombarding them with ships.

I will always try to earn the title "Scythicus". It was also fun to sail the Caspian Sea.

 

[Asclepius]

BTW, the Hanging Gardens should translate as "Hortus pensilis".

I believe "Topiariae pendentes" is closer to "dangling gardening"! Maybe the Roman equivalent of landscape gardening whilst abseiling...?