RLC#4 Sitting Bull.

[pigswill]

Another ten days have passed. Time for an update if anyone's still interested. Its been a farily short round up to 100bc, mainly about tech trading.

475bc.Trade aesthetics to Zara for alphabet. Swop research to currency.

450. Trade alphabet to Fred for IW and hunting (I'll probably get told off for wasting trade slots on cheap techs).

400. Trade aesthetics to Fred for poly, sailing and archery.

350. Isabella spreads Buddhism to Crazy Horse.

300. Zara beats me to elephant site.

200. Zara completes Parthenon!

150. Zara captures north east barb city between us and Fred.

100. Currency is in. Trade currency to Fred for maths and masonry. Start on drama.



We have a settler hanging around as we lost the ivory site. I'm wondering about putting a city here:

No (visible) resources but five riverside tiles and five grass hills probably makes it a viable production site (and if we don't settle it then Zara will).

There's another space in the north west which grabs a couple of resources but overlaps with Zara and its a bit watery:


We've built another two workers bringing us up to 5. Cities are currently building wealth racing towards drama/med in 6 turns hoping that our GS in 6 turns will be able to get philosophy first. Confu went in 525bc so its not guaranteed for sure.

Settling another city would surely dampen our research rate in the short term but maybe getting the site first is worth gambling an extra turn on philosophy.

We have a workboat exploring the south coast, hoping to open up better trade routes.

We've got six rivals and we've only met four so far. Its possible they're the other side of Toku but as its a fractal map the two missing AIs are probably on another landmass.

Overall we're not exactly powering ahead but we're not yet ridiculously behind. Its likely shaping up to a pretty stand lib>miltrad cuirassier rush type thing. Philosophical should help but not so sure about protective (though a few CG3 LBs certainly help defend against a flank attack).

I should probably switch to Buddhism. I was waiting for Isabella to make a request but it may be more useful to acquire diplo points with Zara sooner than later.

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

I am still interested. I will look it over when I get a chance, thanks for posting.

 

[yena]

lurk mode off: I'm still reading this, so keep the reports coming. Thanks for the update

 

[Smilingrogue]

@ Pigswill

Still watching with interest. Thank you for the update.

This map is starting to look scary. A Buddhist love fest with Tokugawa excluded and Zara with a tonne of land. Could be painful to go the military route as you will probably have to slog through a lot. Not to mention both Izzy and Zara love Theocracy, so you can expect AP shenanigans on this continent. A cheese AP win? A space victory? A culture victory? Or will Cuirassiers Pigs proudly fly in defiance of the huge Ethiopian empire?

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

Settling another city would surely dampen our research rate in the short term but maybe getting the site first is worth gambling an extra turn on philosophy.

I should probably switch to Buddhism. I was waiting for Isabella to make a request but it may be more useful to acquire diplo points with Zara sooner than later.

You can always have your settler hang out where you want a city but wait to settle until you have Philosophy or you see Zara's settling party approaching. Might as well do that, might save you a turn. Actually, you don't need to wait until Philosophy is done, just until the extra maintenance costs won't force you to lower the slider for the remainder of the tech.

Adopting Buddhism is a god call [leaving typo in for appropriateness], after you found Taoism of course. Stretch arms for group hug.

 

[pomthom]

Yep still following this with interest! (from France, this is my first post)

A cheese AP win? A space victory? A culture victory? Or will Cuirassiers Pigs proudly fly in defiance of the huge Ethiopian empire?

Space victory
I'm certainly not a reference in Civ4 (I'm barely starting to win regularly at Monarch diff) but I don't really see how you can win space race if you don't expand your empire (and that means war in this case obviously): 6/7 cities alone will not give you the necessary commerce to keep up the tech pace IMO.

If you want to go that way, a decent amount of war is inevitable (although should be pretty tough diplomatically with all this buddhism and all... ). Maybe take over Germany?? I think that's what I would go for in any case.

Cultural vicotry
Never won one of those so I won't comment much, but SB doesn't seem to be the perfect leader for such ambition?

Diplo victory
Seems reasonable, but won't know for sure until you've met everyone. Still you should try and keep good diplomatic relationships with your buddhist love community, and see what happens when the lay of the land is clearer and if there are some religious changes.

Well, that was my first post. Pretty obvious statements I guess, but I suppose the first time always sucks

 

[pigswill]

Thanks for the replies and comments. Pomthom: your first post was a lot more substantive than my first post (also in an ALC, a few years ago now).

Diplo sounds challenging as confu got founded somewhere else in 500bc so expect a confu love-in somewhere on the map. There's enough religions for culture and philosophical/protective is a decent combination for culture victory but not really set up for wonderspam and not sure if I've got three obviously legendary sites.

War of some kind seems the most obvious approach and Fred a fairly obvious first target. Maybe there'll be an option for a Buddhist dogpile on Toku at some point.

I've played a few turns and managed Drama>Philo>Taoism, heading for music but I'll play a few more turns (at some point....) before my next proper update.

 

[pigswill]

After another lengthy delay (I could say RL but its 99% laziness ) another small update, all the way up to 400ad!

Turn based report bit.

100bc. Revolt anarchically to Buddhism.

75bc. Black Dog is founded overlooking a picturesque river valley.

50bc Hinduism spreads to Black Dog .



25bc. A time of wonders. Fred completes a statue of Zeus and Hanging Gardens are built overseas. A Great Prophet is born in Spain!

1ad Christianity founded. (How many times does this happen in 1ad in civ?). Isabella adopts theocracy. Somewhat thematically trade fish to Isabella for wine.
Less thematically make a deal with Zara:



Happy times.

50ad. Drama>meditation confused.

75ad. Med>priesthood. Bulb philosophy . Found Taoism in Rough Diamond.

100ad. PH>music.
Lose gems to Ethiopian culture .
With philosophy bulb done stop building wealth and start building buildings and units.

125. Start culture war in Rough Diamond: whip theatre.

200. Culture war continues: whip library in Rough Diamond.

225 Colossus bidl.

275. Zara completes MoM and doesn't make any demands. Isabella builds Great Library and becomes demanding:



In the interests of peace, Buddhist cooperation and survival I accept this outrageous demand (but may not forget it).

325. Isabella adopts vassalage.

400. Music is in. Amazingly enough I get the GA. Make a couple of deals: drama to Fred for mono+50g followed by drama+50g to Zara for monarchy.
Settle our seventh city on the Bay of Pigs:




Celebrate with an 8 turn Golden Age.

 

[Smilingrogue]

Theo and Vassalage? Is Izzy in war mode? She's pretty easy to get along with once at Pleased, but she can plot war at Pleased and since no one expects the Spanish Inquisition, you might want to make sure the pigpen is secure.

 

[pomthom]

You need a good unit to spam. Freddy will be best crushed sooner than later.

Can you get some ivory from Zara?

 

[pigswill]

Been a while since I had a look at this. So many distractions. Haven't played any more turns yet, still pondering which way to go.


This is the tech situation:


Farly limited trade options at the moment:


We've just traded drama to Zara and Fred so music doesn't show up as a trade item this turn.

In terms of diplomacy it looks like this at the moment:


Toku is obviously a lost cause. Isabella and Zara are both running their favoured theocracy so if I can pick up theology (maybe not until after AP but we'll see) and switch I could get them up to friendly.

Despite militaristic civics Isabella's not wheoorn at the moment (neither are Zara or Fred). Toku is in active war mode but he'd have to go through Fred and Zara to get to us so that's not a problem for now.

Overall I'm still thinking about the standard cuirassier rush, Fred being the obvious target followed by Toku. There's still col, CS, paper, education, nat and lib to plough through (as well as hbr) so that's not going to be in the very near future.

We do have a golden age in the very near future however which would be a good chance to swop civics:



HR is an obvious move for happiness. If I swop to pacifism for 8 turns I should be able to squeeze out 2 GS, I don't have CoL for caste so I'm not going to be starving cities to run multiple specialists. Should I delay GA until CoL I wonder? My inclination is not to do so. I'd like to get cities growing as they're still small and well below happy/health caps. I'm likely to get CoL before the GA runs out and I will have a chance for a second free civic swop but we'll have another look at the time.

Copper to Zara for ivory is a good deal. I don't need copper and maybe ivory will let me prebuild some wellies (assuming I pick up hbr and construction in trade), free happiness if of course always good.

 

[Smilingrogue]

Odd choice to not have adopted HR and OR for so long. It's generally better to just adopt them early on and eat the one turn of anarchy as they are very useful Civics. I think you should wait for CoL before firing off a Golden Age. You never know when you will get another shot at a Golden Age, better maximise the gains.

 

[pomthom]

Odd choice to not have adopted HR and OR for so long. It's generally better to just adopt them early on and eat the one turn of anarchy as they are very useful Civics. I think you should wait for CoL before firing off a Golden Age. You never know when you will get another shot at a Golden Age, better maximise the gains.

I agree: wait for CoL (then go CS?) ; fire GA ; switch to HR, OR, CS ; starve-spam GS. If we reach CS before the end of the GA, switch to Bureaucracy. I can't say if we're still be in the race for Lib or not (I think we are).

Wether we reach Lib first or not, I'd then go Nationalism > Military Tradition

 

[pigswill]

Another long delay later...

I didn't adopt HR and OR earlier because they only showed up as trade items in 400ad. Delaying GA does however seem to make sense.

400ad. Traded copper to Zara for ivory (as suggested by Pomthom, we've got iron and happiness is always nice). Researching CoL. Start a couple more workers coz we've only got 5 for 7 cities .

500ad. Zara builds AP. We vote for Zara. Toku declares on Zara!

520ad. Isabella wins AP election.
Fred peace vassals to Zara so he's at war with Toku.
CoL>CS.
Time for a musical Golden Age.
Adopt HR and pacifism to boost gppt, don't adopt caste because it doesn't achieve anything.
Tweak tiles and builds to get CS in 7 so I can swop civics before end of GA.

560. Fred asks us to help kill Toku. Agree. Toku's a long way away with no direct access.

580. We get a GS. We trade music to Zara for theology.
Our vinyard is built, cancel fish for wine with Izzy, get fish for fur instead, more happy.

660. CS is in. Start on paper.
GA ends next turn. Swop civix, now running HR, buro, slavery and theocracy (its Zara's and Izzy's favourite civic which they're already running).
A great general is born in a distant land. Maybe the two missing civs are on the same landmass and don't like each other very much. Good to now.

700. AP resolution. Kill Toku. Vote yes, mutual military with Izzy if it passes.

720. AP passes (100%). Izzy founds Islam and builds Temple of Solomon, she sure is polymonotheistic. We get another GS.

760. Toku captures a german city!
Paper is in. Double bulb education. Do some trading:
CS+Col to Zara for feud, 30g.
CS+CoL to Fred for MC, construction, 165g.

That's where the round ends. Liberalism is looking fairly safe atm.



Diplomacy is looking fairly safe as well.


Toku's at -10 and at war but he's being kept busy for the moment.

On the other hand we're last in everything with no clear path to progress.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

You have an interesting situation developed, there, Pigswill. Twintusks had me laugh.

Zara being master of Germany is nasty. Had it not been so, world war on Toku could have allowed a backstab of Germany.

So options to take land are limited. Either you try and snipe Japanese cities (following Zara's army, letting him siege)... but that doesn't seem very convenient as you'd need medieval tech (maces/trebs/knights) and units to do so...
... Either you consider a breakout against Zara. That is tough but you have time to prepare. And then you'll have to circumvent the AP... (Zara might go Free Religion, though!)

It is a 3 cities front you have in the south.
That can be tricky to manage: before the DoW, you'll need to clear all jungles/forests and road most tiles at the border to help clear Zara's units.
You'll also need to know where his stack(s) are.
N-E you can hope to be weak and push through German territory (also weak). Danger would be a stack coming back from Japan. Also, once you're in Berlin, you might find it difficult to push forward (surrounded). So if you attack, N-E: defence South.
Alternative is attacking South and defending N-E... It might be better to go mounted but you'd be more resilient on foot. Looks like it could be possible to split your army for the first 2 or maybe 3 cities, and then converge on Addis Ababa. Siege warfare would then become unstoppable.
Advantage of attacking Zara first is that Germany might renounce to their master. Possibly Japan too, if worst comes to worst. If you can get a separate peace (and avoid a Spanish DoW), then you could get be in good shape.


As I see it, being compact, you need national wonders to help powering out the army. Getting a tech lead or sustaining parity, I think (I hope!) you can manage.
I'd research Literature instead of Compass if I were you (although it's a good idea to go towards Astronomy, getting a trade bait as well, Literature is much cheaper).

With that said, a major objective for your following turns should be to unlock the Heroic Epic. You have an awesome site for that wonder and a war going on to train units (you don't need a SoD, just units in the melee).
Then find a place to put the NE and the Globe Theatre. Don't neglect the globe: unlimited whippings or drafts, if you go that way. If you have several cities that are production powerhouses, then being compact won't matter (too much).

@military tech: no clear idea, there. Riflemen or Cuirassiers seem open. Canons are also possible. Try and assess how long it will take your cities to be ready to pump units and then decide the military tech you want, maybe?
@your cities: you need a lot of production, now! Grow-whip-grow-whip-grow and get buildings! Alternatively and maybe better, build mostly Forges (now! Bare minimum to get an army), the National Epic and revolt to Caste System to accelerate your GP production. Might be better to run Caste soon, since you have several cities that are quite large. Don't think you necessarily need a golden age to switch civics Anarchy loses 1 turn, that is all.
I think that, generally, you're too lax with your production. Cities should either have more whip anger or run more specialists.

Hope that helps. You can break out. But will need AP opportunity plus determination to get the production.

 

[pigswill]

Interesting and food for thought.

I must admit I was thinking about going in a different direction.

Here we've got the known world:



Buddhist love-fest with AP to keep us nice to each other or Tokugawa and his protective longbows. No easy pickings there.

Here we have terra incognito:



There's a couple more civs out there but hopefully not too advanced. There may even be some unclaimed islands. Lib>Astro perhaps?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

What direction were you thinking about? It may be more sensible
Break-out is do or die.

Lib Astro is definitely a sound move. At the very least you'll get trade partners + overseas trade routes.
Naval invasion is also a possibility that it opens.
If you don't invade anywhere, you're left with AP, UN & Culture. Space should be possible if you do go naval. And if you break Zara... Domination, maaaybe (Isabella will remain as a contender). Breaking Zara would certainly open the more possibilities (but it is the the more risky move... aaah!).

@National Wonders: in any case, don't neglect them

EDIToverseas: they have Engineering, there, but maybe not many troops. Certainly worth checking. You might find Huayna, Gandhi or someone like that. True about islands, too, worth checking.

 

[pigswill]

I was thinking that next move would be whip forges, whip/chop unis (need 1 more lib/uni for Oxford) and Oxford in Capital. Clammy Plains may be an option for NE; with LH built it can run 4 specs at pop 7 and Flying Pig can make use of the grassland hills.I was kind of hoping to trade for lit, maybe with compass.

Need to get out exploring once I've got optics and see how the game goes.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, Bay of Pigs seems like your best bet for the NE.
No clear spot for the Globe but, with farm irrigation, almost any grassland city could do. No need for special resources overkill.

Problem with waiting for Literature to be open for trade is that... you don't know when that will happen. More AIs need to discover the tech before it is available.
And it's only a 3 turns research. Compass, Optics, Astro is MUCH more than 3 turns. Finally, National Epic can help bulbing into Astronomy and greatly speed it up

 

[pigswill]

I'm friendly with Isabella (and Zara and Fred) and shared religion, shared war and fave civics with Isabella and Zara should keep us friendly for a few more turns at least so I don't anticipate Isabella will remove lit from tech trades in the next five turns.

Flying Fish is the obvious HE site though with a bunch of infrastructure to build I'm not sure when I'll have enough units spare to send over to Japan to accumulate xp.