Scions documentation

[Thunder_Gr]

That can be up to hundreds, but it can also be 0, if no civs are following those religions or stop warring.

AV is already followed if Infernals are in the game. And if there is no war, you can go and kill some. This is infernals, and whoever plays them know very well how deadly they are.

Not pathetic, just balance them against other civs.

They are already pretty well balance with, even weaker than some, other civs.

 

[Valkrionn]

Ah, but the Infernals recieve population from any unit with the AV religion, so that's not really a valid argument. Honestly, I'd rather see Korinna buffed than the Emperor nerfed, aside from the Mark and possibly the creeper/HL mechanic. I've argued before that the lack of a guaranteed method of gaining population is enough to prevent the Scions being balanced in the same ways as other civs.

One problem brought up is the use of Awakened as settlers. I agree that in a game where spawns are going your way, you can expand much faster than an AI.... Rather than separating awakened and settlers, why not create a promotion allowing them to settle, and then give a random chance to gain it upon creation? 50% at least, I'd say, or they would have severe problems generating new cities.

 

[Methuselah]

Ah, but the Infernals recieve population from any unit with the AV religion, so that's not really a valid argument.

But it's harder in that they have to war themselves most likely. The Scions can literally sit back and gain pop without having to build up a force or anything.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

But it's harder in that they have to war themselves most likely. The Scions can literally sit back and gain pop without having to build up a force or anything.

Infernals exist to create a force. What other would they do? They are warmongers. They want to destroy everyone. They gain population the normal way they should be played...The comparison doesn't seem fit.

 

[Methuselah]

Infernals exist to create a force. What other would they do? They are warmongers. They want to destroy everyone. They gain population the normal way they should be played...The comparison doesn't seem fit.

You brought up the point that the scions can possibly gain no pop. I'm reminding you that there are other civs who can also have this problem, but lack overpowered buildings etc.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

You brought up the point that the scions can possibly gain no pop. I'm reminding you that there are other civs who can also have this problem, but lack overpowered buildings etc.

But they do not lack overpowered units, IIRC, right?

The Infernals is undoubtly one of the most overpowered civs in the mod, if not the most overpowered. And it is so on purpose. Give me their mechanics, I conquer everyone.

The Scions are not by any chance as strong, they are weaker than other civs on certain aspects, having strong points the culture and commerce.

Again, the mechanics are different. Just by having both being fallow, does not make them comparable, IMO.

 

[Valkrionn]

But it's harder in that they have to war themselves most likely. The Scions can literally sit back and gain pop without having to build up a force or anything.

How would you prefer them to gain population then? Solely through building it? That was tried in the original version of the civilization, with awakened cost going up with certain vital techs. It worked, but not very well. Honestly, the scions play differently just about every game, as you never know how the RNG is going to behave. I've had games where the first 300 turns gave me MAYBE 20 pop, and had to rely entirely on masses of legates for population. I've also had games where I was forced to either expand into yet another new city, or waste a pop point in a city that has no need for it. The way the Scions are designed prevents them being balanced towards other civs in all areas, and instead need to be balanced as a WHOLE. You can nitpick individual benefits all you like, but without examining the negatives also it will be meaningless. I'm fairly sure that after 7 months of development, and 3 months as an official part of FF, the Scions are reasonably well balanced as a whole. Some things I'd still advocate taking a look at for balance reasons, like the Mark, and others for gameplay/management reasons, like the Haunted Lands spread and Creepers, but those are relatively minor, and are mostly only affected now due to new features.

Edit: Agreed, the mechanic may be the same, but the specifics of the civs cause them to play drastically different. The one cannot be balanced by comparing it to the other. If you really want something like the Infernals, check the Legion of D'Tesh.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=276614

 

[Thunder_Gr]

If you really want something like the Infernals, check the Legion of D'Tesh.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=276614

I hope this was not a reference to me. I do not wan't something like Infernals. If I wanted, I would have played the Infernals instead!

I want the Scions, and I wish they are not nerfed anymore, because, as you said, I believe them balanced as a whole. I totaly agree with your arguments about the RNG and the rest.

As for haunted lands, I still think the number of turns for ghostwalkers to create them should be 6 turns, as it was.

 

[Valkrionn]

I hope this was not a reference to me. I do not wan't something like Infernals. If I wanted, I would have played the Infernals instead!

I want the Scions, and I wish they are not nerfed anymore, because, as you said, I believe them balanced as a whole. I totaly agree with your arguments about the RNG and the rest.

As for haunted lands, I still think the number of turns for ghostwalkers to create them should be 6 turns, as it was.

No, it was directed at Methuselah. And I've already described the way I'd like HL to work, but that might be enough to unbalance them so I'm not holding my breath for it.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I've only played a couple games with the scions lately, but I have a couple things I want to say:

1) awakening spawn mechanic: this is still highly random, right? TOO random imho. SOME randomness is cool, but having one civ's success be so dependent of the RNG is not fun imho. I suggest to make it only partially random, so that you're sure you're eventually going to get one, but the exact turn is unpredictable.

2) difficulty level affecting awakening spawn: I don't like this tbh, I think it's redundant with the other bonuses the AIs get at higher difficulty levels. Deity is already challenging enough without having to also deal with less population, thank you


3) having Aristocracy give a boost to awakening spawn chance: I don't like this either. since using Aristocracy screams "spam farms everywhere" , and the scions cannot build farms except on resources... you get the point. of course, you could add a scion-only civic that's similar to aristocracy but instead of giving farms -1F +2C it gives +1C to cottages or something.

 

[Valkrionn]

I've only played a couple games with the scions lately, but I have a couple things I want to say:

1) awakening spawn mechanic: this is still highly random, right? TOO random imho. SOME randomness is cool, but having one civ's success be so dependent of the RNG is not fun imho. I suggest to make it only partially random, so that you're sure you're eventually going to get one, but the exact turn is unpredictable.

2) difficulty level affecting awakening spawn: I don't like this tbh, I think it's redundant with the other bonuses the AIs get at higher difficulty levels. Deity is already challenging enough without having to also deal with less population, thank you


3) having Aristocracy give a boost to awakening spawn chance: I don't like this either. since using Aristocracy screams "spam farms everywhere" , and the scions cannot build farms except on resources... you get the point. of course, you could add a scion-only civic that's similar to aristocracy but instead of giving farms -1F +2C it gives +1C to cottages or something.

1. I don't know about this... Kind of the whole flavour of the civ. If you want guaranteed population, build it.

2. This I can't really argue for or against. I play up to emperor, not really any higher usually.

3. I'd have to say no to that one..... I agree Aristocracy isn't much use for the Scions aside from the spawn boost, but not entirely sure that should be changed. Just because there is a better civic they could use, doesn't mean it needs to be improved. I like the fact that the spawn boost is on a otherwise bad civic choice for them. Plus, ther are too many unique civics already, and the Scions already have Glory. If you really want a new civic, maybe rebalance Glory to be a government civic, and attach the spawn bonuses to that?

 

[Vehem]

No objection to the compared to any other building available to any other civ part, but, on the other hand, what about the multitute of benefits taken by food resources and farm improving techs the Scions never get?
Even whole civics become useless for them, like Conquest, Aristocracy, Agrarianism etc....

That one balances itself by the fact that every tile in a city cross can be a plains workshop and the city will still thrive, even grow rapidly. Their non-reliance on food is (overall) a benefit, not a difficulty.

 

[Iceciro]

It really is dependant on how you play the Scions - firstly, while you don't auto-grow you can choose where to put your populations. You also gain benefits of settling places other races cannot - No food or fresh water, but plenty of hills? YES. While nearly inhospitable for some, due to inability to grow until windmills, the Scions can set up super-massive production cities in these same spots.

 

[xienwolf]

@Xienwolf: You mean that you can actually harvest these resources for 5 turns even when you don't have the tech!?! OMG, that would be awasome!! Please verify this!! I will have the ritual cast constantly if it is true!!

You cannot connect (ie - Trade) the resources, but by improving them you can get the better tile yields. So normally you have a blank coast tile giving your 2 1 and if you have Heron Throne 1roduction:. Building a workboat doesn't let you do anything there at all, that is the yield you will always have. But by Dowsing to see the tile and finding that there are Pearls, now you CAN use a workboat on the tile and gain the bonus 3 or whatever it is. The bonus will go away when Dowsing wears off, but not the fishing boats, so anytime that you decide to complete the ritual again you'll be gaining extra commerce (but at no time will you be able to offer to trade your Pearls to someone else in Diplomacy, because you won't GAIN Pearls, you just get extra tile yields)

 

[odalrick]

So despite the background stuff I'd rather drop Charismatic than Arcane. Both make sense for the background, but Arcane really delivers on making the civ more focused on magic. IMO Charismatic makes it easier to be a warmonger.

Arcane does very little to make a civ focused on magic. Unique units and buildings are much more important. Arcane is not much more than a marker on those civs that have those uniques.

As such moving Arcane to Korinna, might be flavourful but not really affect anything. Also, it would be another late game strength for her, when she really needs an early game boost.

Also on the note of Scion spellcasters: The whole necromancy thing is not very useful, in my opinion. Banefire, for example, is a horribly weak spell that requires you to risk the life of your caster to be able to cast it once. I haven't seen the Wraith Lord necromancy spell... but that's because I've never had the opportunity to be safely attacking with a Wraith Lord. Could be that it's entirely worth it. But Banefire, at the very least, seems very outclassed by pretty much every other combat spell.

If you want a damage dealer invest in Maelstrom or other damage dealers. The advantage of Balefire is that you don't have to get any mana or spend any promotions on it.

The only reasonable way for mages to gain experience and advancing is combat. Getting +1 strength for something you should already be doing is great. Add +1 xp per combat and higher base strength and you have the best mages in the game.

(Note that I said mages. Summoners aren't mages, they're leaders.)

About the Emperors Mark:

Yeah - the ring thing is really the point, not having it help cultural victory. There should be some way to limit it...

If the ring is really the only important thing, just add 20 culture to the settlement when it is founded.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

You cannot connect (ie - Trade) the resources, but by improving them you can get the better tile yields. ... * snip* ...The bonus will go away when Dowsing wears off, but not the fishing boats, so anytime that you decide to complete the ritual again you'll be gaining extra commerce (but at no time will you be able to offer to trade your Pearls to someone else in Diplomacy, because you won't GAIN Pearls, you just get extra tile yields)

Alright, I may not be able to trade it, but will I be able to get bronze weapons promotions if I build a mine and a road over a bronze deposit revealed to me by Dowsing?

 

[hbar]

Alright, I may not be able to trade it, but will I be able to get bronze weapons promotions if I build a mine and a road over a bronze deposit revealed to me by Dowsing?

Nope, you need the Bronze Working tech for bronze weapons.

 

[Vehem]

Nope, you need the Bronze Working tech for bronze weapons.

Correct.

There are two stages to dealing with a resource. The first is being able to see it, the second is being able to trade it. If you can see it, you can build an improvement on it to gain the increased yields. If you can trade it, it appears in the city screen of all cities that are part of your trade network and then you gain all of the associated benefits (such as bronze weapons).

In a lot of cases, being able to see a resource and being able to trade it share a technology. Dowsing bypasses the tech requirement to see a resource, but not to add it to your trade network.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I am over turn 400 in a standard time game, huge map. I intend to let it finish on time, just to make sure the MAF problem is gone. By the way, no CTDs either

A few more observations. The creepers should at least retain their current lifetime in each stage, and perhaps increase the blossom and rooting faces.
Since only young creepers are now invisible, there is no need to make it so invisibility can be lifted.
The creeper cycle introduced a fine strategic element for when it is best to use, and make it make sense to keep a number of creepers in strategic positions.

My conclusion so far is that the AI counts creepers as military units, meaning that it calculates your military strength including them, before deciding if you are too strong to attack. This IMO, should be changed. I only had a handful of Ghostwalkers and approx 20 creepers, and noone declared war on me, instead they were asking from my "mighty" empire to assist them in their wars.

I had written for the lack of incentives down the Arcane line, I just had forgotten about Necropolis and Flesh studio. However, in none of my 3 games with the Scions so far I could build the flesh studio, since there was no body mana and no mana nodes in the vicinity of my empire.

The spawn rate for creepers appears to be just fine for me. I used them to have constant spies all over the continent and, when I accepted to help someone, they did a nice job in poisoning the enemy, although all of them lost. I managed to create a couple haunted lands, though, with 2 retreating young creepers .
BtW, it appears that the blossomed(If I am not mistaken) creeper's ability is very easy to resist. I don't think I saw a percentage written in the description, can you enlighten me on the subject?

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Thanks for the quick responce on the bronze weapons matter. It still appears that dowsing is more useful than what you could think when first reading about it.