Serial rapist may only serve 9 years

[Farm Boy]

Sure, it's a punishment as well. But if you don't have rehabilitation as your #1 poriority, then these people are just going to re-offend once they get out. And what's the point in that?

Deterrence/fearofpunishment is a happy byproduct of punishment when it happens. Rehabilitation is a happy byproduct of punishment done well. Far as I can tell, punishment's primary purpose is to make everyone who plays by the rules feel good enough about playing by the rules that most of the time people just consider it easier and better to do so. They feel things are just. Just go along and get along. So long as people think punishment is fair enough for the people playing by the rules it can almost be anything. A firm scolding. A fine. A bullet to the brain for jaywalking. Lifetime unemployability for taking a leak. Whatever.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So no, I don't think the ridiculous idea of polling prisoners has any merit

Yet you think that volunteering so that you can get in there and poll prisoners does have some sort of merit...or at least you suggested it as a way to "find out what is really going on".

So, now that we agree that is a ridiculous idea, I shall be moving on.

 

[Crackerbox]

Yet you think that volunteering so that you can get in there and poll prisoners does have some sort of merit...or at least you suggested it as a way to "find out what is really going on".

So, now that we agree that is a ridiculous idea, I shall be moving on.

Nope. I totally disagree that volunteering and advocacy for prisoners is a ridiculous idea. That's YOUR idea, not mine.

Advocacy is about going in to witness what has happened and is happening as an independent observer. It's about trying to get rehabilitation, job training, and then facilitating their success outside of prison. Otherwise, the ex-con then falls right back into the same pattern.

86% of Federal prisoners did victimless crimes.

Not every prisoner is violent. Many are scared kids with drug convictions. You've got monsterous people (murderers and rapists) in there, hardened criminals, and little more than unskilled teenagers with minor drug convictions inside a prison. Prison ministry is basically about helping the ones who might be rehabilitated, and not thinking all of these folks are the same.

The seriously monsterous folks who murder and rape should be treated within mental health facilities. Some murders are accidental but rape isn't. No one sorta raped someone. It was premeditated, violent, and probably nothing like you image as a consensual sex event, but likely happened with mutilation, broken bones, lacerations, and the like. These can't be helped in prison.

 

[Farm Boy]

Cutting rape as the only cut and dry crime where there is no damnedable grey area anywhere in the definition across all cases and persons is both inaccurate and dangerous.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Nope. I totally disagree that volunteering and advocacy for prisoners is a ridiculous idea. That's YOUR idea, not mine.

Volunteering and advocacy for prisoners is a fine idea, it just doesn't provide a lot of access to knowing what goes on in prisons. Once again, if you are going to hang a really wild strawman please hang it on someone else.

The idea that is ridiculous is that a "volunteer observer" is going to come away knowing more about what goes on in prisons than an inmate does.

You attributing a myriad of ideas that are patently absurd to me is not going to change that. It would be easier for you to just agree that your initial recommendation about "how to know what really goes on in prison" was flawed and move on. It was clearly intended to enhance the authority of your posts on the subject, as it portrays you as 'someone who has volunteered and really knows', but the longer you go on trying to defend the concept the more people will recognize the basic flaw in it, so you are actively undermining your own credibility.

 

[Crackerbox]

No Tim, you simply are biased against Christianity working in prisons to be advocates for the prisoners. Why you are, is not my business. But disregarding the major impact that Christianity has had on the prisoners and ex-cons is disputed solely by you. Provide evidence that it doesn't help.
...
The reality is that it's impossible to rehabilitate rapists in prisons, and it doesn't happen while there, only incarceration. I seriously doubt any rapist can be rehabilitated (excluded cases of statutory rape).

 

[Valka D'Ur]

But I would also like to reiterate that I'm fine with 20+ years or life for something brutal like this. But for a single offense that does not involve murder, it seems wayyyyy over the top.

What about if the victim sustains prolonged psychological damage, or injuries that lead to a chronic disability? What if the victim later commits suicide? Murder isn't the only long-term conclusion of rape that can effectively end normal life for the victim.

The only reasonable solution is banishment to Antarctica.

Whereupon they would survive... how? The people who live there are scientists from many different countries. They have a hard enough time coping themselves, and you're in favor of building a prison there? So much for the environment, and hello to the extinction of endangered species and the ecosystem there.

I'm of the belief that banishment as it was used in history would both offer a protection to society and force them to work together to form small cells of civilization.

Banishment only offers protection to the society that does the banishing. It does nothing to cure the problem itself, and only serves to move the problem somewhere else. An obvious example would be the members of the clergy (no matter which religion) who get transferred instead of jailed/rehabilitated. And how many cells of criminals actually end up creating a civilized, law-abiding society?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Banishment only offers protection to the society that does the banishing. It does nothing to cure the problem itself, and only serves to move the problem somewhere else. An obvious example would be the members of the clergy (no matter which religion) who get transferred instead of jailed/rehabilitated. And how many cells of criminals actually end up creating a civilized, law-abiding society?

Well, technically the "civilization of the banished" can generally be counted on to place a very high priority on invasion of the banishers and getting retribution, so it really doesn't offer much in the way of protection.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Volunteering and advocacy for prisoners is a fine idea

No Tim, you simply are biased against Christianity working in prisons to be advocates for the prisoners.

I am all for anyone volunteering, advocating, whatever. It still doesn't change that the people most likely to know what goes on in prisons are the inmates, not the advocates.


Dressing the strawman in Christianity makes it no less wild. Please try to hang it on someone else.

 

[warpus]

What about if the victim sustains prolonged psychological damage, or injuries that lead to a chronic disability? What if the victim later commits suicide? Murder isn't the only long-term conclusion of rape that can effectively end normal life for the victim.

All good points.

I don't really know much about law to comment, to be honest, but it's just that.. well.. 20 years seems like too much. Saying this probably makes me look like a horrible person, but I weigh it with the terms we dish out for other crimes - and compare. I'm no legal expert, so my opinion doesn't carry much weight, and I do feel that every rape should be punished with the full extent of the law.. but I've seen plenty criminals commit homicide and get far less than that. That doesn't seem right. All these should be proportional in some way.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

All good points.

I don't really know much about law to comment, to be honest, but it's just that.. well.. 20 years seems like too much. Saying this probably makes me look like a horrible person, but I weigh it with the terms we dish out for other crimes - and compare. I'm no legal expert, so my opinion doesn't carry much weight, and I do feel that every rape should be punished with the full extent of the law.. but I've seen plenty criminals commit homicide and get far less than that. That doesn't seem right. All these should be proportional in some way.

While the point is good, it relates directly to imprisonment as punishment, in that it examines whether the term is sufficient to redress the wrong done the victim. From a realistic standpoint, this is impossible. No amount of imprisonment, or any other punishment, can undo the damage.

Valka, I'm not saying this as 'punishment is not called for'. It may very well be called for. I'm just trying to clarify that your position is not the same imprisonment for rehabilitation position Warpus was coming from, so rectifying them on the matter of duration of sentence is not simple, if even doable.

 

[Crackerbox]

There is no possible way to cure serious psychopath rapists. If you know of some miracle rehabilitation, by all means post that information here.

Banishment would only isolate them and force them to form their own society. They would be largely responsible for caring for themselves and given tools and supplies.

We wouldn't banish typical criminals in Federal prison, as they committed victimless crimes. They should be rehabilitated, not just incarcerated.

We might medically house in secure units violent rapists in mental wards, use chemical castration, but it's unlikely that any pharmacologic treatment, nor counseling, could ever undo the almost certain child abuse that began that road to rape. I do not have a lot of sympathy for violent rapists. I do have a lot of sympathy for the victims and their families. It would be a tough sell to use this strategy.

Our current 5.4 years for rape, and what's more likely... less than 2 years for a lesser charge, isn't working whatsoever. The only thing that might be working is arming the public with guns.

 

[Zelig]

@Zelig, if it was a deterrent, then there would be no crime. Obviously that is not the case.

If not paying taxes was legal, I would never pay any taxes. Obviously, I'm being deterred by the legal consequences.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If not paying taxes was legal, I would never pay any taxes. Obviously, I'm being deterred by the legal consequences.

Really?

I pay sales tax because at the point of sale it gets collected by someone else, and if I want the goods I have to let them collect the tax.

Most people pay income tax because their employer collects it and it is a condition of employment.

As far as I know, not paying property tax isn't even a crime...it is just grease you offer to the palms of those who have the authority to take your property so that they won't.

You can say that the store, and your employer, only do the dirty work of collecting from you because they fear the legal consequences, but in actuality for them the greasing of the palms is just a cost of doing business.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

While the point is good, it relates directly to imprisonment as punishment, in that it examines whether the term is sufficient to redress the wrong done the victim. From a realistic standpoint, this is impossible. No amount of imprisonment, or any other punishment, can undo the damage.

Valka, I'm not saying this as 'punishment is not called for'. It may very well be called for. I'm just trying to clarify that your position is not the same imprisonment for rehabilitation position Warpus was coming from, so rectifying them on the matter of duration of sentence is not simple, if even doable.

Warpus is a much more even-tempered and tolerant person than I am, on a number of issues. But then I've had the experience of being honestly afraid that a guy in my vicinity had rape on his mind, and being glad that I was carrying a knife. Not that it likely would have offered much protection against someone really determined. This happened back in my first year of college, on a camping trip with my dad, his then-current girlfriend, and some of her kids. It was her adult son who kept trying to get me alone, and every instinct kept telling me to keep away from him.

The only thing that might be working is arming the public with guns.

Yeah, there are already companies marketing pink and purple guns to women. Last I read a couple of days or so ago, was that they were doing this in India....

 

[Crackerbox]

As law enforcement doesn't prevent rapes, only investigates the wounded who are raped to collect a semen sample, or investigate a murder rape, then maybe it would be wisdom to own a firearm to prevent a rape. But hey, that's just good old common sense.

If people feel confident that when they're raped for the police to catch the rapist, then don't bother to arm yourselves.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

There was that lady who got shot to death in the WalMart by her three year old. Nobody is raping her, so apparently the 'arm yourself' plan worked in her case.

 

[Farm Boy]

Classy.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Classy.

I've been called worse. Deservedly so.

 

[Zelig]

Really?

I pay sales tax because at the point of sale it gets collected by someone else, and if I want the goods I have to let them collect the tax.

Most people pay income tax because their employer collects it and it is a condition of employment.

My province doesn't have sales tax, I could mostly avoid federal sales tax by ordering goods from China and not reporting them.

I do consulting work, I report my own income on that.

As far as I know, not paying property tax isn't even a crime...it is just grease you offer to the palms of those who have the authority to take your property so that they won't.

I don't know about America, but illegal acts aren't necessarily criminal offenses. Since those who have the authority to take your property from you also have the authority to make laws defining what is and isn't legal, not paying property tax almost certainly isn't legal.

edit: Though I rent, so property tax isn't applicable in that sense to me anyway.