Is great to have you back giving me feedback from that part of the world. Most people wouldn't even bother to try playing those minor civs in the scenario, not to mention even giving me feedback!
well, you have spent thousands of hours to make this map and scenarios to help people have fun - feedback is the least you deserve
traits are specify to the leaderheads. The choice we can have is either using SULEIMAN (imperialistic, philosophical, favor hereditary rule) or MEHMED (expansive, organized, favor vassalage)
Ah, the problem arises from all your scenarios using the same files. I basically changed Suleiman's traits from the xml files, but that's me - I don't mind an hour of text browsing prior to a 20-30 hour game. I suppose adding all ww2 leaders would have been too much work.
I might have been a bit harsh when defining which country to have Universal Suffrage in the scenario. Actually, no one country I gave Universal Suffrage in the scenario as I thought 'true' universal suffrage is something after the second world war, including US and UK. I probably haven't do enough homework on this issue.
ok then, I didn't really check the other countries. By the way, it seems most AI countries make a revolution at the start.
Yes, it was none. I added in v5 when I increase the number of oil on the map globally. I think I added there for gameplay. But just looked at the reference I have, I think it is more correct to remove it.
Probably not. Turkey doesn't seems to produce enough aluminum to get one represented. For Banana, like you mentioned, in GEM I tried to represent the correct resource only to avoid dispute. However, if I there is really something I think really lacking, I can give some exceptions. Please tell me some stats as to why you think Turkey should include a Banana.
I am not really advocating for those. I thought you had that oil for game balance, and I thought I might be offsetting it. So I decided to add something else.
As for stats, I wrote the one below a long time ago, but items 3-5 apply here.
Spoiler:
Turkey is the country with
1- Highest tea consumption per capita.
2- Highest bread consumption per capita.
3- 74% of world's hazelnut production.
4- 25% (highest fraction) of world fig production.
5- 18% (highest fraction) of world apricot production.
6- 64% of known Boron reserves
7- 40% (highest fraction) of known Marble reserves
8- Almost all known meerschaum reserves
9- Oldest fortified settlement (Catalhoyuk, pop.10000 c.7500BC)
10- Oldest temple (near Urfa, c.10000BC)
11- First female military pilot
Those are just the top productions - production of many other fruits and vegetables is quite big as well (although decreasing in the last two decades due to lack of government support to the sector). According to http://faostat.fao.org/site/339/default.aspx (take a look they have a bunch of excel sheets, makes me want to mod more resource types into the game), Turkey has always been in the top10 of fruit and vegetable production, and as of 2004, it was #4 in the world. (Their data goes back to only 1979, but I don't expect much different demographics before that - if anything, the earlier governments put a lot more emphasis on agriculture).
It is more of a game problem than a mod problem. Civ has 3 grain-type foods, 4 meats, 4 seafoods, and a banana? ok, grapes are also in there. As far as game balance on a randomly generated map is concerned, resource#4 vs resource#8 doesn't really matter. But inadequate number of resources make simulating the reality more difficult, and #4 producer of fruits and vegetables end up getting a single grape (which is half luxury half food resource in the game).
So, what does all that tell us? Nothing, if you decide bananas are bananas. And I think it is the logical thing to do, otherwise you'll have to put bananas to other mediterranean countries, which have similar f&w production. Mine was just further customization.
It is hard to get military stats for the neutral countries during WW2. When I did it, I think I just use the current military size ~800000/40000 = 20. I think I I can do what you suggested.
Actually, just found this website. Would you agree with it? Interestingly, it can lead me to about the same size (In 1941, 43 divisions/2 = 21) http://members.tripod.com/~marcin_w/index-2.html
That's an awesome website, thanks. Let's take a look, shall we?
Spoilera look :
In 1939 the Turkish army ... altogether 132 regiments (60 infantry, six mountain troops, 21 cavalry, eight reserve cavalry, 20 field artillery, 10 heavy artillery, and seven fortress artillery)...
...in 1939, the Turkish navy contained 19 naval vessels and they included one armoured ship, one line cruiser, two light cruisers, two torpedo-boats, four destroyers, five submarines, and four other lesser ships (most vessels were obsolete); with a total displacement of 55 775 tonnes (the number of naval personnel stood at 9 200). The real combat value of the navy was insignificant.
By 1940 the Turkish air force was composed of four air regiments (each regiment contained six air companies), and had in possession a total of 370 aircraft (it had 8 500 personnel).
I think you should base things on the 39 data for land, because army got restructured after the war spread to the Balkans. Assuming an average of 5 regiments make up a division (2+ make up a brigade and 2+ brigades make up a division) and 2 divisions make one unit for your scenario, Turkey gets 7 infantry (one of which have guerilla promotion(s) ), 3 cavalry, 4 artillery. I would also turn one of those infantry to machinegunner and one to anti-tank, as those kinds of civ units are rolled into the infantry in military terminology.
I think my 1 destroyer and 1 transport is good for the navy.
As for the airforce, it says 370. If I remember correctly, France had 2000 (or 2500?) and Germany had 3000 aircraft at the beginning of 1940. So I guess 1 fighter is good.
Culture is a very difficult issue. I need to make sure one city doesn't absorb other cities naturally. While it is true that Athens is a culturally rich, I am worry about Hungary. I can check.
Exactly my point, 4 of the 8 squares adjacent to Izmir became Greek during the game, even though I edited 2000 culture to Izmir. It seems the total culture of a city is concentrated on itself, and plot ownership is decided more by culture per turn accumulated. But I might be mistaken.
I am not too concern about the see port, I am concern about Hungary doesn't have enough space. In contrast, at the moment, Istanbul still have many free space to the south or east. But I agree it is a more accurate location. I will have a look.
I don't know, I just don't like cities being within 2 sq of each other in civ games. It lets tanks from one city move, attack, and withdraw back into the safety of the city all on the same turn. With all the health and happiness problems of resource-poor small countries in the game, I doubt either city will be using all of those squares anyway.
I've got this reference that basically list city sizes for EVERY CITY in the world in the last century. http://www.populstat.info
Base on that reference, in 1940, populations in thousands are:
Istanbul has 793.9 ~ 11 in game.
Ismir has 183.8 ~ 6/7 ( I took the greater)
Ankara has 157.2 ~ 6 ( I gave 7 since it is a capital)
Athens has 1124.1 ~ 12/13 (I took the greater as well)
Wait, I guessed too. On afterthought, Izmir might have had some jews as well, as it had in the Ottoman times.
I will review this using your info as a reference. However, keep in mind that we have to cut down the numbers globally for gameplay. For example, I don't think I can give 3 airports to Turkey, even Germany only has 3 in the scenario!
I was guessing that. But it is at marathon speed, and I didn't want to be building things forever, so I decided to include a small airport like Izmir, or unimportant university of Ankara, or Banks and Grocers everywhere (all cities have grocers and at least one bank). So just pretend those are the maximums (I did some research to find out when Colosseums, Univs, etc were built in those cities), those cities had them albeit with varying degrees of importance. It is upto you to remove any number of them for game balance.
Probably not at this stage. It is tempting to change some of the default setting. I also have a list of things in my mind too, such as allowing bombing units to death (why only half?). But that these changes can have great impact to the game balance which I must do it very cautiously.
I wasn't suggesting you to implement those in, just telling you my usual modifications, maybe you'll like some of them and decide to give a try.
Bombing only half does not make sense, and is an arbitrary limit, but I think it is there for game balance. Even with the limit, I think airforce is quite decimating in the game. The only reason I could withstand wave after wave of Panzers with a handful of units and with negligible casualties is because I had 8 fighters in Istanbul. (4 panzers come, each are hit by 2 fighters and one land unit. The only thing that changes on my side is the xp)
Besides, without a limit, you can basically start conquering cities from the air.
AI is difficult to teach. I don't think I can make German AI as aggressive as it should. That's why I am trying to set up a PBEM game where this scenario should be play on. Interested? You can play Turkey and other neutral civs if you want.
Turkey actually had large jewish and greek minorities. Several turkish officals saved many thousand jewish europeans from sure death during WW2.
On the other hand nationalist turks ethnically and religiously cleansed the country during the Istanbul Pogrom 1955. Though you have to add that the heads of the responsible gouvernment were sentenced to death after the pro-western military couped in 1960. Charges included the pogrom.
Turkey was and is known for a very ambivalent policy concerning its minorities. Armenians, greek, jews, christians and kurds ... all of them have seen pogroms and even genocides as well as rather liberal and integrating policies.
I think you should base things on the 39 data for land, because army got restructured after the war spread to the Balkans. Assuming an average of 5 regiments make up a division (2+ make up a brigade and 2+ brigades make up a division) and 2 divisions make one unit for your scenario, Turkey gets 7 infantry (one of which have guerilla promotion(s) ), 3 cavalry, 4 artillery. I would also turn one of those infantry to machinegunner and one to anti-tank, as those kinds of civ units are rolled into the infantry in military terminology.
I think my 1 destroyer and 1 transport is good for the navy.
As for the airforce, it says 370. If I remember correctly, France had 2000 (or 2500?) and Germany had 3000 aircraft at the beginning of 1940. So I guess 1 fighter is good.
1) May be both 1939 and 1941's data are not too suitable and I will attempt take an average of both. But I tend to lean towards 1941 since I also need to make sure Turkey can survive in the Balkans - Hungarian, Yogoslav and Greek armies are quite large in comparison.
2) Basing the calculation on regiments will lead to inconsistency with other nations that based on divisions. Usually, an infantry division is make up of not just infantry regiments, but also artillery regiments, machinegunners etc. In reality term, we usually don't see many divisions specifically for artillery or machineguns but we do in regiments. So, most nations in the scenarios gets infantry. I swap some of them (without reference) for machine guns and artillery on an ad hoc bases where I see a need. For example, I give machineguns to a lot of those neutral nations. Another thing is that I give Riflemen instead of Infantry to those nations that their military equipments are behind. These nations include Denmark, Netherlands, Turkey and most Asian countries.
Actually some states should get universal suffrage in 1940. But, not all.
Frex the USA didn't have complete universal suffrage (suffrage for all people independent of gender and ethnicy) until the Civil Rights Act in 1964.
Lets go through the nations:
- Germany: since 1928 BUT with the Reichsbürgergesetz of 1935 jewish inhabitants essentially lost their ability to participaty -> NO
- Italy: since 1925 for communes, since 1946 generell -> NO
- Britain: for unmarried women an communes since 1869, since 1894 for all women, since 1918 with severe age limitations for all votes, since 1928 full -> YES
- France: since 1945 -> NO
- Netherland: since 1919 active -> YES
- Spain: since 1933 -> YES
- Portugal: since 1931 with limitations, since 1976 full -> NO
- Norway: since 1913 (1915 with Danmark and Island) -> YES
- Sweden: since 1921 -> YES
- Finland: since 1906 -> YES
- Hungary: effectively since 1953 -> NO
- Greece: since 1949 -> NO
- Russia: since 1918 -> YES
- Turkey: since 1930/34 -> YES
- Saudi Arabia: NO
- Egypt: since 1956 -> NO
- Iraq: since 1980 -> NO
- Iran: since 1963 -> NO
- India: in theory since 1935, practically since 1950 -> NO
- Thailand: since 1932 and following, see India -> NO
- Mongolia: since 1924 -> YES
- Manchuria: NO
- Japan: since 1945 (limited) -> NO
- China: since 1949 unlimited -> NO
- South Africa: since 1930 ethnically limited -> NO
- Australia: since1902 limited, soon after unlimited -> YES
- New Zealand: since 1893 (only active) later unlimited -> YES
- America: since 1920 (ethnically limited), full since 1964 -> NO
- Canada: between 1918 and 1940 (Quebec) -> YES
- Mexico: since 1947 (communes), full since 1953 -> NO
- Colombia: since 1954 -> NO
- Peru: since 1955 -> NO
- Brazil: since 1932 -> YES
- Argentina: since 1947 -> NO
- Chile: since 1949 -> NO
Should now all civs with a YES get universal suffrage in the scenario? NO, because we got two other poossible civics: police state and representation.
The following states might have it. I'll give my suggestions for alternatives though:
Basically all of the commonwealth (except India and South Africa) and the scandinavian states might have universal suffrage, but only in the forming wellfare states of scandinavia (Sweden and Norway) I would see allready full flegded universal suffrage states.
^^, yeah you looked in the english wiki. ^^ I did use the german wikipedia, which usually is more thorough AND reliable then the english version. Germans being perfectionists is not (only) a prejudice. Sometimes this can work to your advantage.
Of corse there is. But it is so tiny that it would be less than a tenth of a resource icon in the game. Oil was found in Turkey in 1934, but has never been enough for domestic usage. In 1940 extraction was about 4000ton/yr. Today it is 2.5 million ton/year, which is not even enough for 10% of domestic need. Qatar extracts about 25 times that. Qatar's lack of oil production in the past does not indicate lack of oil, but abscence of wells on oilfields, in civ terms.
Also, I don't think Athens needs 10 Culture Wonders, really (although I haven't actually checked which ones are in there).
It is not a matter of need. All the civ wonders (except space elevator) are buildings from the real world. And several of them are/were in Greece. As far as I remember, simulating the reality is one of the primary aims of Genghis.
But I think Oracle, Zeus, Colossus, Lighthouse, Gardens, Artemis, Mausoleum, Library wonders could all be removed from this scenario since they no longer stand.
It is not a matter of need. All the civ wonders (except space elevator) are buildings from the real world. And several of them are/were in Greece. As far as I remember, simulating the reality is one of the primary aims of Genghis.
But I think Oracle, Zeus, Colossus, Lighthouse, Gardens, Artemis, Mausoleum, Library wonders could all be removed from this scenario since they no longer stand.
I have play tested the new version of the scenario a bit. The findings are interesting.
Firstly, I played as Germany. It is much more difficult now to conquer France. The first turn I took Amsterdam, Brussels, Paris and Nancy. The next turn, I took only Copenhagen. Then it took me another 3 turns to take Nantes and Lyon. I anticipate to take another 2-3 turns to completely occupy France.
I think this opens the possibility of a human player for France. If France is played by a human, I don't think I can take over the other cities that easy although I think it would eventually happen. That opens the desire for both Germany and France to sign an armistice treaty as history.
The production balance should now be quite realistic. What I looked was to see how many cities can produce an infantry within 10 turns. I think the balance is something like this (i didn't record):
America ~ 25
Russia ~ 20
Germany ~ 11
Britain ~ 20
France ~ 10
Japan ~ 10
Italy ~ 6
China ~ 6
Australia ~ 5
Canada ~ 5
Brazil ~ 5
The second game I played Chile. I was just trying to see what the AI would do in this game. I play tested for 1 year.
To my surprise, Germany is doing better than it was in v5.1! In Jan, it took Amsterdam as usual, Feb, Copenhagen; March, Zagreb; May, Brussels; June, Thessalonica; Hungary took Belgrade; Sep, Nancy; Oct, Athens and made Greece a vassal (leaving only Crete in Greece hand).
Not sure would the AI Germany can continue to invade France. But the current result is already much better than it was in v5.1!
Just started playing the UK atm. From a play balance issue I like the changes in India (India was too powerful beore). Not sure sure about the fleet changes atm, as currently forced to hide in the med until I bring reinforcements.. not a big deal as I am sure I will be able to turn the tied in a few turns (lost a carrier to your German U-boats in the Atlantic my 3 ship convoy was not big enough... forgot my history )
However, The one thing the changes have done is make the UK economy even further in the whole than before even at 0% science. While this is true to life it maybe over the top for game balance. This is not a definitive answer yet as I need to play further, will keep you updated. I think within ten or so turns I can take "Amsterdam" from the Germans and then the English will be set.
German's much more aggressive! Excellent!! They do tend to exhaust themselves (I took Amsterdam from them, do not think they can retake it).
Still can't drag the American's or Russians in to a war (I am playing the British).
Goal now is to take out Spain swing a large fleet into the Med and clean up Italy.
The English economy would collapse without golden ages, however control of the seas is a powerful counterbalance to economic woes, combined with the new India situation for drafting. Kinda roleplaying as Churchill so I keep everything colony maintence be damn and accept all vassals.
I hope to play the scenario through this week and it will give me a better feel for balance.
As a human player, especially with the control of the seas and large population base, I am not sure I can lose this game... But not sure I can win it either.
Has anyone had the American's or Russian's in a war yet?
If yes did they have to bribe them? I still can't bribe them.
If not when did they enter the war and against whom?
German's much more aggressive! Excellent!! They do tend to exhaust themselves (I took Amsterdam from them, do not think they can retake it).
Still can't drag the American's or Russians in to a war (I am playing the British).
Goal now is to take out Spain swing a large fleet into the Med and clean up Italy.
The English economy would collapse without golden ages, however control of the seas is a powerful counterbalance to economic woes, combined with the new India situation for drafting. Kinda roleplaying as Churchill so I keep everything colony maintence be damn and accept all vassals.
I hope to play the scenario through this week and it will give me a better feel for balance.
As a human player, especially with the control of the seas and large population base, I am not sure I can lose this game... But not sure I can win it either.
Has anyone had the American's or Russian's in a war yet?
If yes did they have to bribe them? I still can't bribe them.
If not when did they enter the war and against whom?
Great! I think the more aggressiveness of Germany comes from the use of Better AI in GEM v5.2. Otherwise, I can't explain why a weaker Germany and a stronger France would lead to the current result.
It is of course, still not as aggressive as it should be, be I guess that's we shouldn't expect more from AI.
I remember Bristish can still have 20% research, is it right? At least for the first turn.
American and Russian seems to quite for the first few years. However, as was reported, I had a game in v1.0 as China and Saw Russian and American declaring war to Japanese at about 1945. American did took over many islands from Japan and Japan eventually capitulated to America in that game. I think it could still very likely to happen in v1.3.
I saw Russia and Japan at war in every game I played so far. In my 5.1 game, Japan declared war on Russia right after they forced China to surrender and peacefully vassalized Portugal, Sweden and Finland, at about turn 35.
Have yet to see the USA declare war on anyone though.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that the leaderhead settings have changed too. Hitler could possibly be more aggressive due to the change of XML settings. Not too sure on this.
In the game I played (before the most recent changes I think), Japan took its time vassalizing China, and then in the US-Japan war (which US initiated) they lost Tokyo. Still, they declared war on Russia and doing ok so far (1948).
In the overall, I am content with the amount of fighting I saw. It clearly became a world war, such that 3 turns ago there was no civ that was not at war. The only thing that could be changed is increasing the aggresiveness of Germany, which Ghengis apparently did for the new version (even without that, I had to fight against a Germany not at war with France or Russia - seemed agressive enough from my side of the border. Demographics say I killed 55 panzers in this game. I am still happy that I managed to push back that stack of 7panzers+2gunships. But I lost Thessaloniki to the wave after that, 1 turn before peace)
You can not run any research as the British not even 10% without a deficit (Unless in a golden age). You start the game in Pacifism. I could not spend the first three turns of the game in revolt (drafting, use of Airports, Courthouse, Forbidden Palace in India are all too critical early on). So I switched to a strategy of generating GP for golden ages, which though I am still in the early stages of the game 48 turns of Golden Ages in a row help a lot
Did you mean to place two National Epics in the British Isles or was one of them meant to be a Heroic Epic?
Even so… The British are just like history stretched quite thin needing to cover territory from the Atlantic to the Pacific.
I am hoping with the addition of the Mining Capital of Amsterdam that Old Churchill can pull out a victory… Not sure if he can as a few bad decisions or Russia (which is furious at us) deciding go to war with us would be a terrible.
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), Turkey has always been in the top10 of fruit and vegetable production, and as of 2004, it was #4 in the world. (Their data goes back to only 1979, but I don't expect much different demographics before that - if anything, the earlier governments put a lot more emphasis on agriculture).
for the website.
)
(even without that, I had to fight against a Germany not at war with France or Russia - seemed agressive enough from my side of the border. Demographics say I killed 55 panzers in this game. I am still happy that I managed to push back that stack of 7panzers+2gunships. But I lost Thessaloniki to the wave after that, 1 turn before peace)
