'Science' is no better than 'religion'

Does this actually hold water, though?

Don't the people who get into airplanes at least have faith in the technology of flight. Can you really characterize the thoroughly scientific ignorant as rejecting science when they take a trip to sunny climes?

I think they're accepting that the science behind it works, even though they're maybe not doing so consciously.

If they truly rejected it, they wouldn't take the risk of travelling by plane, would they?

I'd reverse your position and say that the number of things you can do without faith in the scientific method is incredibly negligible, if any.

You only need faith when you lack knowledge, I think.

Yes; what he described is not rejecting science, it's just being apathetic to it, taking it for granted.

It is a criticism that fails in several levels; first, because it would be about the people choosing to do so, not about the method itself, which is the object of the debate; Second, because there is no need that everyone participates in science in order for it to work; But most important, because the supposed equal standing with people that embraces the scientific method assumes that the fruits of science are available to all (which they are), but that enjoying them is not contraditory with rejecting the drive behind them.

Reading such criticism, one would almost want that science wasn't an honest effort, which wield results that are independent of opinions and feelings. If things like medicine, combustion engines and computers would only work for those who embrace the scientific worldview, just like the intangible benefit of going to heaven is only available to those who embrace the "right" religion...

... well, let's just say it might have been the thing that would have swayed the public prevalence towards the first.

Regards :).
 
Lets conduct a scientific experiment:

Science: Yay!
Religion: Boo!

Well, it seems that I just have conclusively proven, using science in the form people in this thread percieve it to be, that science rocks religion's socks off.

On to prove that black is white, and determine the speed of an oncoming zebra.

I fail to see how this represents the opinion of anyone here defending the superiority of science. On the contrary; you said it is arbitrary, and everyone here is plain saying that the method behind it prevents science from being exactly that - arbitrary.

What is the "form people in this thread perceive it to be", that would be accurately described by your post?

Please, do tell. Preferably with quotes.

Regards :).
 
What is the "form people in this thread perceive it to be", that would be accurately described by your post?

Please, do tell. Preferably with quotes.

Regards :).
You are right to request this. I was going to use the method I have been pet-peeving against myself, which is waving your arm in some direction and going: "These guys think that". And they're never called out on it. Of course when I try, I have the missfortune of running into someone who does just that. Call me out on it.

Where were you all this time?!?!? ;)

I am new to this, I will learn. :) Anyway, about your request.
Which could kill the whole in a less than a day. science or religion? Science could with nuclear weapons, since we have more than enough nuclear weapons to destroy the whole world. Religion couldn't do that unless they took control of science in some way. Basically it's the application of how both are used is the key point.
Actually, most if not all of scientists start with a premise (a hypothesis / a theory), and then accumulate evidence to support their premise. :) I'm not sure if another way is even possible. It is hard to blindly feel around, you need some initial premises to know what you are trying to prove or disprove.

Half-time interlude: my direct inspiration for my post:
Why is that? Or is this just the typical "Science is awesome, religion sux, lololol" kind of post?

The problem with those anti-religious folk who are instead religiously devoted to science, is that taking science too seriously is actually very pseudoscientific. Science is all about disproving things. What pseudosciences like homeopathy do is go to great lengths to "scientifically establish" preconceptions that are already held. Both antireligionism and religion do hold certain preconceptions, but only the former falsely claims to be scientific about it (Me: creationism), while the latter case is confined to isolated groups like the Christian science movement that have no mainstream support from faithful at all.

With the progress into the holographic universe, science is evolving into religion even if the cosmological constant is ignored and blamed on the multiverse. Takes more faith to believe in the multiverse than a creator but its easier for some who have put their faith in science. Fun stuff, the holographic universe.

Bolded the parts that sparked my post.
 
Ziggy, as much as I value religion, do note that I'm an evolutionist and believe that a big bang occured billions of years ago (as opposed to 6000 years ago).
 
Ziggy, as much as I value religion, do note that I'm an evolutionist and believe that a big bang occured billions of years ago (as opposed to 6000 years ago).
I know you do.

Do note I value religion as well. :)

edit: Oh I see. I meant that religion can also claim to be scientific about it, as it is in the case of Creationism. Not claiming you're a creationist.
 
Ziggy, as more evidence comes about that this universe is a hologram the science which provides the evidence proves the point of a hologram creator. Certainly this universe can't be a hologram without a projector of some sort and a projectionist. :D The scientists running as fast as they can from a creator turned the miracle of the cosmological constant into the casino of the multiverse of infinite dead universes but running from the holographic universe is just not going to happen. There is no far fetched long odds convoluted unproven escapist dogma to run to this time. If none of this is real that may force reality to dawn on science. That reality discovered by science itself! If it has become the purpose of science to prove God doesn't exist it is failing miserably I'm happy to say. What an interesting source for a new revival of faith! While this generation looks upon the faith of preceding generations as mumbo jumbo, future generations may look at this one which rejects the creator as ignorant of the scientific facts.

Anyway, have fun with that. :)
 
Scientists being proven wrong does.

Not really. 'Scientists have found out that A causes B' gets reported every time a p-value of something interesting (A=chocolate, coffee, wine...; B=cancer, long life, happiness...) is lower than 0.05. That another experiment fails to reproduce it, usually is not.

Nobody, that is up for me to research. In some cases it's not easy, given the bs overload on the internet factor.. but in a lot of cases it's easy enough.

Let's say for example I want to figure out the scientific consensus on what the hell gravity is. I would go to wikipedia, read the article, and it would tell me the different theories that explain gravity, as well as possible theoretical models that scientists are working on, how much evidence is there for them, what the experts think, and so on. Then at the bottom there's a bunch of sources that I can follow up on. Being the very vigilant warpus that I am, I could then pose the question in /r/askscience on reddit, and ask the physicists there to tell me the scientific consensus on gravity. I could check other encyclopedias, physics textbooks, I could use google to see what's out there, and in the end I would probably come to the conclusion that ... {just a sec, checking} .. the general theory of relativity is the best theory we have that describes gravity.

Exactly. But to end your research you need to form your own opinion, which experts/textbooks/other resources to trust and which to discard, given the evidence presented to you. So in some sense you are already applying the scientific method yourself.

But Einstein is a convenient example to the opposed spectrum, because it's hard to imagine a stronger political pull than the rejection, from Einstein, of a Scientific theory, when he was at the peak of his popularity, having had amazed the world with his re-writing of natural law. And that is exactly what the probabilistic explanation of quantum physics got; Einstein dedicated the last two decades of his life to try proving that quantum physics could not be probabilistic, and he even created some darn smart experiments that would prove that explanation was wrong (I would recommend reading about the Einstein/Podowlsky/Rosen Paradox, for those interested).

But, as results always favored the probabilistically explanations when the dust settled (be it the Copenhagen, the "many worlds" or the Feynman theories of the quanta phenomena), not even the unrelenting pull from the man who held sway over the popular opinion on scientific matters at the time could stop the triumph of the functionally better explanation.

I do not disagree with your point, but you got your story wrong. Einstein did not propose experiments to decide between a local realistic theory and standard quantum mechanics. At the time, there was no way to resolve the EPR-paradox, so it was cast aside and did not receive much attention until the 1960ies. Only then John Bell came along and showed a way to test the paradox. And then it took until the 1980ies until there was evidence in favor of quantum mechanics. The fully conclusive test has not been done until now (but I believe it will be done in the next 5 years).


With the progress into the holographic universe, science is evolving into religion even if the cosmological constant is ignored and blamed on the multiverse. Takes more faith to believe in the multiverse than a creator but its easier for some who have put their faith in science. Fun stuff, the holographic universe.

I would agree that the holographic universe requires faith, but that is because it is not science at all.
 
Pangur Bán;13590021 said:
But this is meaningless in regard to the title. Because of knowledge accumulation/technology, they are doing it better than guys before them...are guys before 1800 religious and afterwards scientific? 1700? 1600?

Science has been around in all of recorded history. People hasn't always understood or cared for the distinction between science and religion and has mixed it to varying degrees, and its only relatively recently that this distinction has really been explored properly.

But for the purpose of the topic, the title is wrong because people were to afraid or didn't even know to question religion when it was the authority on the understanding of the universe. These days when science is the authority, people are just to rich and fat and lazy to bother questioning it.

I like the picture of someone today with more luxuries then kings and popes had way back then complaining about who tells them how the universe came into existence.

Why is that? Or is this just the typical "Science is awesome, religion sux, lololol" kind of post?

I just think people have no idea about what all the work that has gone into what we call "science" has done for them in their lives, and I find complaining about how science rules the day absurd because of this. Scientists will continue to tell us in a somewhat patronizing way about how stuff works and what we should think about this because people are to busy enjoying the luxury that science has provided for them to care about the depth of all this information and how it can be interpreted.
 
First, it's overly preoccupied with politics. While it is true that there is a degree of political interference in any human endeavor, the very heart of the scientific method is that it provides functional reasons to prefer a given explanation over another.

The politics v. human endeavor distinction! All human endeavor is political

As religion lacks such control, for being unable to offer function that gives context and relevance for their explanations, that system is hopeless, and can't separate the wheat from the tare, ending up stuck with random and dissociative thoughts instead of coherent and robust constructs. Nothing but tradition bases religion's disproportional representation in our public discourse... because unfortunately, people wanted answers long before we had effective ways of getting them. So the bad ways of the past stuck.

Like I said before, such a view of 'religion' is itself mythical. 'Science' is the name we give to what is at best, when we try to rationalize the term's use, a continuum of fields with experts trying understand and manipulate the cosmos. As a construct, 'science' is fundamentally political, seeking to differentiate some experts from others; while possessing a core of fundamental powerful and mystical disciplines such as cosmology, quantum physics, evolutioary biology, with hagiographic figures like Einstein and Darwin, experts at the edge contest their scientific status in search of the same public credibility for their work. This credibility, being political, will like all politically useful things become a tool of the powerful: some like economists and psychiatrists, who disguise and legitimize power, get 'scientific' status much more easily than other who usually who unravel and criticize it, like sociologists or literary theorists for instance.
 
Ziggy, as more evidence comes about that this universe is a hologram the science which provides the evidence proves the point of a hologram creator.
Please provide the evidence.
Anyway, have fun with that. :)
Have fun with this :)

That reality discovered by science itself! If it has become the purpose of science to prove God doesn't exist it is failing miserably I'm happy to say. What an interesting source for a new revival of faith! While this generation looks upon the faith of preceding generations as mumbo jumbo, future generations may look at this one which rejects the creator as ignorant of the scientific facts.
See what I mean FredLC and Kaiserguard?
 
If it has become the purpose of science to prove God doesn't exist it is failing miserably I'm happy to say.

What can I make of this statement?

It seems to me that the purpose of science is to discover the truth. Is it failing miserably in that? I don't think so. (Although, of course, the extent of what remains to be discovered will probably escape us for evermore.)

I'm really not at all sure that the purpose of any scientist is to prove God doesn't exist because that would be an impossible thing to attempt.

Let's turn this the other way though. If you're a religious person, and I'll assume you are from the tone of your post, and you have any evidence to show that God does exist, please show it to us and the rest of the world right now.

The most that science ever does is require that you show evidence for your claims. If this counts as attempting to prove that God doesn't exist, in your eyes, then I fear for acuity of your vision.
 
I just think people have no idea about what all the work that has gone into what we call "science" has done for them in their lives, and I find complaining about how science rules the day absurd because of this. Scientists will continue to tell us in a somewhat patronizing way about how stuff works and what we should think about this because people are to busy enjoying the luxury that science has provided for them to care about the depth of all this information and how it can be interpreted.

I am not anti-science. In fact, I am not the one who uses science to prove a point, in your case, that religion is nonsense. Using science to prove points is pretty much constitutes abuse of science, if it doesn't outright cross into pseudoscience territory.
 
Not really. 'Scientists have found out that A causes B' gets reported every time a p-value of something interesting (A=chocolate, coffee, wine...; B=cancer, long life, happiness...) is lower than 0.05. That another experiment fails to reproduce it, usually is not.

I don't disagree with you, and I know my word choice was misleading. This is not what I meant. I meant that when a prominent scientist is exposed as a fraud, it's news. Or, when a very important and mainstream result is based on flawed measurements, it's news.
 
This covers some of the science and provides an entertaining first person shooter experience. I must warn that there is some pretty bad language as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KcPNiworbo

The evidence is gathering Ziggy. There is bad language but the vid above covers what there is. Oh, and a bunch of guys paid to find global warming have found global warming. wow. How much global warming did you have to shovel last month? Just wait, that was fall! Winter should be even more interesting. ;)
 
You're out of you're depth Lancer. You're parroting words without understanding.

Re OP: I also think that putting scare quotes around a word can completely remove all meaning from it.
 
Have fun with this :)

That sounds like a challenge!

2014 to Be Hottest Year Ever Measured

This year will likely be the hottest on record for the planet, with global temperatures 1.03 degrees Fahrenheit higher than the 1961-to-1990 average, according to a new report from the World Meteorological Organization.

This would make 2014 the 38th consecutive year with an anomalously high annual global temperature.


The report uses data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, NASA and the United Kingdom's Met Office. To place the findings in a historical context, scientists usually compare temperatures with "normal" temperatures averaged over a 30-year stretch, usually 1961 to 1990.

Typical scaremongering.
1978 to 2014 is supposed to be 38 years of consecutive "high" temperatures but 1961 to 1990 is supposed to represent the "average"?
Overlap much?

I've taken a look at how they supposedly got temperatures from 1000AD to 1850AD without thermometers.

A whole bunch of tree ring blah blah blah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature_record_of_the_past_1000_years

They say the rings are wider during warm years and thinner during cold years.
A fine method to assign historical temperatures! :crazyeye:
Are the tree rings today jumbo sized compared to the ones from 50 years ago?


The method itself implies that plants grow better in warmer temperatures, but that goes against the narrative that all global warming is bad.
http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1954190,00.html

Even Plants May Not Like a Warmer World

Indeed, that unreliable lot.
The world gets warmer and their rings are probably all over the place.
We should just stick to temperature records from when thermometers actually existed, and wait for a larger data set to draw conclusions.


All the Global Warming enthusiasts were probably brainwashed by Ted Turner's 1990 eco-fascist cartoon as kids.


Link to video.

And now they've teamed up with the anti-colonialist movement to transfer money from the 1st world to the 3rd world. (To help fight global warming! mmmhmm)
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/12/05/obamas-climate-deal-with-china-backfires/

China offered new details on its commitment to rein in greenhouse gases and called on rich nations to speed up delivery of the $100 billion in annual climate-related aid they’ve promised by 2020. Su Wei, China’s lead climate negotiator, coupled his comments on China’s commitment with a call to accelerate funding for climate aid, shifting the pressure to industrialized nations, led by the U.S. and European Union, to do their part toward reaching an agreement next year. The “$10 billion is just one 10th of that objective,” and “we do not have any clear road map of meeting that target for 2020,” Su said. Climate aid is “a trust-building process,” he added.

I'm sure the word "annual" is a typo, as it implies each and every year. :eek:

I'm also sure poor nations will spend that $100 billion in free money (produced by burning mostly fossil fuels) to fight global warming with the same vigor that we spent tobacco lawsuit billions fighting smoking. :lol:


In the end, if global warming were as threatening as I keep hearing, there'd be crazy support for nuclear-powered everything.

Instead, all I see is this:

Link to video.
 
Oh right? That's you firmly in the global warming skeptics camp, then?
 
Hmmm... I don't think the OP got its fair share of criticism.

First, it's overly preoccupied with politics. While it is true that there is a degree of political interference in any human endeavor, the very heart of the scientific method is that it provides functional reasons to prefer a given explanation over another.

There is an interesting anecdote regarding relativity; A theory that faced grave criticism early on, because it challenged some very entrenched ideas about how the universe works, at a certain point Hitler said that he could line up over 100 reputable scientists that disagreed from Einstein. The famous response was: "if I was wrong, one would be enough".

But Einstein is a convenient example to the opposed spectrum, because it's hard to imagine a stronger political pull than the rejection, from Einstein, of a Scientific theory, when he was at the peak of his popularity, having had amazed the world with his re-writing of natural law. And that is exactly what the probabilistic explanation of quantum physics got; Einstein dedicated the last two decades of his life to try proving that quantum physics could not be probabilistic, and he even created some darn smart experiments that would prove that explanation was wrong (I would recommend reading about the Einstein/Podowlsky/Rosen Paradox, for those interested).

But, as results always favored the probabilistically explanations when the dust settled (be it the Copenhagen, the "many worlds" or the Feynman theories of the quanta phenomena), not even the unrelenting pull from the man who held sway over the popular opinion on scientific matters at the time could stop the triumph of the functionally better explanation.

Even when we assume science at it's very worst; the most conspiratorial perception, of a cabala of petty, out-of-touch man in white coats, worried with nothing but having their ideas prevailing; and at the same time we imagine religion at it's very best, as an honest effort to give good explanations to the world around (ps.: I do think the other way around is much more commom); still, science have in its DNA that virtuous quality, that golden principle that will allow effective, demonstrable criticism of bad ideas. Just like the impersonal system of Government created in western societies, there is no need that we have angels instead of man working the theses, the checks and balances are hardwired into the system itself.

As religion lacks such control, for being unable to offer function that gives context and relevance for their explanations, that system is hopeless, and can't separate the wheat from the tare, ending up stuck with random and dissociative thoughts instead of coherent and robust constructs. Nothing but tradition bases religion's disproportional representation in our public discourse... because unfortunately, people wanted answers long before we had effective ways of getting them. So the bad ways of the past stuck.

Anyway, because he said it much better than me, I would like to offer to the thread this inspired talk from the physicist David Deutsch, exactly on the topic of how to differentiate a valid explanation from an invalid one.

http://www.ted.com/talks/david_deutsch_a_new_way_to_explain_explanation

I would say that his choice of a religious myth as an example of a bad explanation is a coincidence, but I would be lying.

As an anecdotal response to the other main criticism on the OP, I wanted to say that science is hard, but never inscrutable. You can always go there and understand the process behind the conclusions. I am an example of that; as a Lawyer, I have no formal training in physics beyond high-school level. Nevertheless, I decided to learn about particle physics, relativity, and Superstring theory on my own, and today I can describe many of the current physics on these (I am yet to catch up on quantum gravity loops, though).

So, the trust in the chain of knowledge is just a pragmatic part of the process. If every person had to enunciate every single scientific principle on his own, we would still be stuck at the stone age; the advancement of knowledge is a collective methodical process, in contrast to the "revelations" of ready knowledge from religion. In a quote from another scientist that needs no introduction, Sir Isaac Newton: "If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."

In the end, though, the chain of trust is respected, because anyone can look at it and shake it's foundations. The great scientists of mankind are exactly the ones who did just that.

Try to question the word of prophets, though.

Regards :).

Great post! I loved the video of good explanations vs. bad explanations. The difference is in how many degrees of freedom are available to modify the explanation. In bad ones, there are many. In the best ones, there are none.
 
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