SGFN-08: Random AWM Succession Game

[Calis]

We already have a SGL, so we won't get one unless we use the one we have.

That's not true. You won't get an MGL. But SGLs are still possible.

 

[Sparthage]

That's not true. You won't get an MGL. But SGLs are still possible.

It's true. Playing as the Greeks I was able to have 8 SGLs at one time.

edit: Ended up using them to rush a lot of wonders. I already had 6 Armies.

 

[vmxa]

We already have a SGL, so we won't get one unless we use the one we have.

You can get another SGL, just not an MGL. Any leader prevents MGL, no check for SGL.

 

[Lanzelot]

Lurker's comment:
For experienced players this was already clear in the 1250BC save. The most obvious signs:
* Only 1 silk and 3 grapes visible on your landmass. The random map generator always puts more than that on the same landmass; you can expect some 5 silks and 5 grapes on this landmass, so there had to be much more land.
* The whale east of Amsterdam indicates land to the east. Also there's a coastal tile 4 tiles east of Berlin that points to land there. You just can't tell whether it's an island or a bigger landmass, but there's surely something out there.

Now you've discovered a third lux, which is more proof that you're part of a sizeable landmass.

Interesting observations! I didn't know that so far.

One question:
Should you not rather be scouting with a curragh than with a spear? If your spear finds a civ, this will likely be the civ closest to you and they can find you easier. If you go with a curragh, making the crossing east of Berlin and then go north, there will be more chance of finding a civ that is further away from you.

I think the spear is now so far away from home, we can as well let him continue scouting. The contacts he finds now will be far enough away. But we should lead him along the south coast, because the curragh will most probably scout along the north coast.

There is an advantage in building culture rather earlier than later, as it'll make it easier to hang on to captured towns.
The need for the GLib seems clear anyway. Without iron, your first unit that will have a better attack than 2 will be the longbow. Until Invention you'll only have archers, maybe horses, to fight against pikes and medieval infantry, as you have to assume the other(s) on your continent will have iron. The GLib will shorten your route to Invention, making a big difference.

The point about the culture is not that important, I think: early Pyramids will give us a decent culture boost as well, and together with 2-3 early libraries (which we get at half price, so we should take advantage of them) we'll have plenty of culture, in any case enough for Monarch level.
The GLib will shorten our route to Invention, but it doesn't matter whether we get it now or 40 turns later: it will give us exactly the same techs in both cases! The question is only: do we still have time for a prebuild?

F7 only shows wonders in progress of civs you know, so at the moment you only know what the Dutch are building, you have no clue about the other 6 and will only learn something about them when they have finished a building - then a pop-up message will come regardless of whether you've met them or not.
The speed at which the AI is building on Monarch is not that fast, but you haven't yet started any prebuild for the GLib, while it's now something like 1100BC? How can you still anticipate a cascade down from Pyramids or Lighthouse or something?

This worries me a bit, too. We will get 2, perhaps 3, new contacts shortly, so we can see let's say 4 out of 7. (Can we at least establish embassies on contact? Then we can spy and check their progress.) Anyway, I think the AI is notoriously slow to Literature, so we will have a good headstart on it. I'm not an expert on this, but I'd say we still have time before the cascade. There are still so many wonders left that usually get built before the GLib: Collossus, Oracle, ToA, Lighthouse, Mausoleum.

Basically it's a gamble: should we play it save and take the GLib, or should we take a little risk and possibly get Pyramids and GLib? I vote for taking the risk, because even if we miss the GLib, there's still a good chance that it get's built on our continent (or reachable by galleys), and we will still get the full benefit if we capture it much much later. (We don't even need to capture it permanently: holding it for just one turn is sufficient! Then the AI may as well retake it.) The Pyramids on the other hand are useful only if you hold them permanently, and the earlier you have them, the more useful they are.

Lanzelot

 

[Lanzelot]

My suggestions:
SGL used for GLib
Send exploring spear north to see if we're on a bay.

I'd say spear south, because the curragh will come along on the north coast in a short while anyway.

 

[Lanzelot]

I thought I'd update our ballot:

Okay, Here are the things that are up at the ballot box right now:

Königsberg:

1: TheOverseer714=> Curragh
2: Gamezrule44=> Curragh
3: Sparthage=> Curragh
4: DWetzel=> Curragh
5: Splunge=>
6: Goodsmell=>
7: Lanzelot=> Curragh

EXTRA EXTRA: Curragh Wins Big Race by a Landslide!!!

Research:

1: TheOverseer714=> Philosophy; Grab Lit
2: Gamezrule44=> Philosophy; Grab Lit
3: Sparthage=> Philosophy; Grab Lit
4: DWetzel=> Philosophy; Grab Lit
5: Splunge=>
6: Goodsmell=>
7: Lanzelot=> Philosophy; Grab Lit

Obviously grab Lit.


SGL:

1: TheOverseer714=> Great Library
2: Gamezrule44=> Great Library
3: Sparthage=> Great Library
4: DWetzel=> Great Library
5: Splunge=>
6: Goodsmell=>
7: Lanzelot=> Pyramids, Pyramids, Pyramids, Pyramids

So at the moment we have a draw between GL and Pyramids...
Anybody wants to change their mind after what I outlined above? Com'on, playing save and conventional is boring... Let's try the bold and crazy things!

By the way: where's the current .sav? And are Splunge and Goodsmell still with us? (You haven't given your vote for a long time...)

 

[Sparthage]

Why don't you PM them to find out? I'm pretty sure that they've forgotten about us.

 

[Optional]

By the way: where's the current .sav?

Well...

I need input, and will finish my turnset after we make a decision.

There has been enough input, the ballot boxes are closed, the votes have been counted, winners and losers have made their speeches, the make up artists and catering staff have been thanked, time to get on!!
* If you do erect a wonder, bear in mind an SGL is as fast as a cavalry, so put that wonder somewhere that can use the culture, somewhere like Whale Town? *

 

[GamezRule]

Don't worry, I will have the .SAV up tonight. I had a field trip to Lake Superior State University in Sault St. Marie MI today, so I just got home, and I am about to start up Civ.

EDIT: The Mackinac Bridge was fun driving across though, especially in a school bus.

Spoiler :

 

[GamezRule]

Okay, I have the .SAV now and the story behind it.

Spoiler :

I check Leipzig to make sure "Emphisize Production" is turned on then I hit SPACE.

IBT: Nothing

TURN 71 (1); 1225 BC: Change Konigsberg to Koenigsberg, then change production to a curragh. Move Spearman North, one square away from Mountian, still can't tell about the continent. Move Worker NE. Also move a Berliner from unworked Grassland to roaded forest adding 2 BPT and gaining a turn on Philosophy from 9 to 8.

IBT: Workers complete the "Silk Road"

TURN 72 (2); 1200 BC: Send 2 workers out to help bring a road to the future site of "Whaleville" Then I move the Spearman onto the Mountian... I AM SURE THIS IS A CONTINENT NOW. Send other worker to Mine BG East of Koenigsburg. Move Citizen of Leipzig from wheat over to the other Mined tile, then move a citizen of Hamburg onto the Wheat.

IBT: Berlin Finishes Spearman, set it to Archer.

TURN 73 (3); 1175 BC: Send Spearman SE Discover more Coastline, More sure than ever that this is a continent. Fortify Spear in Berlin.

IBT: FOUR DUTCH ARCHERS APPEAR SOUTH OF LEIPZIG. Leipzig finishes settler, set it to build another one.

TURN 74 (4); 1150 BC: Spearman continues exploring. Move Warrior off Mountian and towards Leipzig to give it better defence, now a 50/50 Battle, still not good.

IBT: The Dutch only move 3 archers within striking distance of Leipzig. Berlin grows to 4.

TURN 75 (5); 1125 BC: Move warrior into Leipzig, Securing it agianst the 3 archers having 4 defenders.

IBT: Another Dutch archer appears, the other 3 elect not to attack, instead moving west. Berlin completes archer, set production to Spearman.

TURN 76 (6); 1100 BC: Send new Archer over to Leipzig, the Dutch are up to no good. FOUND FRANKFURT (Whaleville). Leave production at warrior, but move Citizen to forest to speed up build time from 10 to 4. I Send our vetern Archer at the stack of 3 Dutch Archers, taking no damage on the bombard, we win the battle although getting no upgrade and taking 2 damage, then send elite at the stack, with the same result agian, taking the Dutch down to 3 archers in view, still not any vetern archers in sight either.

IBT: Dutch are moving towards Koenigsburg.

TURN 77 (7); 1075 BC: Take out the 2 dutch archers closest to Koenigsburg, taking no losses. The RNG is smileing upon me. Take out another dutch archer on a hill, getting redlined in the process, then see another dutch archer one square away. We will lose an archer. Drop Science down to 80, now gaining 1 gpt but still getting Philosophy in 2 turns. Elect not to send anything out to help the archer, since it would put to open up Leipzig to attack.

IBT: Dutch attack our archer as expected, and win, but take 1 damage bringing then down to 2 HP.

TURN 78 (8); 1050 BC: Attack dutch archer on the hill, winning , but find another dutch archer lurking to the south. Get promoted to elite. Move two archers into Leipzig to fortify and heal. (Yes I do know there is no barracks)

IBT: Dutch move NW, not in range, Dang. WE GET PHILOSOPHY AND PULL OF THE SLINGSHOT, GRABBING LIT, THEN I SELECT MASONRY. Berlin finishes Spearman, Select GREAT LIBRARY. Leipzig builds another settler, Koenigsburg finishes curragh, select another one. Hamburg finishes Barracks and begins Spearmen.

TURN 79 (9); 1025 BC: Nothing special, moved a couple workers, brought another archer into Leipzig to heal, built the first naval ship, and used the SGL that I created.

IBT: Get the Great Library, and Select Archer, Build Archer in Frankfurt too.

Spoiler :

TURN 80 (10); 1000 BC: Nothing Much Significant.

Our current situation:

Spoiler :

I had to make the picture like this to get it to upload.

The Dutch are sending a steady stream of units now, so we should strike soon.

I wish you luck, Sparthage.

 

[vmxa]

Lurker's comment:

The boss lady loves Mackinaw fudge.

 

[DWetzel]

Major non-smartness to rush the Great Library in Berlin instead of Frankfurt. Now we'll have to build a library in Frankfurt in order to get a cultural expansion for the two whales.

Blearg.

 

[GamezRule]

Major non-smartness to rush the Great Library in Berlin instead of Frankfurt. Now we'll have to build a library in Frankfurt in order to get a cultural expansion for the two whales.

Blearg.

I knew that right after I did it, but the rules say no turning back. If it were my own game I would have reloaded and done it the other way, but I was finishing my set and didn't think when I made the move.

The boss lady loves Mackinaw fudge.

It is quite delicious, especially the stuff you buy right on the Island.

PS: Have any of you ever been up here in lovely Northern Michigan.

 

[vmxa]

It is quite delicious, especially the stuff you buy right on the Island.

PS: Have any of you ever been up here in lovely Northern Michigan.

A tipoff as to my being old, but I went the the island, before the bridge was built. Took the ferry. Of course I was very young, I think 5 the first time.

 

[GamezRule]

A tipoff as to my being old, but I went the the island, before the bridge was built. Took the ferry. Of course I was very young, I think 5 the first time.

Well the bridge just recently celebrated it's 50th anniversary.

 

[Lanzelot]

Berlin finishes Spearman, Select GREAT LIBRARY.

Oh, no, you mean you built the GLib in Berlin?? Bad mistake.

Optional, you should have posted your advice in size=10, not size=1 ...

* If you do erect a wonder, bear in mind an SGL is as fast as a cavalry, so put that wonder somewhere that can use the culture, somewhere like Whale Town? *

Frankfurt could've used the whale tiles within two turns.

PS: ok, I saw others have scolded you already for that, so never mind...

Other than that: nice turn

Worker management needs to be reconsidered: I see many workers improving forest tiles, while there are still unimproved grasslands/plains, which in my opinion have higher priority. (Food is the all-decisive factor. If you have food, then shields and commerce will follow automatically.) And why is that settler off road? Via Frankfurt it should already have reached NC6.

The Settler Factory is off track again... (Did you give the wheat to Hamburg during the first two turns?!) At the moment it looks like you did 5-turn settlers instead of 4-turn ones.

Proposals for our next steps:

• Build road towards tobacco tile. (Worker crew needs strong military protection...) This can be used for our coming attack on Rotterdam and will at the same time let our settlers from Leipzig reach the next town locations in 1-2 turns.
• Turn research off. We should get our next contact any turn now, then we just see, what the GLib will give us (if we get any, then it will be a first tier tech) and continue research afterwards with the ones we didn't get. We save some money now, and then we can do deficit research later.
• Prepare a stack and take Rotterdam.

 

[GamezRule]

Oh, no, you mean you built the GLib in Berlin?? Bad mistake.

I already said that I knew it was a mistake when I did it.

Worker management needs to be reconsidered: I see many workers improving forest tiles, while there are still unimproved grasslands/plains, which in my opinion have higher priority.

If you look, the workers are all along the river, that way we pick up an extra commerce, also, the settler factory needs a Roaded Forest tile, but Berlin can put good use to one too.

And why is that settler off road? Via Frankfurt it should already have reached NC6.

That is not true, since the road connecting Frankfurt was not completed in time.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Done is done. We are here to teach, so please take the criticism as a lesson and not personally. Practical implications of this turnset will include a library in Frankfurt, getting the SF back in synch, and moving workers. The AW lesson here is that once we get walls up, we want enemy archers to attack our towns rather than linger about to pillage. They will avoid attacking if a town is too well defended, so 2 spears are the best if we defend. We also need catapults to ping enemies, who will retreat rather than attack. Lastly, never build regular units unless we are desperate. Hopefully gamezrule got the dutch surge and from here on, the enemy units trickle in.

 

[DWetzel]

Done is done. We are here to teach, so please take the criticism as a lesson and not personally. Practical implications of this turnset will include a library in Frankfurt, getting the SF back in synch, and moving workers. The AW lesson here is that once we get walls up, we want enemy archers to attack our towns rather than linger about to pillage. They will avoid attacking if a town is too well defended, so 2 spears are the best if we defend. We also need catapults to ping enemies, who will retreat rather than attack. Lastly, never build regular units unless we are desperate. Hopefully gamezrule got the dutch surge and from here on, the enemy units trickle in.

A few thoughts:

First, don't take the Great Library thing too personally. It's not THAT big a deal in the long run, since we'd eventually want a library there eventually anyway. However, it does highlight one of the very most important things you can do in a succession game, which is carefully read all the comments of your teammates. Failing to do that is far more important than details like exactly what to build when--those sorts of minor issues are pretty self-correcting.

One beneficial (IMO) consequence of building the Great Library in Berlin is that we can safely dismiss any crazy notions Lanzelot might have had about abandoning Berlin, at least for a while.

We definitely need a library (aided by forest chopping, in my opinion) to capture the two whale tiles though. A library, plus eventually a harbor, and we have ourselves a nice town which will carry a lot of science for us in the middle ages.

I'd add to Overseer's comments about walls and letting archers attack that in the ideal case, we'd also have an archer or catapult in the town with the spears. Defensive bombardment is your friend. However, I think we'll need all the attack we can muster on the evil Dutch, so that isn't practical. The corollary to letting their archers attack is to make sure workers are covered, and to never ever ever ever expose any units when attacking (especially exposing archers).

Edit to add: one further thought regarding the settler factory; it may be worth our time to crank out a worker or two there, especially if that helps get it back on track timing wise. I haven't had a chance to actually look at the exact situation, but I do know that you can never have too many workers, and we'll have a few different areas in need of improvement (forest chops for the library, roading to the south, and improving the land east of Berlin for the impending cities). Whoever's up next can evaluate this, but it's definitely something to consider.

 

[Optional]

One beneficial (IMO) consequence of building the Great Library in Berlin is that we can safely dismiss any crazy notions Lanzelot might have had about abandoning Berlin, at least for a while.

Lurker's comment:
He wasn't the only one who liked the idea, although I'm not sure of the opinions within the team. A capital move would have been something for the looong future anyway, as the Dutch territory is just as crap as yours, so you would have to look east into the big unknown.
As an aside, I find it a bit of a shame that because of a lapse of concentration - that put the GLib in Berlin - such pivotal strategy ideas now have to be throw out of the window. If Gamezrule44 immediately realized his mistake - I believe he implicated he did - I personally would have found a reload of the latest autosave much more harmless than what you've got now. I know how strict people are about their no reload principle, I don't need to be brushed up on that, but I don't find this principle always in the interest of the game.