Early Empire was huge success but middle Empire had already degenerated and late Empire was constantly worst kind plotting and backstabing. Rome was destroyed not because of Barbarians but because of continious internal power struggle over many centuries.
Rome Overhaul
- Thread starter iOnlySignIn
- Start date
Early Empire was huge success but middle Empire had already degenerated and late Empire was constantly worst kind plotting and backstabing. Rome was destroyed not because of Barbarians but because of continious internal power struggle over many centuries.
Locutus_Morti
Prince
You know, there's the whole "buying barbarians off as mercenaries and leaving Rome undefended" thing.
What's wrong with that?
Caesar Augustus
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2001
- Messages
- 385
I think people underestimate the extent to which economic considerations brought Rome down. The Italian peninsula had always been among the least productive regions of the Empire, and as economic policy became more liberal and the trade rights of Italians were gradually spread throughout the colonies, less and less wealth made its way back to the homeland. I think a huge portion of those "power struggles" were due to an entrenched elite fighting over dwindling resources. But that's not really relevant to the game so we should all get back on track 
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
^ Yeah. There is this whole theory that Rome came to prominence mainly because of its strategic location (apart from superior political organization of course). Like Corinth and Constantinople. It has no strong basis of indigenous production or commerce. Its expansion beyond Italy was never meant to be sustainable in the long run.
Ideally we should be able to simulate Rome's fall by simulating the (admittedly conjectural) mechanics behind its fall. Whether it be barbarian invasions, economic exhaustion, or internal strife. The current way of making Rome fall is just hitting it with a truckload of Foreign Stability hits between 400 and 850 AD, which is not very realistic or interesting IMO.
Ideally we should be able to simulate Rome's fall by simulating the (admittedly conjectural) mechanics behind its fall. Whether it be barbarian invasions, economic exhaustion, or internal strife. The current way of making Rome fall is just hitting it with a truckload of Foreign Stability hits between 400 and 850 AD, which is not very realistic or interesting IMO.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
Another related suggestion:
I believe AI Persia should get a respawn/Stability reset/free army around 200 AD, to represent the rise of the Sassanids.
Currently AI Persia dies too easily to Barbs before that date. When I roll Arab spawns, most of the time Persia isn't there. When I play as Rome, most of the time when I get to Persia it's at least half dead, with many of its cities razed by barbs. It's really sad to watch and not very realistic at all.
Also, after AI Greece conquers Egypt/Persia and collapses, Egypt/Persia should respawn with reset Stability as Ptolemys and Seleucids (Independents are boring and disgusting - no offense). The problem with the Classic Near East is that it's too empty for too much time, with everyone hurrying to die to each other & barbs. A few quick respawns could fix the problem and make the area more interesting.
I believe AI Persia should get a respawn/Stability reset/free army around 200 AD, to represent the rise of the Sassanids.
Currently AI Persia dies too easily to Barbs before that date. When I roll Arab spawns, most of the time Persia isn't there. When I play as Rome, most of the time when I get to Persia it's at least half dead, with many of its cities razed by barbs. It's really sad to watch and not very realistic at all.
Also, after AI Greece conquers Egypt/Persia and collapses, Egypt/Persia should respawn with reset Stability as Ptolemys and Seleucids (Independents are boring and disgusting - no offense). The problem with the Classic Near East is that it's too empty for too much time, with everyone hurrying to die to each other & barbs. A few quick respawns could fix the problem and make the area more interesting.
Great topic - for me Rome was always one of the most interesting CIVs to play (Good mix of expansion and war) and I just wanted to add my € 0.01 to the pile:
When doing the overhaul, I think that the most important thing would be to move the Rome goals to before the spawn of the European civs (Currently 650-900 AD).
My argument for this is based simply on playability, thought having just completed the excellent History of Rome podcast (http://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/) I believe I could easily find a couple of historical arguments for this.
When doing the overhaul, I think that the most important thing would be to move the Rome goals to before the spawn of the European civs (Currently 650-900 AD).
My argument for this is based simply on playability, thought having just completed the excellent History of Rome podcast (http://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/) I believe I could easily find a couple of historical arguments for this.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
^ Agreed. I generally don't like "in year X" type of UHVs. They seem arbitrary and often prolong the game unnecessarily. Unless the year X holds some important historical significance, of course, for example 1930. I fail to see what significance the year 1000 holds for Rome - it's just there to force you to play longer without adding much fun.
Which is why I proposed the "Be the first to discover .... and Constitution" goal. If you can tech to Constitution before 1000, then more power to you. You can end the game honorably then, instead of dragging a diseased and aging civilization past an arbitrary year.
Which is why I proposed the "Be the first to discover .... and Constitution" goal. If you can tech to Constitution before 1000, then more power to you. You can end the game honorably then, instead of dragging a diseased and aging civilization past an arbitrary year.
I personaly hate goals "research tech x first". Nothing is more anoying than see how some remote and bizzare civilization takes that tech first and ruining your whole game...
I propose "control Italian penninsula after/on year x". This would present how Roman civilization survived barbarian invasion similar like Greeks and exist today.
Hippo8085
Shaken, not stirred
That is the equivalent of a survive until goal, which is implied in any other. You could make it just as bad by saying control 2 wine resources by year x.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
If you play a civ like China, Rome, or England (and Russia, in my case), it is part of your duty to lead the world in Tech. If some bizarre distant civ dare threaten your Tech lead, crush them with your military might like the superpower you are supposed to be.
Honestly, as Rome, who's going to threaten your Tech lead? China? China is helpless once you overtake them early with your uber starting Tech + Oracle Currency, as it voids their UP completely. India and Japan are slowed down too because China is slowed down. England will happily vassalize to you and research whatever filler Tech (Music) you order it to do. Every other possible Tech leader will be pulverized by you and your Legions.
Okay, I've finally gotten around to do something about this. I've made the following changes so far:
- significantly increased Roman unit production
- reduced Legion cost from 45 to 40 (same as Swordsmen)
- removed the old UP, gave AI only conquerors instead
- new UP is the Civ5 Roman feature: +30% building construction for every building in your capital*
- gave Legions the ability to build Roman roads, who are like usual roads but give +1 movement with Masonry instead of Engineering, so they will be superior to these until Engineering becomes widespread
I haven't changed the UHV yet. I guess the building goal can be made more difficult (more buildings) or expanded by more building types (forums), but is otherwise appropriate.
The third goal should be replaced either by a tech goal (I think Machinery, Civil Service and Theology are a good trio) or something related to Catholicism, although I can't think of a good goal at the moment.
*I think buffs depending on number of cities alone is too much prone to exploits in the end, therefore I'll try this first.
- significantly increased Roman unit production
- reduced Legion cost from 45 to 40 (same as Swordsmen)
- removed the old UP, gave AI only conquerors instead
- new UP is the Civ5 Roman feature: +30% building construction for every building in your capital*
- gave Legions the ability to build Roman roads, who are like usual roads but give +1 movement with Masonry instead of Engineering, so they will be superior to these until Engineering becomes widespread
I haven't changed the UHV yet. I guess the building goal can be made more difficult (more buildings) or expanded by more building types (forums), but is otherwise appropriate.
The third goal should be replaced either by a tech goal (I think Machinery, Civil Service and Theology are a good trio) or something related to Catholicism, although I can't think of a good goal at the moment.
*I think buffs depending on number of cities alone is too much prone to exploits in the end, therefore I'll try this first.
Hippo8085
Shaken, not stirred
Why not spread Catholicism to 30% before 300AD?
This sort of gives a population goal and encourages even further to go on the Catholicism route rather than pantheon for the wonders.
This sort of gives a population goal and encourages even further to go on the Catholicism route rather than pantheon for the wonders.
Power_of_Beer
Prince
What about importing some exotic goods? Something like, control a total of 5 Silk/Tea/Sugar by 800AD. You know, decadent lifestyle etc...
Here's a screenshot showing Roman roads:
And yes, these are legions with shovels. That was hilarious at first glance, didn't expect the game to be able to handle this without any input from me. The general AI also seems to work without any adjustments from my side - the legions seem to just have started building roads, when Rome is at peace, and only connect cities and don't pave the whole countryside.
Spoiler :
And yes, these are legions with shovels. That was hilarious at first glance, didn't expect the game to be able to handle this without any input from me. The general AI also seems to work without any adjustments from my side - the legions seem to just have started building roads, when Rome is at peace, and only connect cities and don't pave the whole countryside.
Hippo8085
Shaken, not stirred
Got the graphic from the Charlemagne mod, did you?
