Scenario preview: Vietnam War

[El Justo]

don't you all think that the US should have more than 2 cities?

AK, what do you think about those ideas in my previous post?

check out this map of the american tactical zones during the war. this is the I Corp, II, III and IV Corp thing i was talking about...

 

[El Justo]

oh, and what about the Montagnards of the central highlands?

 

[AK47]

yep, montagnards can be a good idea, if you can find a suitable unit.

I think we can't concentrate on just the US all that much. The idea is that in the end, all 9 factions are equally playable. The US starts with more units, air superiority, more money and tech advance. Only 2 cities is the backdrop. The idea is they will have to make units in the naval base and transport them overseas to Vietnam. One of their main strategies will be to go conquer North Vietnamese cities, I suppose. You could make those 4 zones by building US bases. Meaning airfield + fortifications and a bunch of units. You could delete the airfieldswe put in there and make fortified bases instead.

As for the Ho Chi Minh trial, if North Vietnam wants to create it, they will have to negotiate a right of passage with the Pathet Lao.

Just try out of few things you have in mind.
Remember, you can not try to be overly historically correct to a point that it will affect balanced gameplay.

 

[El Justo]

One of their main strategies will be to go conquer North Vietnamese cities, I suppose.

well, this theory has been debated for 35+ yrs. that is, what would've happened had the americans sent ground forces into n vietnam. specifically, to hanoi. the first thing would probably have been soviet intervention and/or chinese intervention. while american airpower bombed the bejesuses outta the north, they never sent in ground troops b/c of the fear of WWIII. same goes for the nuking the north

this is why i say that the ho chi minh trail be loaded w/ vp locales so that US AI will go after them and n vietnam AI will guard them. i would even go as far as putting LM Terrain along the trail and add defensive bonuses so it would be somewhat realistic.

As for the Ho Chi Minh trial, if North Vietnam wants to create it, they will have to negotiate a right of passage with the Pathet Lao.

we both know that the AI will never build this. plus, i'm sure that many parts of the Trail existed prior to 1965 when the vietminh were attempting to expell the french. granted, parts of the Trail were in laos and other parts into cambodia. but much of it was in the central/southern portion of n vietnam and into the western portion of s vietnam as well.

 

[El Justo]

another wonder idea: Soviet Aid (n vietnam)

anti-aircraft guns, armour and kalishnikovs (AK 47 )

 

[Luddi VII]

Sound good El!!You must discuss the balance things with AK because I'm not an expert on that.

 

[AK47]

I like the Soviet Aid idea. Small wonder for communist governments only. Gives a certain unit every X turns. Cool !

 

[El Justo]

AK or Luddi,

what map is used for this scenario?

is it this one?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55018

this dude (el mency) makes awesome maps

 

[Luddi VII]

Yes it's the Indochina map by El Mencey. He's going to be put in the credit.And of course you and AK.

 

[El Justo]

ok...after playing around a little with the .biq, i've concluded that we have to figure how we want, or better yet, hope the AI reacts. especially with regard to the "reunification of Vietnam". whether the ai is cambodia, khmer rouge, north or south vietnam or whomever.

that is essentially what was going on in 1965; the commies wanted to unify vietnam and the south was fending off collapse.

naturally, vp locales could be palced in the larger/more populated cities in s vietnam. s vietnamese ai or human player would realistically guard them and ai or human player n vietnam would also seek them out. now the other civs other than the us, n & s vietnam and china should have units that are really, really inferior to the aforementioned.

now, the flavor settings...these will be important. maybe something like a 'western capitalism' flavor with the three alligned civs (us, s vietnam & thailand)...a "communist" flavor for n vietnam, china & khmer rouge. not sure about the others.

i have to agree with ak 47 on the point that it's important to maintain s vietnam's borders. so, putting an american city/base within the continuous s vietnam border doesn't make sense. it looks out of place and the culture flipping could become a problem. so, i added 4 american cities to the right extreme edge of the map. I,II,III & IV Corps. as you'll see, each city is a 6 tile island with the following strategic resources: iron, oil, aluminum & rubber. we should probably put each 4 of the strategic resources on seperate islands. whatever. also, if you look hard enough, you'll be able to see the vp locales along the HCM trail. i added them liberally. check it out...

 

[10Seven]

That looks really good.

You must have grabbed the Indochina map pretty quick - I thought ElM removed it soon after, not liking the finish.

 

[El Justo]

You must have grabbed the Indochina map pretty quick - I thought ElM removed it soon after, not liking the finish.

nah...it's still there

 

[Luddi VII]

This is looking good El.Could you play with the VP locations and tell us how the AI reacts??

 

[El Justo]

Could you play with the VP locations and tell us how the AI reacts??

sure.

after thinking about it some, i figure that EVERY s vietnamese city should have a VP locale. no?

if the n vietnamese civ is set at 'very aggressive', which i believe they are, and if the game is palyed on at least Monarch level, i reckon that the n vietnamese will push real, real hard into s vietnam.

this is based on my experience playing the ACW C3C version where the Confederate ai was absolutley unbelievable! they kept coming and coming and coming.

we want to preserve the 'infiltration' aspect of the scenario.

also, what do you guys think about a 'land mine' unit?

 

[El Justo]

another american flavor wonder idea: Air Cavalry Tactics

the vietnam war ushered in the era of helicopters in warfare. have you ever seen that scene in Apocolypse Now with that symphony score? i forget the name of the song

 

[Luddi VII]

Yes just put VP locations in every s vietnam city and the land mine unit idea is good.Could you check if you find a unit like that?And another thing: After you have done all the things you thinking to do and have done, could you send me and AK the BIQ??

 

[El Justo]

the land mine unit idea is good.Could you check if you find a unit like that?

i believe that there are a few on this site. they're kinda tricky though. at least as far as ai use of them. but if we 'pre-place' them and make them 'smart weapons' so the civ owning the unit can pass over them w/out absorbing damage i think that it could work. suggested stats: 0 attack/60 defense/1 mvmt and immobile but can be paradropped. these stats are what the unit creator (i forget who) suggests.

could you send me and AK the BIQ??

sure.

 

[El Justo]

what do you guys think about multi unit figures?
they could represent battallions or some sort of group of soldiers.
that ACW C3C scenario used them and they worked marvelously. they look real cool, too (if the graphics are alright)
only the larger/militaristic civs would be able to build them.
what do you think?

 

[AK47]

I think the landmine is a cool idea, if they work correctly. I've heard or read somewhere that nobody gets them to work correctly.

Personally, I get tired of MFUs quickly. I think they nice to look at for a while, but then get on my nerves. I also think we already have quite a bunch of different units as it is. Buildings and tech tree on the other hand...

Did you find a graphic for the "Soviet Aid" somewhere, or will I have to make 1 ?
Any more ideas like that ?

 

[El Justo]

Did you find a graphic for the "Soviet Aid" somewhere, or will I have to make 1 ?

no. not really. but i can picture something like the soviet flag in the background w/ soviet weaponry in the foreground. hey, if you can make it ak and it's not a real pain in the a$$, then do it.

Any more ideas like that ?

i posted these earlier. but to look at them all on the same pg will help...
Battlefield Communications...you know, radio contact w/ HQ, air force, etc. not sure of stats or whatever.

Air Cavalry Tactics which maybe allows the US to build hueys. not sure about the graphics. but this could be a prerequisite for...

MedEvac it's where the helicopters came in & took away the injured soldiers. saved alot of lives. maybe have Air Cav Tactics and Battlefield Communications as a prereq. not sure how to award for this advance though. extra HP? have it act as Battlefield Medicine?

Tunnel Digging for commie flavor. adds defensive bonus. my uncle was a "Tunnell Rat" (as they called them) in the war and the stories he's told!

i'll have to look at some of my books to get more ideas. these are off the top of my head and i have no idea for graphics. if we can integrate wonders/improvements w/ balanced gameplay then we may have ourself something here.

also, i'm not too storied in cambodian/loatian/thai history. so, as for the wonders, i'm unclear. but i'm sure i can come up w/ many for s & n vietnam as well as the us.
one last thing, maybe an improvement which builds Australian and/or Korean units. they did not play a huge role in the war. but they were allied w/ the us and did see combat alongside american soldiers.

the land mine thing we'll have to playtest i suppose.