SGFN-08: Random AWM Succession Game

Yeah, I'm up.

Right this minute, I think any town is better than no town at all (but only just), but I'll take a look at the overall situation and make a post in an hour or two. I think it's important to reassess exactly where we're at and work forward rather than backward. If we do abandon them I'd rather worker-abandon than settler-abandon, as it sort of solves two problems at once in a weird sort of way. I intend to play this evening.

I might also suggest that for future turn sets that Sparthage and I switch spots in the order or that Overseer and gamezrule switch places, so as to have our two newer-to-SG- players not right next to each other. With the dropouts, we have three experienced players in a five man rotation--no reason to torture the new guys by putting them next to each other. ;)
 
Items to be dealt with pre-turn:

1. Science.

I shut off research, as discussed. No shields had been put into Mysticism, at least. As a result, we go from -1 gpt to +26 gpt. 27 gpt is, effectively, an archer rushed from scratch every three turns. Realistically, it's a library rushed from not-scratch every six turns.

Overriding principle here--don't research something we don't need and can eventually get for free.

2. City production.

Leipzig: I change the entertainer in Leipzig to a taxman. Either way, the city will not riot; this way we get an extra 2 gold totally for free. I also reassign the tiles at Leipzig to make sure that we get the settler next turn.

Mini-principle: specialists are fine, entertainers are usually not necessary. Here, where we have one happy citizen and two unhappy ones, you have to pick up one citizen which gives us 1 happy and 1 unhappy. That's what you want. The second happy citizen does nothing for us (either way the city doesn't riot), so change him into something more useful. Normally a scientist (which gives 3 beakers per turn) is just better than a taxman (which gives 2 gold per turn). Here, though, we aren't researching anyway--so the beakers are useless.

Heidelburg: I change the regular archer being built to a worker, due in 4 turns (will actually be 5) after I swap to the forest tile.

Koenigsburg: I change the regular archer being built to a barracks, due in 3 turns.

Hamburg: I change the worked roaded forest tile to a roaded grassland. As we've already pop-rushed an archer, I can't do anything different. I could change the build, but the archer build is right.

Frankfurt: I change the regular spear being built to a library. I also reassign the citizen from the forest to the bonus grassland. This will help the city grow faster, which is a good thing. It will slightly slow the library, but not by much.

Blitzkrieg City: I leave the worker to be built, but switch to forest so we get it in 2 turns (will actually be 3, you'll see why) instead of 4.

Overriding principles here are simple--almost never build regular units. Build barracks first, then build veteran units. This is especially true when we are militaristic and get barracks for just 20 shields. There are exceptions, but they usually involve really really early game situations, or times when the enemy is on our doorstep and you just HAVE to have an extra defender.


3. Worker operations: I wake the workers that are mining S of Frankfurt and W of Berlin. The one at Frankfurt moves two squares due south to begin a road. The other one had just started mining, so can do nothing with him this turn, but next turn he will join his friend for a roading.

I also wake the worker northeast of Berlin, who had just started mining.


Overriding principles here are a little more subtle, but here they are:

A. We need to complete roads to our new city sites. That helps our settlers get where they are wanting to go faster.
B. In situations like around Frankfurt/Berlin/Leipzig, where the tiles are roaded, it's smarter to group the workers to mine. If you start three individual workers mining three separate squares, in 6 turns you will have three mined squares. If you group all three and have them mine one square in two turns, then move/mine another, then move/mine the third, you will also have three mined squares after 6 turns--but you will have had one square mined for 4 turns, and another square mined for 2 turns, which is a clear net gain of 6 shields.
C. Do what you can to get our cities to "magic" numbers for production. For archers and spears, which we have now, that's 3, 4, 5, or 7. Six shields means 18 after 3, or 24 after 4, which is four wasted shields.

However, despite this principle, RIGHT NOW, Berlin is set up perfectly as it was.

Quiz question #1: Do you see why? Think about it before reading. Answer in spoiler:
Spoiler :
It's because in three turns, Berlin will grow from size 3 to size 4. It will receive the two extra shields from being assigned to a forest, which along with the 3x6=18 shields it will get in 3 turns, gives us exactly 20, which is perfect for an archer.


4. Military operations.

All our military units have moved, except the ones in our cities and the warrior. I click on each of our ten units in the large stack. This may not be necessary, but just in case you had set that stack on auto-move, this will stop it.

VERY VERY IMPORTANT succession game note: never have units on automove. That's a sure way to screw up your teammates plans and want to make them cry and/or kill small furry animals when they thought they had units to deal with a brand-new problem, and then watch the units go scurrying off in a different direction.

I have no idea what the situation here was, but better safe than sorry.

I move the warrior off Lookout Mountain to the west, onto the mined wheat. I also move the regular spear out of Hamburg to the same square.

Quiz question #2: why would I do this? Answer:
Spoiler :
It's going to be used to annoy that Dutch spear. Not by attacking, but simply by blockading the spear. That spear is going for Koenigsburg and/or our luxury right now. By placing a warrior and a spear on the roaded squares north and northwest of Leipzig, that spear will have to take the long way around Leipzig, between Leipzig and Hamburg, and not coincidentally right into our kill zone.

This is why rushing the archer in Hamburg was not necessary. We can deal with lone incoming spears in ways other than by trying to kill them with archers (which involves a risk of loss to our archer). They can be easily herded away from spots that would annoy us, and toward spots that we don't mind so much. The spear won't attack units, so unless it's about to pillage something, it can be left pretty much alone.


Quiz question #3: How much of a risk am I taking by removing a defender from Hamburg? What if some Dutch archers show up in a turn or two?

Spoiler :
Effectively the risk is zero! If archers appear, we can shift a defender or two in from both Berlin and Leipzig and have a well-defended city. See how nice it is that our cities are close enough together that we can do that in one turn?
 
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This is the latest dotmap I've seen.

We have New City 7 already in place. :goodjob:

I would propose the following modifications to this dotmap.

1. Given that we won't be abandoning Berlin any time soon, I think getting two cities in to the east/northeast of Berlin is optimistic. I would suggest instead building only one city at NC2, which probably ought to go 3NE of Berlin (or 1 SW of current Blitzkrieg City, which will worker-abandon soon). It loses the river (bad) but picks up the BG (very good).

2. NC1 tightens up city spacing a bit on your NC5, bringing it CxxC from Leipzig and Hamburg. I plan this for our immediate city site, as it has useful tiles (3x BG) to work, and helps Hamburg get a useful tile (one of those BGs). I feel very very strongly that this is the right site there, since it will both speed our advance to the Dutch and provide those strong tiles.

3. Making that switch sort of necessitates the other city site swaps in that direction, which I could otherwise be pretty ambivalent about. If Heidelburg weren't actually on a sugar tile, I'd otherwise keep it there, as it's CxxC to NC1, will eventually get the fish tile, and isn't that awful a site.

However, NC4 gets a sugar and BG to work right away, creates a useful front line, and then lets us build NC5. It also has the advantage that in time we can build NC6 at a very natural site, and eventually a new city at perfect CxxC from NC6, and keep Amsterdam in perfect CxxC alignment as well. (Amsterdam may be a very good FP site when the time comes, with the wine hills and good production capabilities. We're nowhere near that, of course.)

In all these, I'm desperately trying to get our new cities one or two tiles to work right away, since we're basically going to be settling right in the heels of our invasion force.

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I agree with the roster change, how about after Lanzelot it is gamezrule, then me, then Sparthage then DW?
 
We are not trying to break the world record for the highest number of turns in the shortest possible time... We are trying to play high-quality civ!

True, but that gives me an Idea for a interesting SG. :cool:

EDIT: BTW, Read This Please :D
 
Roster Changes:

1: GamezRule
2: Overseer
3: Lanzelot
4: Sparthage
5: DWetzel


This is my suggestion, Anybody Disagree? If so I will change it. :cool:

To be put into effect once DWetzel and Lanzelot finish their turnsets. :goodjob:

I put it like this since DWetzel is probably the most experienced among us in AW so he goes between Me and Sparthage. (The Noobs)

EDIT: See post #356 for updated roster. ;)
 
That would be after after DW plays. Then we can use that roster.
 
You should be between me and Lanzelot.
 
lurker's comment: I've been wanting to get a peek at a save from this game for what seems like ages. Mrs. Aabraxan and Princess Bloodthirsty have allowed me the time to do so today (though I have promised to take PB bike-riding, then teach her to play MOO2 later).

I don't want to beat a dead horse by going back over the stuff they posted, but they've made some excellent points. Well, OK, there's one exception: letting the settler factory riot. Now, I haven't gone through the inner workings of this settler pump, but IIRC, it requires some tile-swapping MM to make it work right. Frankly, I'm not very good at keeping track of stuff like "swap tile X from City A to City B on the third turn of the production cycle." Maybe that's why I'm only a Mid-level Micromanager. However, y'all ain't got but 7 towns. Letting any of them riot, especially the one geared to help you make new towns, is a big mistake. If you have to check on the SF every turn, do it. That riot knocked your SF out of whack and now it'll take umpteen turns to get it all sorted out again.

Regarding the dotmap that DW posted, I suggest putting NC 8 on top of the horses. That may require some adjustment in the placement of whatever city replacte Utrecht (or perhaps you could just keep Utrecht), but putting NC8 on the horses removes any danger of pillaging. You're already without iron, so why risk being without horses, too? Speaking of iron, I found it. Man! That's a long, long way to have to expand before getting iron.

I see lots of MMing that needs adjusting. Got some cities working 1-food tiles when they should be working 2-food tiles, where they can get faster growth and not lose time on their current builds. I'm sure DW will go through and take care of all that.

I did play a few turns, and without giving too much away, I can tell you that the Vikings have picked out their landing spot. Set up to do some leader-fishing there.

As you get improvements to those core areas finished, begin gathering workers into groups. They'll finish tasks faster and they're easier to defend that way. Also, I find that razing cities is a good way to increase your slave labor force.
 
My fervent hope is that by the time we can actually use the horses, they'll be at least somewhat behind our front lines. Ideally I'd like to push through the Dutch quickly and set up a blockade at the chokepoint, so that we can take a breath and retool our army.
 
No problem with the roster change.

Excellent assessment, DWetzel! :goodjob:

I'd only like to argue about the dotmap a bit. (By the way: took me a while to understand what you are saying, until I figured out that in some points you still used the "old numbering" of my dotmap, and in others you were already referring to the new dotmap with a different numbering... :confused: Anyway, I'll be using your numbering for the following discussion.)

There are four points I'd like to discuss a little more:
  • Even with Berlin remaining our capital for a long time to come, I'd like to have two towns in the NE area. The reasons are: a) it's prime low-corruption area, we should take advantage of that. b) Even with two towns cramped together, there should still be enough production left for getting both to a magic number. c) Eventually these two towns will cover a lot of coastal tiles (12 in total) and bring in a lot of commerce!
    And don't forget the extra unit support.
  • I see your reason for placing NC 1 one tile N of where I placed it: reinforcement from Leipzig as well as Hamburg. But I think this is not necessary (in the original position NC 1 can be reinforced from NC 5, Rotterdam and Utrecht, that should be enough), and leaving it at the original location will have the benefit, that we can "reuse" Rotterdam and don't need to raze it! (We already wasted two settlers... so we better try to hold on to any town we can )
  • Can we put NC 6 onto a desert tile? Sure, it will loose the river, but it will be on the coast and will make good use of a desert tile!
  • You scrapped NC 4 (in my original numbering...) completely. But I think that town is important for the reinforcement of NC 1, and it has lower corruption than your NC 5. (We can get NC 5 later to pick up the fish.)

Let me put these words into a picture:
Spoiler :
attachment.php


Other comments: worker-disbanding? :eek: Holy cow, you are even crazier than me... But you may be right: settler-disbanding would probably take too long, and during that time the new settlers from Leipzig would stock-piling and not be able to set up the "good" towns. But please calculate it through: if we can still build other useful towns while waiting for a settler-disband, try to get a settler from at least one of the two towns. Or let Leipzig build a couple workers during that waiting time.
 
My fervent hope is that by the time we can actually use the horses, they'll be at least somewhat behind our front lines. Ideally I'd like to push through the Dutch quickly and set up a blockade at the chokepoint, so that we can take a breath and retool our army.

Agree. At the moment horses are not an immediate consideration. By the time we manage to connect them, the war with the Dutch will already be over anyway.
 
I think I can live with your suggestions about the east, though it's still too crowded for my taste, but I feel very strongly that we need my NC1 right where I put it (and consequently the other towns in the west/south would need to go more or less where I put them.) The reason for this is that the towns in the far east and far west are more or less throwaway cities. They aren't going to be very productive anyway. It probably doesn't matter much where we put them.

My NC1 on the other hand, which is just north of your NC5, is the most important city we can place in the short term, due to the number of productive tiles it brings as well as the strategic impact of moving toward the Dutch. And if we need to get that city down quickly, then it needs to be CxxC from our other cities there because if it isn't we're going to be in a really crappy spot if some Dutch show up.

From that site, the other stuff to the west and south sort of flows naturally.
 
And yeah, worker-disbanding may be crazy-ish, but:

1. It at least gets us a few workers faster, and
2. It frees up the city sites for settlement, including whatever we want to do out east.

The alternative is to wait until after the end of my turnset to get any settlers out, while popping workers from Leipzig. It's probably more or less a push. The tiebreaker for me is that the sooner the cities are gone, the sooner we don't have to defend them (especially Heidelburg).

Worker abandonment can happen within a few turns at both sites (set to forest, make 10 shields, then set citizen to tax).
 
Roster Changes:

1: Overseer
2: GamezRule
3: Lanzelot
4: Sparthage
5: DWetzel


How's this? ;)

EDIT: I still think that DWetzel should be between me and Sparthage, Any thoughts? :confused:
 
Roster Changes:

1: Overseer
2: GamezRule
3: Lanzelot
4: Sparthage
5: DWetzel


How's this? ;)

EDIT: I still think that DWetzel should be between me and Sparthage, Any thoughts? :confused:

This roster looks fine; I don't think there's any real difference between me and Lanzelot.
 
My NC1 on the other hand, which is just north of your NC5, is the most important city we can place in the short term, due to the number of productive tiles it brings as well as the strategic impact of moving toward the Dutch. And if we need to get that city down quickly, then it needs to be CxxC from our other cities there because if it isn't we're going to be in a really crappy spot if some Dutch show up.

At the moment we don't have a road to that location yet. So first putting up the eastern towns will be faster and won't be disturbed by incoming Dutch units. (Let them march all the way north... Why making their journey shorter by giving them an easy close-by target...)
By the time we have set up the eastern towns, hopefully the road to the NC5 location will be finished and the Dutch will be defeated by our advancing stack, so no more need for worrying about NC5's protection.

(And NC5 at its current planned location adds all the BG tiles to our territory just the same way as one tile further N, and at the same time allows more room for our already cramped core.)
 
Lurker's comment:
If given the choice, I prefer putting a town on a plains tile rather than a grass tile, for the extra shield in the centre once size 7 is reached.
Then it's time for my favourite question, the one I'm harrassing every SG with (and also one that should affect your city placement ideas): Forbidden palace? You're 3 cities away from your pop-up message and you've decided you're going to use your first couple of military leaders for armies, so it looks like you need a prebuild going on somewhere.

My guess for landsize: 60% continents - so much open space where your spearman is wandering suggests 60% water, and it looks more like continents than pangaea.
 
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