RLC#1. Suryavarman of Khmer.

[learner gamer]

Two other thoughts to throw into the mix:

(i) If you can capture those cows on a border pop from 3N of rice, I don’t see Gilgamesh settling in that area any time soon. The cows apart, the area’s devoid of food. The only exception as far as I can see would be if there was some high value strategic resource in the vicinity (which I understand the AI can see but the human can’t) that makes competing for the cows worthwhile. EDIT: I guess the AI could settle on the rice to try and nab stone and cows...but how likely is that?

(ii) As you’ve already made clear, you’re struggling for commerce. IMHIO, that means you want to be working as many riverside FPs and riverside grassland tiles as possible (in addition to running a few science specialists). How many riverside tiles lie in the vicinity of city #4 as dotmapped?

Simply put, IMHO, city #4 merely adds to your current problem (lack of commerce) and potentially creates another (border conflict). And for what? Blocking off a rather mediocre wine site (which you can likely rush a settler to if a fogbuster spots Gilgamesh en route). Perhaps I'm missing something but, IMHO, that’s not a great return for the hammers you’ve invested in the settler.

Be interesting to know the thoughts of others.

 

[vranasm]

pfft in my shadow I claimed whole jungled peninsula north east after stone and of course the city 4 and of course north west from the city of rice, fish, clams.

don't be passive on Monarch, just the sheer number of cities and number of defenders for each city will make your power big enough to stop AI's having ideas...

otoh you will surely heavily crash your eco ;-), but to me it's fun...not necessarily best finish date, but fun

 

[learner gamer]

It’s not a question of playing passively....it’s a question of playing smartly.

I’ve no doubt it’s possible to settle city #4 as dotmapped and potentially keep it. However, I use the word potentially deliberately, because IMHO, you’re logic fails here:

don't be passive on Monarch, just the sheer number of cities and number of defenders for each city will make your power big enough to stop AI's having ideas...

You see, previous posts (and indeed whole threads) have illustrated all too clearly that power matters rather little when it comes to deterring wars. Instead, they make it very clear that diplo is often your best weapon if you wish to avoid conflict...precisely the diplo that will suffer a hit as a result of close border tension. IMHO, it’s simply a question of avoiding / minimising that diplo hit whilst (i) there’s an awful lot of good land to settle (as you note) and (ii) Gilgamesh has his UU (although this is admittedly far less of an issue with Sury having axes).

To put it another way, as I understand the code, the only way to use power to deter a Gilgamesh DoW would be for @pigswill to keep a power ratio of at least 1.2 times Gilgamesh’s power level. However, Gilgamesh is a 30% unit prob builder...and so will keep building units to eat into the advantage created by Sury settling more cities and having a garrison in those cities.

To illustrate using a very simple example, assume Sury settles 8 cities and Gilgamesh 5 (ie. @pigswill settles most of the remaining sites and Gilgamesh adds marginally to his current city count). Assuming both produce units having the same power, Sury will have a power ratio of 1.6 and Gilgamesh will not DoW under iMaxWarNearbyPowerRatio, thanks purely to garrisoned units. At this point however, it would only take Gilgamesh to produce two more units for the power ratio to drop to below 1.2 and contemplate an attack under iMaxWarNearbyPowerRatio. In the limit, the only way for Sury to be guaranteed that Gilgamesh doesn’t DoW when nearby is to keep building units (or other features like walls) at a rate of 1.2*0.3* # cities settled by Gilgamesh / # cities settled by Sury.

A simple spreadsheet can show the numbers in this limiting case very easily...which will illustrate for instance that if Sury settles 8 cities and Gilgamesh 5, then Sury’s going to have to continue building units approximately 23% of the time (assuming Gilgamesh keeps building at 30%) to deter an attack based on a power comparison. In other words, approximately 2 in 8 cities are going to have to be dedicated to pumping out units just to keep Sury’s power ratio high enough to deter Gilgamesh from attacking. Now my guess is that’s a fair few units – and maintenance. Don’t get me wrong BTW – it’s doable as you point out....it depends on how many units @pigswill wants to build (and pay for...and there’s a link here to how @pigswill’s dotmapped the land) to deter an attack. If @pigswill settles this aggressively, the best recommendation I can perhaps give is to focus EP on Gilgamesh to ensure that Gilgamesh’s demographics remain visible (which they aren’t in the current save).

And all this of course takes no account of the entirely random chance of a DoW allowed for in the code. Just because you managed to achieve a certain feat in your shadow @vranasm doesn’t mean it’s generally replicable in all games....as we both know all too well, the all pervasiveness of the RNG in Civ 4 can see to that.

 

[vranasm]

hmm you're right that to meet the ratios at highest levels is tough, what I found lately on Monarch- I can have double the number of cities of biggest AI if I have land very easily.

I generally on Monarch- don't bother with diplomacy at all. It is bad practice, but staying out of religion and ignoring really annoying demands and accepting the reasonable ones usually means no DoW...

and since AI's don't tend to unit spam I had a lot of game where most AI's I have like 1.2-1.6 power ratio anyway...only 1-2 have like 0.7, gives you some figure how "big" army they field if you imagine i have 10 military units in 10 cities...

 

[pigswill]

This is getting a bit technical .

Some other considerations.
i) Is power based solely on number of units or does it include other factors such as land, population and military techs?

ii) Its fairly standard AI behaviour (I suspect its coded somewhere) for the AI to use half its units for garrison duties and the other half for a stack. Human players don't tend to do this. With equal power Gil could have something like 10 archers, 5 vultures and 5 swords while Sury would have 4 warriors, 4 archers, 10 axes and 2 spears. Sury would probably have spear and 2-3 axes down south on the Celtic border and a spear+7-8 axes up north. A stack of 5 vultures+5 swords attacking a city with 7+ axes with city defences would probably lose.

iii) Not expanding means delaying the inevitable border friction until Gil heads south. Maybe during this time OB and trades, maybe even civix and religion could push Gil up to pleased, maybe he would still Dow with an advantage in units and production.

 

[learner gamer]

hmm you're right that to meet the ratios at highest levels is tough, what I found lately on Monarch- I can have double the number of cities of biggest AI if I have land very easily.

I generally on Monarch- don't bother with diplomacy at all. It is bad practice, but staying out of religion and ignoring really annoying demands and accepting the reasonable ones usually means no DoW...

and since AI's don't tend to unit spam I had a lot of game where most AI's I have like 1.2-1.6 power ratio anyway...only 1-2 have like 0.7, gives you some figure how "big" army they field if you imagine i have 10 military units in 10 cities...

I agree with this wholeheartedly...we are after all only playing monarch – not emperor or higher. Perhaps I’m thinking rather more of what happens on emperor / immortal.....but that’s why I used figures to illustrate the issue. You’re factually right V: if @pigswill RExxes really hard, then it’s going to provide an opportunity to use garrison forces to deter a Gilgamesh DoW.

However, the points I’m hoping @pigswill picks up on are:

(i) Sury will need to continue building units to deter an attack based on power; and

(ii) Most importantly, @pigswill will need to find a way to pay for those units...this is the “link to the dotmap” I was referring to earlier. You see, my guess is that you (a) settled the bureau site 1N of rice (b) cottage spammed and (c) may even - if this game is any guide - have gotten a late mids for rep boosted specialists. However, @pigswill hasn’t settled 1N or 2N of the rice for a bureau site and is talking of getting to monarchy for HR. Now perhaps I’m over-estimating unit maintenance, but IMHO, a little more thought needs to be given to generating commerce / beakers to pay for units built to continue to deter a Gilgamesh DoW, assuming city #4 is settled as dotmapped.

i) Is power based solely on number of units or does it include other factors such as land, population and military techs?

Power is a composite rating of the factors you mentioned. If you’d rather avoid the technicalities, an easier option would be simply to focus your EP on Gilgamesh sufficiently to reveal his power graph (which is invisible at the mo&#8217. Just make sure your graph looks 20% bigger than his and your power (=soldier) rating will be high enough to deter an attack based on a comparison of power ratings. However, as I understand it, he may still DoW you for other reasons, including a random roll of the RNG.

ii) Its fairly standard AI behaviour (I suspect its coded somewhere) for the AI to use half its units for garrison duties and the other half for a stack. Human players don't tend to do this. With equal power Gil could have something like 10 archers, 5 vultures and 5 swords while Sury would have 4 warriors, 4 archers, 10 axes and 2 spears. Sury would probably have spear and 2-3 axes down south on the Celtic border and a spear+7-8 axes up north. A stack of 5 vultures+5 swords attacking a city with 7+ axes with city defences would probably lose.

Agreed, especially if you build a wall in the city. IMHO, the more relevant question though is: how easily can you pay for those garrsion units?

iii) Not expanding means delaying the inevitable border friction until Gil heads south. Maybe during this time OB and trades, maybe even civix and religion could push Gil up to pleased, maybe he would still Dow with an advantage in units and production.

More importantly, my point is that in either case, by this time you’ll presumably have developed your empire and can easily afford the units you need to fend off an attack. Of course, @vranasm’s right: we are only on monarch...so feel free to settle aggressively if you wish. Ultimately, you have to play your game your way.

 

[vranasm]

well i really settled my city 2 1NW of rice (don't ask me why...at that point it looked like good solution until we analyzed it properly) and cottaged spam the flood plains (I settled there city 3 a bit north east)

I actually delayed a bit the north expansion being it on monarch and gilgamesh behind jungle.

but run only workers/settlers (couple military units for MP duty) for long time with exception of library and granary capital and granary in cities until they grew a bit to build another bunch of workers, settlers.

 

[learner gamer]

well i really settled my city 2 1NW of rice (don't ask me why...at that point it looked like good solution until we analyzed it properly) and cottaged spam the flood plains (I settled there city 3 a bit north east)

And you campaigned so hard for 1N of rice! Sorry my friend, but I just found that so funny.

EDIT: Out of curio, what made you change....please feel free to spoiler if you prefer to avoid impacting @pigswill's game. I ask because it's directly relevant to the three questions I asked earlier in the thread.

 

[vranasm]

And you campaigned so hard for 1N of rice! Sorry my friend, but I just found that so funny.

EDIT: Out of curio, what made you change....please feel free to spoiler if you prefer to avoid impacting @pigswill's game. I ask because it's directly relevant to the three questions I asked earlier in the thread.

most probably timing of cultural borders was different. I think the initial idea of city 2 was working oasis tile asap (like T0 of settling) and I think I didn't have borders there yet from capital.

maybe some room for another city in flood plains...those 2 hills were considered as sufficient.

but I think 1N of rice is really better

edit:

AAAAA correction...I settled 1W of rice to get oasis first ring... now that makes more sense to me what I did there ;-)

 

[pigswill]

Played loads of turns up to 700bc. vranasm and LG seemed to be having so much fun that I thought I'd let them get on with it. The nice thing about having polarised advice is that you're free to do whatever you like and still have someone else to blame .

1280bc Settle Angkor Wat (AW) in exactly the spot LG recommended against, 1N of northern cows, overlapping with Gil. Opened borders with Gil to prove we're friendly : 'we come in peace, shoot to kill' etc.

1160. Shaka's turn to prove his friendly intentions by opening up his borders, accepted .

1120. Nagra Jayasri (NJ) settled on eastern grasslands surrounded by floodplains. Now he can't pinch that spot we open borders with Brennus , friendly intent etc etc . Also gives us a chance to look around Celtia.

1080. Time for Brennus to make a friendly gesture, he completes the Great Wall to keep us barbarians out.

925bc. Remember the long discussions about the city 1N of the rice? Rajavihari is settled 2N of rice.

825bc Judaism spreads to Yas but we are unmoved and remain agnostic. Our brave little fishing boat has been slowly pottering along the north west coast.
What's this? A Buddhist?

Our workers have been busy building roads and cottages, our new cities have been whipping granaries and libraries. These efforts are not totally in vain:

750bc Alphabet>myst.

725bc Time to trade some techs:

700bc After that short spell of trading the tech screen looks something like:

And we have an interesting deal open to us:

Shall we go ballistic?

State of the union (complete with lots of screenshots) to follow in the next 24 hours.

 

[pigswill]

The World in 700bc - a Khmer Perspective.

The Known World

Spoiler :

Did a reasonable job of blocking Brennus to the south east. We've got Gil to the north who may be able to expand westwards into the jungle. Shaka's at the far end of this rather large peninsula and heading east rapidly. We've then got Charlemagne aka Chuck on a seperate island beyond Shaka. I didn't notice the other civ south of Chuck until I took the culture screenshot, my best guess is Mao but I'll send heroic WB down to have a look. We're still missing another civ altogether at the moment.

Charts:

Spoiler :

We seem to have overtaken Gil for the moment, must be all the land we've acquired. Looks like Shaka's got into some serious unit spamming however.

Now that's a major surprise. We seem to be doing really quite well overall.

The Accounts:

Spoiler :

Its just as well we're leading on GNP because the empire's getting expensive. On the other hand there are more cottages to be built so commerce should get slowly better.

Our beloved homeland:

Spoiler :

As you can see Brennus is going nowhere slowly though he has just got to sailing and could pinch horse island. I'd like to settle horse island, mainly because its an overseas trade destination for slightly better traderoutes, if we get it its best to let it grow away, maybe build/whip Moia there.

Not a perfect screenshot I'm afraid. AW is indeed encroaching on Sumerian Kish. On the other hand Gil's west most city is trying to pinch our cows with no consideration at all for border tension so it kind of balances out. A settler has just arrived in the north east spot, that's our only source of iron so I'd quite like to keep it.

 

[vranasm]

btw settling that horses+clam island should be on your list since it will bump your commerce output.

 

[Kwibuss]

It's unlikely you can hold on to the cows with Angkor Thom since Gilgamesh settled his city right next to it.
Must have some serious culture output to keep it.

 

[pigswill]

I agree that we're likely to lose the cows, AT has a library already but I don't expect there'll be any new culture there for a while. At least AT has 2-3 other food sources (and I didn't pasture the cows). On the other hand when we go to war with Gil we'll get the cows back early on (if only because that city is blocking trade routes to the rest of the world).

 

[Killroyan]

Poor Brennus You are in a good shape. Horse Island is a good city to be honest. Horses/fur/clams/increased trade routes/hill. Maoi here we come.

 

[pigswill]

Three more sites to be settled in the near future and that'll be the end of peaceful rex. So from now on the gloves come off .

Gil is an obvious early target. Brennus would certainly become more attractive (as a target that is) if he were to complete Pyramids and/or Temple of Solomon.

The trickier question is what to use. Elepults is very tempting (and would certainly be Sury flavoured) though it does mean HbR, Maths, Construction, Currency as the next bunch of techs. This may or may not nerf the chances of getting Glib but them's the choices you have to make.

If we don't go elepults then we're looking towards the renaissance: cuirassiers or cannon. The economy would be in a stronger shape and we may be able to clear our island completely in one long series of wars but that would obviously start quite a bit later.

I'm tempted to go ballistic (ballista elephants+cats, geddit sad).

 

[learner gamer]

Decisions, decisions.....

IMHO, your main obstacles going elepults (which I’d favour) are likely to be:

(i) happy cap / whip anger – monarchy (and HR) will need to be traded for (along with ivory); and
(ii) risk of a backstab (since you’re surrounded by warmongers).

Don’t see the attraction of The GL (no marble, not industrious, although you do have lots of trees)...but if history repeats, I expect you’ll now make a run at it. IMHO, you have two candidates for the Moai...the island city or NJ on the east coast.

Worthwhile trading pottery for archery with Brennus?

 

[pigswill]

I do like the idea of elepults. Obviously dependent on Chuck keeping up his side of the deal. Its hard to believe but I think its unlikely I'll be going for Glib for the reasons you mentioned but if I was taking the long haul to lib>miltech it would have been useful.

I'm not too worried about the happy cap if I'm going ballistic because I'll probably throw in lots of double whips to knocks out the eles and cats quickly.

What does concern me more is the economy. I don't think I'll end up on strike but relying on libraries at 90-100% cash will slow research to a crawl. I'm wondering if I should go for currency before maths>const>HbR. If I get 9 cities currency will bring in 18gpt just through trade routes and building wealth with science slider is more efficient than just building research because of the library boost. On the other hand currency will take some turns to research and it's debatable if the increased revenue would compensate for diverted research (it will do eventually but its a return on capital issue).

Pottery>archery is probably worth doing. Guess I'll just have to wait for someone to build ToA and/or Oracle before religious techs appear as trade items.

 

[vranasm]

In the long haul thingy (no classic era warfare)

you can think about going drama->music...
very unconventional since literature doesn't offer just TGL, but offers NE and HE too...
the cost of drama is though ~ as poly+lit (I suppose you already have myst so won't add it there)

if you want to go with elepults...then tech HBR now and cross fingers to get math from it.

edit:

why I got the wrong idea you went through aesthetics?? maybe that lib->miltech thingy confused me!

 

[shadojack]

I'm not sure if this file can be opened by all, I use the BUG mod. Since the game has progressed close to this point I thought I would post this for comments.