SGFN-08: Random AWM Succession Game

[DWetzel]

Lurker's comment:
I was thinking the same thing. Here is the same dotmap, but made from the most recent save (I had made it already before Lanzelot posted).

Spoiler :

The bright yellow dot, as pointed out by Lanzelot, is easiest to reach. Also has workers nearby for making improvements, so it's an easy choice.

Landmass is still a mystery. Pangaea? Continents? Archipelago? Out of curiousity alone I would build a curragh!
I filled in 'Barracks?' on my previous pic because DWetzel had made a shout for that, but I hadn't thought about it myself.

I like that dotmap, except that I'd shift red dot 1N (to use the BG without cultural expansion), and then as a result probably shift pink dot 1N also (though that's probably a push, and it depends on how things look assuming that we've eliminated Berlin and chopped some forests).

And on reflection, probably a curragh is right for Konigsberg before a barracks. Net, it probably doesn't matter much if at all. My thinking in building a barracks is that we could use another town at like 4-5 spt churning out units quickly, especially since unit support will not be a major issue by the time a barracks is online. Ideally we would get our second contact when we are about to get the Library, and not a moment sooner.

 

[Bucephalus]

The SF will produce 10 more towns in the 40 turns before Republic. By that time unit upkeep shouldn't be that critical anymore.

lurker's comment:

10 more towns = 10 more unit support; negligable in AW, and it won't get better until you have size 7 cities, something that will require raising the lux slider considerably.

 

[DWetzel]

Let's for a moment compare the following two scenarios:

• Scenario 1: We research Philo in 10 and take CoL as free tech. Then we do Masonry in 6 (if we want the Pyramids), and aftwards Republic in 25 (perhaps even faster). So in around 40 turns we can be in Republic. Let's be pessimistic and say we have 50 turns before war wearines becomes untenable. Makes a total of 90 turns, 40 of which will be spent in Despotism, and 50 in Republic.
• Scenario 2: We research Philo in 10 and take Literature. Then we need 5 for CB, 10 for Mysticism, 12 for Polytheism, 22 for Monarchy (rough estimates). (Add another 6 turns, if we decide to take the Pyramids after all.) So this is around 60 turns, before we can be in Monarchy. So we will be 20 turns longer in Despotism than in the scenario above. Consequently, by turn 90 we have spent roughly 60 turns in Despotism and 30 in Monarchy. And with Monarchy, research really sucks... Compared to scenario 1 (40 Despotism, 50 Republic) we will have fallen so far back in terms of technology, that it is even worse than having a second anarchy!

The only drawback of my plan is that we will have to research two expansive optionals (Monarchy + Republic) instead of only one.
It's a little gamble: if war weariness turns out to not be an issue for a long time, we have gained a lot. If it sets in early, we may loose a large part of what we gained, because of having to research both techs.

Well, a few points:

1. If we put out a curragh, and do the Great Library ourselves (taking Lit), I'll bet one zillion dollars that we don't have to research CB because we will get it from TGL. I'd bet slightly less that Mysticism also is not a research need. So that's 15 of the 20 turns eliminated from consideration.

2. Right now, production wise and commerce wise, there isn't a tremendous difference between Monarchy and Despotism for us. We don't have a lot of 3+ producing tiles (by my quick count, two wheat tiles, the lux will give 3+ commerce, our capital tile probably would spit out 3+ commerce, and that's pretty much it, yes?). So being in Monarchy instead of Despotism isn't a big deal at all. We have no hills to worry about losing production for, we have no golden age to plan for, so Monarchy vs. Despotism right now is really no big deal.

You're counting Republic in 25 turns now, and Monarchy in 22 turns with 20+ turns of extra empire development? That doesn't seem right.

4. You're completely not factoring in the lost production times of a largish empire doing a second anarchy (Republic to Monarchy), which I'd give you an over/under of 6.5 turns of extra anarchy.

5. If you do self-research, you're going to have to whip through a bunch more extra techs worth of AA research before we can get military units more useful than archers and spears. Go back and research Wheel and Horseback Riding, Math, Construction, Mapmaking... we'd probably have to research a few of these ourselves (Math/Construction) but we would also get others for free. That's a bunch of commerce going to things that don't have attack, defense, and movement numbers. Or, if you prefer, you can spend some on markets.

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, you almost convinced me... But there's one big "If" in your plan as well: if we don't get many contacts soon, then we may be waiting for a looong time, before the GLib finally spits out something useful. (vmxa already reported this.) If this was Demigod, I would say "yes, definately go for the GLib". But Monarch AIs can be awfully slow researchers, and then we'll wait for ever before we finally get to Monarchy, or will have to do a lot of research anyway.

As I already said in my previous posts: it all depends on the contacts. If we get many soon, then I'm definitely with you: get the GLib and shoot for Monarchy. My suggestion of the alternate plan with Republic was meant only for the case where we remain isolated for some time to come.
(Bad thing is only, that we may need to make a decision, before we have enough evidence. But Philo is a sound choice in either case, so for the next 10 turns we don't need to decide, yet! In any case, curraghs should be high priority now. They will provide the necessary information on which we can base our decision, and if we are not isolated, then they will bring in the necessary contacts to make the GLib useful.)

Well, yes, you are right, Monarchy isn't that much of an improvement compared to Despotism. But Republic would make a big difference (provided few contacts and a "small" army turns out to be sufficient).

Cheers, Lanzelot

 

[DWetzel]

We really only need one more contact in order to get the benefits right now of GLib. And I'd be stunned if we can't get more than one fairly easily.

And yeah, they can be slow researchers, but that just gives us somewhat more time to go a-bashing before they get things like pikes and muskets and knights and stuff.

 

[Northern Pike]

I agree completely. But still I think that for a strategy like this, it is not necessary to build the GLib yourself. Just capture it at the right moment and enjoy the "tech elevator"... Could be that in some circumstances this turns out to be difficult, but not impossible.

Thanks for your response. As I said, I can't assess whether you should build the GLib in the context of this particular landmass, or of your plan to play AW in republic. I just wanted to present all the possibilities involving the Library, and plainly you're all aware of them.

 

[Lanzelot]

Here is one more point that would speak in favor of the GLib: our Golden Age!

I assume we want a GA sometime during the Middle Ages. We need one great wonder with the MIL attribute and one with the SCI attribute. The obvious choice for the MIL wonder would be the Knight's Templar: it comes at the right point in time, it is not too expensive (300 shields) and it is actually very powerful.

So if we can use our SGL for a SCI wonder (like the GLib), we could get our Golden Age without having to waste too many shields on wonder building.

(I'm not saying, we should go for it. Just recording this point for later when the time comes to make a final decision.)

 

[TheOverseer714]

We have no real need for the Pyramids at this point. The GLib is extremely useful for AW, as each new contact brings new knowledge. I'm pretty sure this is either archipelago or continents(pangaeas usually have luxes all over the map, and we have only seen 2), which means overseas contacts will be no real threat for a long time. Build curraghs in Konigsberg and send them west.
Get Literature either as a freebie or research it and rush the GLib. Eventually, we can decide on a government. Republic might be feasible if my hunch is right, but also very high risk. With Iron or Horses, it would be less risky, but Archer rushes have such high losses that WW would get out of hand fast. Northern Pike is much better than I am at AW (and Civ 3 in general), so I trust his advice. I will do a AW Republic game someday, but it would probably be an archipelago map with say the Byzantines; with an Ironless Germany, it will most likely fail.

 

[GamezRule]

Okay, can somebody count the votes, I don't have the time right now, but if it has not been done when I return I will take it upon myself.

 

[Sparthage]

I'm throwing in my vote behind the GLib. So, the free tech (assuming we get it) will be Lit if we go for the GLib and Masonry if the Pyramids. Also, we still have a shot at building either wonder if we don't rush one of them.

 

[GamezRule]

Okay, Here are the things that are up at the ballot box right now:

Note: Only looking at posts after #253
Stole list from Aabra

Konigsberg:

1: TheOverseer714=> Curragh
2: Gamezrule44=> Curragh
3: Sparthage=> Curragh
4: DWetzel=> Curragh or Barracks Please Clarify
5: Splunge=>
6: Goodsmell=>
7: Lanzelot=> Curragh

EXTRA EXTRA: Curragh Wins Big Race by a Landslide!!!

Research:

1: TheOverseer714=> Philosophy; Grab Lit
2: Gamezrule44=> Philosophy; Grab Lit
3: Sparthage=> Philosophy; Grab Lit
4: DWetzel=>
5: Splunge=>
6: Goodsmell=>
7: Lanzelot=> Philosophy; Grab CoL

Philosophy gets researched, Unsure what to grab with it yet.

City:

1: TheOverseer714=> Whaleville
2: Gamezrule44=> Whaleville
3: Sparthage=> Whaleville: Name it "Kriegstreiberei ist Erfreulich" (Warmongering is Enjoyable)
4: DWetzel=>
5: Splunge=>
6: Goodsmell=>
7: Lanzelot=> Whaleville

"In other news, Bismark has decided to build a city to take advantage of great whale resources NE of Koenigsburg"

We build Whaleville, but If Sparthage wants to rename it he will have to do it himself.

SGL:

1: TheOverseer714=> Great Library
2: Gamezrule44=> Great Library
3: Sparthage=> Great Library
4: DWetzel=> Great Library
5: Splunge=>
6: Goodsmell=>
7: Lanzelot=> Can't tell. EDIT: Actually, I am going to go ahead and say he is for the GL and he knows it deep down. (We win anyway.)

The GL's have it.

Okay, speak now or forever hold your peace.
Mention it if I missed you.

 

[Sparthage]

YOU MISSED ME!​

Konigsburg: Curragh

Research: Philosophy, Grab Lit (hopefully)

City: Do you mean the location? If so, build it near the whales to the north. Name it "Kriegstreiberei ist Erfreulich" (Warmongering is Enjoyable)

SGL: Well, you already got me for that.

 

[GamezRule]

Okay okay, I fixed it. Now don't hurt me.

BTW: Do you take German classes or something?

EDIT: We spelled Konigsberg wrong, I fixed mine, so you need to:

FIX IT!!!

EDIT AGAIN: One more thing: 333 posts, haha.

 

[Sparthage]

Happy?

No, I don't take German classes. However, I speak some Russian in addition to the Spanish classes I'm taking now.

 

[GamezRule]

Happy?

Yes, Quite.

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment: If you're going to fuss about spelling the city names, then go with Koenigsberg and Heidelberg. I don't know how the first one is shown in the game, but the second one pops up as "Heidelburg," which is wrong.

Edit: Oops, had to correct my own spelling.

 

[GamezRule]

Actually, Kaliningrad, as it is known today as, was called Konigsberg when the Teutonic Knights built it for Prussia (Germany). Then the Soviets renamed it Kaliningrad. Koenigsberg was simply a translation of it, with Konigsberg being the more "correct" name.

 

[Aabraxan]

I don't normally trust Wikipedia, but that source says the name originally had the umlaut (the two dots over the o). That would make the correct spelling Koenigsberg, and makes sense. "Konig" isn't a word in German. "Koenig" is.

 

[GamezRule]

You win, I am not a speaker of German.

EDIT: What makes you say I used Wikipedia.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Build the city that will get the whales first. Literature as freebie if we get Philo first, research it if not free.