Serial rapist may only serve 9 years

[Zelig]

Really? If that is the point of the justice system to simply rehabilitate, then why have jail at all?

Deterrence.

 

[warpus]

Really? If that is the point of the justice system to simply rehabilitate, then why have jail at all?

To keep these people away from society, until they are ready to rejoin it.

 

[IglooDame]

If it's possible to rehabilitate murderers, then it's possible to rehabilitate rapists. Not ALL of them mind you... but that's not what I'm saying.

Not all the murderers, either, right?

It seems to me that there are a variety of 'types' of murders/murderers. Negligence, depraved indifference, murder as part of a theft or for financial or other personal gain, murder for some political/social/religious cause (e.g. assassination), a fight resulting in mortal injuries, or murder for pleasure (i.e. in the mental illness category).

How many different classes of rape are there?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't think jail's main purpose should be to punish. It should be to rehabilitate.

There is also a prevention factor, in that the inmate is not going to commit further crime while incarcerated (generally speaking). Balancing rehabilitation and prevention is the intent of the parole system, which ideally assesses the rehabilitation status and lets go of inmates who are no longer a threat to society. Unfortunately that doesn't really work for a number of reasons.

First and foremost the system gets hijacked by the punishment crowd, which it is not designed to deal with. People who don't care if the rehabilitation has happened or not because they haven't gotten enough gratification from the suffering of the incarcerated will always pitch a fit.

Secondly and probably just as importantly, rehabilitation is very hard to measure, so the task of the parole board is well nigh impossible. Since they are faced with an impossible task they are prone to looking at alternative determining factors rather than actual rehabilitation...and of course the most powerful alternative among determining factors is always money. Parole ends up determined not by rehabilitation, but goes to the inmate with resources to generate support for his release to appear at the hearing or the even better resources to just bribe the parole board outright.

 

[warpus]

@IglooDude, I'm not really sure, to be honest, but yes, I would say that with any serious offense, some people are going to be rehabilitatable and some won't be.

Mind you, with the amount of rape that seems to happen at American jails, rape doesn't seem to be really thought of as "such a big deal" from where I'm sitting. It seems like people are either condemning it to be the worst thing ever, or laughing at it. No middle ground. A bit of an oddity.

Sorry, gotta run. But Tim, does jail as a preventative measure even work? We know now that for example capital punishment doesn't work as a deterrence factor against murder. Does jail work as a deterrence factor against rape and other serious crimes?

 

[Farm Boy]

I didn't bring up the Scarlet A branding lists as evidence of a serial rapist endemic. Now, I am not arguing whether or not there is any such endemic, but I will argue with the use of those lists as evidence.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Sorry, gotta run. But Tim, does jail as a preventative measure even work? We know now that for example capital punishment doesn't work as a deterrence factor against murder. Does jail work as a deterrence factor against rape and other serious crimes?

I didn't say deterrence, and no as deterrence it is a complete bust. I said prevention and meant much the same thing that you said in a cross post; "To keep these people away from society, until they are ready to rejoin it." During the process of rehabilitation the incarcerated inmate has very restricted access to committing crimes. My personal crime of choice literally cannot be committed while incarcerated.

 

[Crackerbox]

There isn't any rehabilitation of rapists in prison. For that matter, there's scant rehabilitation for any prisoners in America.

The only rehabilitation that I'm aware of for violent criminals is a test study in which violent offenders were given a chance to become EMTs. In that case, some of them became more empathetic when working with the suffering and the dying. It also gave them a marketable skill upon leaving the prison.

One theory of sexual abusers is that they were abused in childhood. They were powerless to do anything against their perpetrators, and thus when reaching an older age, then dominated others. This form of sociopathic tendencies is a result of perverse nurturing.

The forms of their sexual unions tends to be violent and risky. Ultimately their paraphilias are so strong that illegal expression of them becomes common. By the time they're caught, they may have committed many rapes. But the chance of them getting caught is slim. Some of them then end up as psychopaths and not likely to ever act within the norms of civilized society.

The only way we have to rehabilitate is chemical castration to negate testosterone levels. Mere physicial castration is not suffice as the act is mostly about violent humilation and torture of the victim and may or may not include penetration of themselves. How would you ever monitor this so that it wasn't very expensive to oversee?

Truthfully, a long mental stay in an excellent facility would seem to be the pat answer...until you look at the many people who never get any benefit from their stay in even the best facilties. The damage occured so long ago, and was so perpetual, and then they got positive reinforcement of their desire, that reversal is nearly improbable and practically impossible.

If you think for a second that rehabilitation occurs in prison, maybe you should volunteer at one, or if a Christian accept it as ministry. What you'll find is a steady amount of sexual and physical abuse by other inmates and possibly by the guards. The rapist who enters prison may end up as a more intense rapist due to practice and learning while incarcerated.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you think for a second that rehabilitation occurs in prison, maybe you should volunteer at one, or if a Christian accept it as ministry.

I'm just guessing here, but I bet the inmates have a much better idea about what really goes on than the bleeding heart sucker volunteer minister who comes in to lead a prayer group. So if you are really curious, go get arrested.

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[Crackerbox]

I'd say, Tim, that the criminals who commit violent crimes like rape and especially serial rape, have little to no idea on how to rehabilitate themselves. But it's interesting that you think that would work though. Where's the evidence that this has worked in history?

What we do know about rapists is demonstrable recidivism. I've linked to that evidence. The only thing jails do is protect the public, at a very high price, and typically allow them to learn how to do worse things whilst there.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'd say, Tim, that the criminals who commit violent crimes like rape and especially serial rape, have little to no idea on how to rehabilitate themselves. But it's interesting that you think that would work though. Where's the evidence that this has worked in history?

Where in God's name did I say anything that could in any way be construed as "inmates can rehabilitate themselves". If you are going to hang an incredibly stupid strawman, hang it on someone else.

 

[Crackerbox]

I'm just guessing here, but I bet the inmates have a much better idea about what really goes on than the bleeding heart sucker volunteer minister who comes in to lead a prayer group. So if you are really curious, go get arrested.

You made the claim that the inmates have a better idea. Explain what you mean. Your statement is so out there, it's really impossible to defend. My statement was on rehabilitation. I can't help it if you cannot follow through on that idea, but chose to rail against Christian ministry of all things.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You made the claim that the inmates have a better idea. Explain what you mean. Your statement is so out there, it's really impossible to defend.

You suggest that to find out what goes on in prisons one should volunteer at one.

I suggest that inmates have a much better idea of what actually goes on in prisons than volunteers have.

It is self evident and needs no defense.

If you had bothered to read it instead of winging off on your tangent you would have recognized that I'm sure, because it was a pretty simple statement.

 

[Crackerbox]

You suggest that to find out what goes on in prisons one should volunteer at one.

I suggest that inmates have a much better idea of what actually goes on in prisons than volunteers have.

It is self evident and needs no defense.

If you had bothered to read it instead of winging off on your tangent you would have recognized that I'm sure, because it was a pretty simple statement.

There is nothing reasonable and self-evident that getting incarcerated helps one to have a better idea. It's a ludicrous idea that one should intentionally choose to get incarcerated.

If anyone spent any time whatsoever visiting and volunteering, you'd see that many are victimized in prison, were victims in early childhood, that rehabilitation doesn't happen there, that rapes are common, and that the system is not only poorly designed, it makes more efficient rapists.

So no, I don't think your idea is a valid one. I think it's a rotten idea. By the time a person becomes a psychopath serial rapist, I doubt they can shed light upon what goes on in prison. They're too mentally deranged to be of much assistance.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

There is nothing reasonable and self-evident that getting incarcerated helps one to have a better idea. It's a ludicrous idea that one should intentionally choose to get incarcerated.

If anyone spent any time whatsoever visiting and volunteering, you'd see that many are victimized in prison, were victims in early childhood, that rehabilitation doesn't happen there, that rapes are common, and that the system is not only poorly designed, it makes more efficient rapists.

So no, I don't think your idea is a valid one. I think it's a rotten idea. By the time a person becomes a psychopath serial rapist, I doubt they can shed light upon what goes on in prison. They're too mentally deranged to be of much assistance.

Please suggest any way to have a better idea about what happens in prison than being an inmate.


For the record, the strikeout of "bleeding heart sucker" wasn't intended as an insult, it is just how the vast preponderance of inmates look at the "Christian volunteer". "Oh, I was raped, tortured, treated horrifically" can and often does generate a very useful sympathetic response, so inmates use it.

Ultimately, the whole "find out what prison is like" by volunteering is actually just "find out what inmates will tell you when you volunteer" and has nothing to do with finding out what prison is like.

 

[classical_hero]

To keep these people away from society, until they are ready to rejoin it.

If they are away from society then that is a form of Punishment, since they can't lives the lives as they want to.

@Zelig, if it was a deterrent, then there would be no crime. Obviously that is not the case.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If they are away from society then that is a form of Punishment, since they can't lives the lives as they want to.

This isn't necessarily true. They can't live their lives as you want to live yours. That doesn't necessarily make being away from society punishment for them.

At any rate, if the intent is to hang on to them to protect society during the course of their rehabilitation it makes reasonable sense. If the intent is 'incarceration as punishment' it really doesn't.

The core problem with the rehabilitation idea though is that it is always a wing and a prayer when you release them, because there is no way to look at someone while they are incarcerated and accurately predict how they will act when they are not.

 

[Crackerbox]

Volunteering in prison is about advocacy to protect the prisoner. Not all prisoners are violent ones. If someone thinks all Christians do is lead Bible studies, then they don't understand prison ministry whatsoever.

The violent inmate who is a rapist is certainly not equipped to describe what would be beneficial for them or others. Frankly, many prisoners are sociopaths or psychopaths, which are medical conditions, and so if we are serious about rehabilitation, then we'd work on controlling recidivism and getting them more normalized. Asking seriously ill people who have been that way since childhood, is not a logical way to cure them. They're certainly not objective about their environment, prone to lying, prone to harming others, and will use just about any tactic to get out early.

The very insidious nature of sociopaths and psychopaths is that their moral framework is nearly absent, and they only think of bettering themselves and masking their pathological behavior. Why in the world would they be experts with any valid ideas about what happens within?

So no, I don't think the ridiculous idea of polling prisoners has any merit, nor the incredibly ludicrous idea of intentionally committing a crime to get incarcerated has any merit either.

 

[warpus]

If they are away from society then that is a form of Punishment, since they can't lives the lives as they want to.

@Zelig, if it was a deterrent, then there would be no crime. Obviously that is not the case.

Sure, it's a punishment as well. But if you don't have rehabilitation as your #1 poriority, then these people are just going to re-offend once they get out. And what's the point in that?

 

[Crackerbox]

Sure, it's a punishment as well. But if you don't have rehabilitation as your #1 poriority, then these people are just going to re-offend once they get out. And what's the point in that?

Precisely warpus. That is the history of incarceration in its present modalities in America today.

I'm of the belief that banishment as it was used in history would both offer a protection to society and force them to work together to form small cells of civilization. I seriously doubt barring intensive and lengthy mental hospital stays, that any rapists of serious crimes (not statutory) can be cured.

The real issue is catching early child abuse instead. You might be able to help them. It's doubtful you can help the criminal with a long history of child abuse.