Scandinavian Expansion for VD - Brainstorm

[AbsintheRed]

Actually I also played with the idea of having Athen, Sparta, Mycenea, Minoa, Troy, Epeiros and Macedonia, maybe Ithaca too, as we have really good LHs for them already (civs too in most cases), and more or less cover the whole area...
But then I convinced myself that it would be much better for a scenario. Or maybe for one city challange

I still think that adding Macedonia (Alexander and Philip II) and Epeiros (Pyrrhos) as new civs would be cool (and distinct enough), while we keep the original Greek civilization (Pericles, Leonidas/Cleomenes, Antiochus) to represent the core greek city states. Many mods already have Minoa (Minos, Satur) and Troy (Hector, Priamos), so these 5 would cover all the greeks pretty much...

EDIT: I did not see the last 2 posts while posting this

 

[Androrc the Orc]

I could actually like it if they splitted greece in Sparta, Athens and Macedon. Korinth were a Spartan Ally, thus it could be their second city, while Athens could have Piraeus, their wery important harbour, as a second city. As you see there are lots of names to use.

Indeed, but I don't think it would be needed to put Korinth as a Spartan city, since there were a good number of cities in Spartan territory itself.

Here is a list of Athenian and Spartan cities from a map I have here:

Athenian Cities:

Athens
Piraeus
Eleusis
Aphidnae
Marathon
Decelea
Thoricus
Anaphlystus
Halimus
Phalerum
Brauron
Arosphen
Thorae
Halae-Aexonides
Rhamnus
Panactum
Eleutherae
Acharuae
Phyle

Spartan Cities:

Sparta
Gythium
Asopus
Epidaurus Limera
Zarax
Las
Teuthrone
Geronthrae
Cyphanta
Marius
Cyparissia
Acriae
Boeae
Prasiae
Tyrus
Glympeis
Selinus
Pharis
Therapne
Sellasia
Carystia
Caryae
Aegys
Harplea
Amyelae
Brysae
Croceae
Aegiae
Oetylus
Pyrrhielus
Messa
Hippola
Caenepolis
Pephnos
Cardamyle
Leuctrum
Alagonia
Gerenia
Belemina

 

[AbsintheRed]

I could actually like it if they splitted greece in Sparta, Athens and Macedon. Korinth were a Spartan Ally, thus it could be their second city, while Athens could have Piraeus, their wery important harbour, as a second city. As you see there are lots of names to use.

I just wrote that I realized splitting them as far to Athen, Sparta, Mycenea, Delphoi, Corinth, and so on would be a mistake, so I think you misunderstand me.
Having city states were just a step in the "evolution of Greece" after all.

But Macedonia, Troy, Minoa and Epeiros were never exactly part of ancient Greece, in my mind they are dictinct enough (even if they were mostly inhabited by greeks) to get their own civs while we keep the original Greece.

 

[The Capo]

I just wrote that I realized splitting them as far to Athen, Sparta, Mycenea, Delphoi, Corinth, and so on would be a mistake, so I think you misunderstand me.
Having city states were just a step in the "evolution of Greece" after all.

But Macedonia, Troy, Minoa and Epeiros were never exactly part of ancient Greece, in my mind they are dictinct enough (even if they were mostly inhabited by greeks) to get their own civs while we keep the original Greece.

I would throw Macedonia on to that list as well. Having said that, I feel like a total ass for causing this to happen.

I'm not sure if Troy was a "Greek" city or had a Greek culture to it or not, I believe in the original telling/work the Greeks were referred to as Argives (thus from Argos primarily), I'm not sure if this was done because the Trojans were also Greeks/Hellenes so they had to distinguish them from their foes, or simply because most of the armies arrayed against them were from the Argos region. It would be cool to add though. The Minoans, as far as I know, were precursors to the Mycenaean Civilization, which was the dominant power in Greece until the rise of city-states like Sparta and Athens so that would be fine as a civ too. Epirus (Epeiros, Epiros, whatever) was actually a Greek state (much like Macedonia) but was considered by most of the Greek city-states to be backwards because they didn't live in big cities (or operate from a Polis-centric government) like they did in places like Corinth and Athens. They still spoke Greek, dressed like Greeks, had Greek religion, and considered themselves (and were considered by other Greeks) to be Greeks. So I'm not sure I'd include them as a different civ.

I think what should probably be done here, if you want to do this, I'd go with these civs; Macedonia, Minoans, (Trojans), Seleucids, Antigonids, Ptolemies, and Thracians (that can include the Empire of Lysimachios too). I know that the Thracians aren't really Greeks, but they were heavily influenced by Hellenism and one of Alexander's Generals (Lysimachios sp?) ruled them after his death.

 

[Androrc the Orc]

I'm not sure if Troy was a "Greek" city or had a Greek culture to it or not, I believe in the original telling/work the Greeks were referred to as Argives (thus from Argos primarily), I'm not sure if this was done because the Trojans were also Greeks/Hellenes so they had to distinguish them from their foes, or simply because most of the armies arrayed against them were from the Argos region. It would be cool to add though.

According to what I learned in university, the most probable hypothesis is that the Trojans were Hittites, or related to the Hittites.

 

[The Capo]

According to what I learned in university, the most probable hypothesis is that the Trojans were Hittites, or related to the Hittites.

That seems likely to me.

 

[Manifold]

According to what I learned in university, the most probable hypothesis is that the Trojans were Hittites, or related to the Hittites.

Which Troy do you mean?

The Trojan of Homer were definitive Greeks. In the Iliad they have the same gods, the same language, culture...

The archaeologic excavation shows mycenaean discoveries!

 

[Androrc the Orc]

Which Troy do you mean?

The Trojan of Homer were definitive Greeks. In the Iliad they have the same gods,

A Greek probably would believe only those gods existed, and the other gods worshiped by other people were either different names for the same gods.

the same language, culture...

It's not uncommon for literary works to have people of different cultures speaking the same language.

The archaeologic excavation shows mycenaean discoveries!

Considering Troy was an important trade center at a certain time, and that it was also conquered by Greeks in another time, it doesn't seem weird to me for Mycenaean artifacts to be found there.

In any case, this is all very hypothetical stuff, but from what I have read, them being related to the Hittites does seem the more probably possibility.

 

[The Capo]

This is getting tremendously off-topic now, I'd suggest starting a new thread if you want to be involved in the Greek expansion project. But just to chime in, it seems in a sense, that both of you may be correct. According to a lot of archeologists the inhabitants of Troy could have been peoples native to Anatolia who migrated eastward due to the Hitties moving into the region from the Caucases:

Now, this is probably theoretical, but it appears to me that these people also settled in Greece. And from what I know about linguistics and ancient religions that the name of Troy, cmoes from a Hatti word, which was the language adopted by the Hittites. It is also pretty apparent that since the gods of ancient times were all pretty much related, especially the ones ranging from India, the Middle East, Europe and North Africa at the time that the Greeks were probably a migratory group that was related to the people who lived in Troy at the time. So basically they are related or the same people, but over time developed different language and culture. And yes, the fact that Mycenaean artifacts were found at Troy means nothing except that there were Mycenaean artifacts at Troy. There were Buddhist ornaments in Scandinavian sites, that doesn't make the ancient and dark-age Norse were Buddhists.

And speaking of the Norse... let's get back to the Scandinavian expansion!

 

[Manifold]

And speaking of the Norse... let's get back to the Scandinavian expansion!

Good idea!

My last words on this subject.

A Greek probably would believe only those gods existed, and the other gods worshiped by other people were either different names for the same gods.

This could be a roman argument, Julius Caesar did this in his De bello Gallico for the North- and Westeuropean, but the classical roman authors mark-off from the gods from the east.
Besides the Hittite pantheon was total different from the greek.

It's not uncommon for literary works to have people of different cultures speaking the same language.

The Iliad distinguish pretty clear between the Trojan and their Anatolian ally. Oh, and the Iliad is the only source.

Considering Troy was an important trade center at a certain time, and that it was also conquered by Greeks in another time, it doesn't seem weird to me for Mycenaean artifacts to be found there.

The prevailing opinion declare the findings from the archaeological excavation site at Hisarlık pointed to a mycenean settlemant on this hill at possible time. But maybe the place is wrong?

In any case, this is all very hypothetical stuff, but from what I have read, them being related to the Hittites does seem the more probably possibility.

Of course the Iliad point east, but this should be seen as a circumstance of Homers lifetime (800 (+/-50) BC). So if there will be a link between troy and asia, it would be the time of the assyrian empire.


In causa of the map: I don´t know who mad it, but it can´t be right. Indisputable the Hittites get contact with the Egyptian in the south and rule Cilicia. This is missing on the map! Instead of this a arrow points west to the greek mainland? This eat-west migration take place 1000 years before the battle of Troy and the Hittites and much more centuries before Homer, the only guy how tells us from Troy. The map is substantial distinguished from the maps by Susan Kennedy, Walter Leisering and Kinder/Hilgemann.

sorry veBear for spamming your thread, but some attractive theories still need more facts to overtake the accepted opinion, thats why they still must called, as what they are: theories.


If you are intrested in this stuff, your are all welcome to rump the world of odysseus up. the framework is for the time 4000 BC to 300 BC. I already start with a lot of poleis. There is so much work to do and another scenario could include the Troy as the Hittite, of course.

 

[The Capo]

The people migrating in the map are not the Hittites, they are caused to migrate by the Hittites. It doesn't show the Hittites Empire or meeting with the Egyptians because it isn't about the Hittites.

 

[The_J]

There were Buddhist ornaments in Scandinavian sites, that doesn't make the ancient and dark-age Norse were Buddhists.

Well, that would be quite interesting .

 

[NikNaks]

O.o So I take a few days away, and this happens?!

I'd love to make a Greek/Hellenic expansion some day, but I should focus on this first. I'm going to start with the Ancient pack first (the one where the Vikings are replaced), and hopefully get it done in the next week or so. If anyone is willing to help out, possibly by compiling the necessary art snippets (LHs, units and so on) to save me a great deal of time, I'd be very grateful

So, the Ancient pack:
Sweden
Leaders

• Ragnar

UU

• Berserker

Denmark
Leaders

• Canute

UU

• Longboat

Norway
Leaders

• Harald Hardrada
• Harald Fairhair

UU

• Milorg

UB

• Stavkirke

Any glaring omissions from the last few pages?

 

[gopher666]

Use Birkebeiner instead of Milorg for Norway. Posted info about them earlyer in this thread.

In an "Ancient" pack, I can certainly +1 that. Milorg, after all, was active during world war II.

 

[gopher666]

The Birkebeiner were active during the medieval times, and i must say that they representent more for a Norwegian than Milorg do. Milorg were a guerilla fighting gruop, not specialised soldiers, and they were not much else than a pack of brave men fighting for their country. The Birkebeiner were more like a "specialised" unit. Farmers who couldn't afford any armor and then used bark instead, and still they were fierce warriors, engaging against St. Olaf in the Battle at Stiklestad (do not trust wikipedia on this one, it's a free encyclopeida you know, and i were thought this in primary school). Today we even have a ski-race kalled the Birkebeiner Run. It was also they who saved Haakon Haakonson, one of the greater kings of Norway.

I know, I've been taught all that at school, too. Then again, you couldn't know, since the location doesn't say I'm from Norway. Agreed re: the Birkebeiners, btw.

 

[AbsintheRed]

What's up guys? NikNaks?

 

[Le Sage]

What is happening with this mod? I really think it's interesting and would like to see it done. It's a nice idea to split the Vikings into three and see what happens.

I was once planning a mod about The Great Northern War myself with Sweden, Denmark, Russia, Brandenburg, Polad and so on, but I have my hands full right now.

 

[NikNaks]

I have my hands full, too, unfortunately, and the computer I run Civ from is horrendously unreliable of late. I haven't forgotten about this mod, but it might end up arriving a lot later than planned.

 

[NiRv4n4]

Errr exactly how late? I think a mod like this would be cool, but so would a Viking civ mod for Civ 5. Shame there aren't Vikings in that one, and a travesty that there is no Spain. Hope this one gets completed soon though.

 

[The Capo]

Errr exactly how late? I think a mod like this would be cool, but so would a Viking civ mod for Civ 5. Shame there aren't Vikings in that one, and a travesty that there is no Spain. Hope this one gets completed soon though.

No Spain?!?!?! No Vikings?!?!?! What?!?!?!