SGFN-08: Random AWM Succession Game

[Lanzelot]

Good that at least one of you likes my idea of abandoning Berlin, thanks Optional!

But in fact: it would have been a very strong strategem in this particular game. (And if you look at the games of the top GOTM players, you will notice that they do it all the time.)

I know we shouldn't look back, but there's one more thing I need to say, because I hope it will be instructive: one key ability for Civ (or other strategy games like Chess) is to remain flexible as long as possible. Consider all possibilities and keep prepared for all of them. Burn the bridges behind you only when absolutely necessary. Then you retain the ability to react to changed circumstances. (I guess, this is what the Overseer dubbed so nicely as "herding cats"... If you read this thread, you'll notice that I've changed my mind about certain things several times, whenever new information or new ideas came up.)

Anyway, in our case: by building the GLib now, we lost a lot of flexibility without necessity, because as I already wrote in one of the earlier posts, we have exactly one contact at the moment, and the GLib requires at least two. So there wasn't any need yet to build the GLib immediately. Suppose now that in the next 5-10 turns we find out that we are on a huge continent alone with the Dutch (they could as well have popped their tech from a hut instead of trading it from someone...) So the GLib would be useless for a long time to come and we would get much more benefit from the Pyramids. But then it's to late to switch strategies, because we have already used up our leader!
I'm not saying this is likely to happen, but still I would have liked to keep flexible and keep that option open for as long as possible! (And in my opinion the discussion of whether we can get the Pyramids and the GLib was far from decided, yet.) Now getting the Pyramids will be impossible.

Regarding the reload: I agree with the Overseer here. Done is done, no reloads. Anyway, here is a little anecdote as "comfort" for gamezrule: in one of my GOTMs a while back I was playing for 20K (where you want as many wonders as you can get). I got an MGL (which can rush wonders in PTW/Vanilla) and moved it to my capital. I waited until the current wonder was finished (it had already a couple hundred shields in the box, so didn't want to waste the MGL on that), switched to the next wonder, selected the leader --- and absentmindedly pressed the "Build Army" button... (These two buttons look so similar, don't they ) Of course no reloading allowed.
So you see, gamezrule, I have done things even more stupid than rushing a wonder in the wrong town...

And again: don't take criticism personally. As Overseer said, the purpose of this game is to give us all the opportunity to gain experience and learn something new. And how can one learn better than from mistakes

Lanzelot

 

[Lanzelot]

If you look, the workers are all along the river, that way we pick up an extra commerce, also, the settler factory needs a Roaded Forest tile, but Berlin can put good use to one too.

Well, the grassland tiles I meant, are on the river as well... (And one of them, the tile 1E of Frankfurt, would have finished in time for the settler to reach NC6 one turn earlier. (Two turns, if the SF would have been in synch.))

That is not true, since the road connecting Frankfurt was not completed in time.

One more reason why those workers shouldn't be building roads through the forest...

However, it does highlight one of the very most important things you can do in a succession game, which is carefully read all the comments of your teammates. Failing to do that is far more important than details like exactly what to build when--those sorts of minor issues are pretty self-correcting.

Exactly. I spent about two hours preparing the "article" on how to operate the settler factory. So the least I can expect is that everyone reads it carefully, and if something is not clear, then ASK.

One beneficial (IMO) consequence of building the Great Library in Berlin is that we can safely dismiss any crazy notions Lanzelot might have had about abandoning Berlin, at least for a while.

Haha, looks like you don't know me yet... Now the idea of disbanding Berlin is crazier than before, so that makes it even more attractive to me

Edit to add: one further thought regarding the settler factory; it may be worth our time to crank out a worker or two there, especially if that helps get it back on track timing wise.

Yep. We won't abort the forest-roading now, of course, so we need more workers.

 

[GamezRule]

As an aside, I find it a bit of a shame that because of a lapse of concentration - that put the GLib in Berlin - such pivotal strategy ideas now have to be throw out of the window. If Gamezrule44 immediately realized his mistake - I believe he implicated he did - I personally would have found a reload of the latest autosave much more harmless than what you've got now.

Well we could always bend the rules just this once, I still have a save from back then...

 

[Sparthage]

My computer is hating me right now . I'm going to require a skip.

 

[DWetzel]

Nah, agreed with everyone else, what's done is done. It's far from a critical game-losing error. We can win just fine from this position (probably--but it'd have little to do with where we put TGL).

I, personally, WOULD allow a reload/retrace steps in case of a purely physical error (misclicks) in even semi-important situations. But that's about it.

 

[GamezRule]

My computer is hating me right now

What is wrong with it?

EDIT: I might be able to help.

 

[DWetzel]

My computer is hating me right now . I'm going to require a skip.

If this puts me up, please advise. This is a conditional "got it", though if Sparthage can get the computer back in line (might I suggest flowers?), he can certainly have it back. I will post just before I actually start playing.

 

[Sparthage]

The problem has now been fixed. I changed a few things, restarted the computer, and it works . However, how do I get the SF back online?

 

[GamezRule]

Hurray, it's fixed.

 

[Optional]

...how do I get the SF back online?

Lurker's comment:
It's now exactly in the same situation as it was 10 turns ago, which means it started its cycle a turn too early, and will require 5 turns to reach 30 shields.
What I suggested earlier was to give Hamburg a wheat tile for 2 turns (and when you want to be really precise, give it the mined wheat for turn 1 and the irrigated wheat for turn 2), but this only helps commerce and Hamburg, so it has merit, but it doesn't bring the settler factory in sink.
What you need to do for that:
* Next time it starts make sure it's starting at size 4.5. If it's at size 4, just put it on wealth for a turn;
* Upon growth, when the governor puts a citizen on the forest, take it off there immediately, the settler factory should always run at +5 food, otherwise the cycle messus up;
* Make sure it's working the bg tiles;
* Don't worry if you don't get it right, settler factories in succession games are there to be messed up.

At the moment you could give both Königsberg and Frankfurt a better tile, as they both are working forest tiles, and in the early game it's all about food, food, food, until unhappiness puts the curb in.
Don't research anymore, your wandering spear should make a new 'friend' any turn now, and then a bunch of techs will come in, that's what you built the GLib for - Bismarck is smart!

 

[Sparthage]

Okay then. Here's the turnlog:

Spoiler :

IBT: Dutch Archer and Spear move closer.
Turn 1- zzz...
IBT: Archer moves into our territory, another spear is on the way.
Turn 2- Elite archer kills the intruding archer without damage. THe trend continues as a vet archer kills the closer spear.
IBT: A spear moves into our territory.
Turn 3- Berlin: Archer-> Archer
Konigsberg: Curragh-> Spear
Elite archer kills the spear (-2 hp).
The SGS (Succession Gamer Ship) Gamezrule sees land across an apparent channel.
IBT: zzz...
Turn 4- Complete research on Masonry, begin "The Wheel" due in 5 @ 80% science.
IBT: zzz...
Turn 5- Leipzig revolts . Well, if the SF wasn't messed up before, it sure is now.
Build Blitzkrieg City begin production of worker.
The Gamezrule and Kriegstreiberei ist Erfreulich (Another curragh) cross their channels. The KiE is because I saw a coast and now I see purple borders (Iroquois?).
IBT: zzz...
Turn 6- Leipzig is restored. Leipzig: Settler-> Settler
The KiE crosses successfully, no contact yet.
IBT: Get Wheel from Vikings and Dutch, begin on Ceremonial Burial due in 4 at 50% sci (+9 gpt)!
Turn 7- Berlin: Archer-> Spear
The Dutch have a Horse Source
Contact with Vikings.
Science: They have HB riding, we're up Masonry, philosophy, and lit.
Military: We outnumber them. And they have Archers, which makes the advisor:
Wealth: We're rich!
Resources: THEY HAVE IRON!!!!!!!!!!!
And we declare war!
IBT: zzz...
Turn 8- Frankfurt: Archer-> Spear
Build Heidelburg (Defended by a spear): Nada-> Archer, There's a dutch spear 2 spaces away.
IBT: The spear moves in to our territory.
Turn 9- Hamburg: Spear-> Archer
Launch 3 Spears and 7 Archers to attack Rotterdam and the horsies from Leipzig (Can attack in 4 Turns).
IBT: Dutch Spearman towards Leipzig?
Turn 10- Finish Ceremonial Burial, take Map Making with the GLib, begin Mysticism, due in 4 @ 90% science (-1 gpt).
Berlin: Worker-> Archer
Leipzig revolts, again. Move a spear to make happy.
KiE moves to the coast of a NEW ISLAND!
Our spear scout finds a source of Iron! It's REALLY far away though .
Pop-rush a archer in Hamburg to attack the spear that'll be in range in a few turns (it only cost 1 pop).

Well, that's done. Here's our current situation:

Military:
Army:
10 Spearmen
7 Archers
2 Warriors
Navy:
2 Curraghs
Other:
2 Workers
Support:
Can Support: 28
We Have: 26 (2 more on the way next turn)

Treasury: 70 Gold (-1 gpt)

Science:
New Techs:
Masonry
Wheel
Map Making
Ceremonial Burial
Current Research: Mysticism (4 Turns @ 90% Science)

Diplomacy:
Netherlands: AT WAR!
Scandinavia: AT WAR!

Comparisons:
Netherlands:
Military: We are strong

Scandinavia:
Military: We are strong

And a few pictures...
Our territory:

Spoiler :

Scandinavia:

Spoiler :

The SGS Gamezrule's discoveries:

Spoiler :

 

[Sparthage]

And then some info that I forgot to post...

Cities:
Berlin: Archer (4 Turns)
Hamburg: Archer (1 Turn)
Leipzig: In Disorder!
Frankfurt: Spearman (1 Turn)
Konigsberg: Archer (3 Turns)
Heidelburg: Archer (18 Turns)
Blitzkrieg City: Worker (4 Turns)

 

[Daeron]

lurker's comment: Should be interesting if the Scandinavians reach invention.

 

[Sparthage]

Hopefully we'll have destroyed them and the Dutch by then. If not well then...

Spoiler :

SUPER BESERKER RAGE!
Them-> run: ) <-Our people and "advisors" <-Us

 

[TheOverseer714]

Heidelberg should be where the dutch boy is standing to make it defensible and Blitzkrieg city also should be closer in. Other than letting the SF riot and not sticking to CxxC spacing, a solid turn.

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment: Looks like a pretty solid turnset. I don't see the iron in the screenshots, which tells me that it is really, really far away. That makes the horses a top priority. Get them and take out the Dutch. Their land isn't great, but you need the expansion.

As for the Vikings, the AI is truly terrible at naval invasions, even with zerks. Yes, they have the potential to be a problem, but I've never seen the AI use them very well. With that said, it's sure be nice to kill the Dutch and get iron & pikes before zerks can become a problem.

Here's my question, though:

Okay then. Here's the turnlog:
IBT: Get Wheel from Vikings and Dutch, begin on Ceremonial Burial due in 4 at 50% sci (+9 gpt)! . . . .
Turn 10- Finish Ceremonial Burial, take Map Making with the GLib, begin Mysticism, due in 4 @ 90% science (-1 gpt). . . . .

You have the GLib, and you're continuing to do deficit research? Can anyone explain this reasoning to me? I recognize that Myst gets you 1 step closer to Monarchy & that Monarchy gets you cash-rushing and more potential MPs for your cities. However, that does you no good if you don't have any cash to rush, or the cities to support those MPs. I count 7 towns. In despo, that's unit support of 28; in Monarchy, it's 14. To get unit support of 28 in Monarchy, you've got to expand more. I also think the odds that the AI civ will not research Monarchy to be slim, given that it's a gov't tech with a wonder. So I do not think that shutting down research and amassing gold is the way to go.

 

[GamezRule]

Yes, we really don't need to be researching.

 

[DWetzel]

Three major quibblers:

1. As noted -- we have the Great Library. No researching! I actually don't have a huge problem with researching Wheel, even though we'd get it soon enough from the Library--knowing where the horsies are would be nice. I still wouldn't have researched it at all, because we would have gotten it from the Library soon enough.

But why on earth do we want to research Ceremonial Burial and Mysticism? Are we planning to build temples and the Oracle? Because that's the only use we have for those techs. They accomplish nothing for us militarily at all. In short, if you had told me we could have each of them, immediately, for 5 gold each, I would have happily declined the offer. Wasting research on them is just pointless.

Now that we have the Great Library, do NOT research anything. It's that simple. Set the luxury slider where it needs to be, and rake in the rest in cash. Cash will be useful later, either for deficit research when we're striving for something like knights or cavalry; for cash rushing units; or for cash-rushing buildings like markets and libraries (so our cities can go back to producing more units faster).

2. City placement. I'm going to be harsh here. It's not personal.

Why the (&*#$&*#@(* is Blitzkrieg City where it is? Apart from the fact that it eats up the only bonus grassland on that end of the continent, so it's a silly city site to start with, the more disturbing features of that site are:

a) that we walked multiple extra turns to actually get to that site; more importantly
b) it violates CxxC placement, which you vitally want to have to protect cities. Let's say that twenty turns from now some random civ lands two archers next to Blitzkrieg City, which has one spear in it. We're at risk. If it were one square closer to Berlin, we could move a spear or two in the city and be at much less risk. However, even far more importantly than that;
c) we have been putting up all sorts of dotmaps showing the appropriate sites for new cities, which that city site completely ignores.

I'm going to stress this again, because we've had a few problems with it along the way, so here comes the bold print:

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO IN A SUCCESSION GAME IS LISTEN TO YOUR TEAMMATES. THE MOST ANNOYING THING YOU CAN DO IN A SUCCESSION GAME IS IGNORE THE SUGGESTIONS OF YOUR TEAMMATES.

This doesn't mean that you have to be an automaton in a succession game and just do whatever your teammates want, with no input. Far from it. Plenty of things happen from turn to turn which require hands-on control. More importantly, the best way to learn in a succession game (which is part of the point, after all) is if you see something you don't understand the reasoning for, ask your teammates why! Overseer, Lanzelot and I have all posted various dotmaps showing where cities ought to go. We all disagree to some degree on exactly where, which clearly shows that city siting is far from an exact science. But the best way to figure out who's "right" is to talk it out.

3. "Pop-rush a archer in Hamburg to attack the spear that'll be in range in a few turns (it only cost 1 pop)."

This is a no-no. Please, please, please never do this. We're in absolutely no danger from a wandering spear that will be in range in a few turns. At the absolute worst, our workers will have to scurry for cover and we'll have to wait a teeny bit for a couple of archers to be built and squash them. (Not very long since Berlin should crank out archers pretty fast.) Population is a precious resource. The only time pop-rushing anything is viable in these sorts of games is when a town is in severe danger of being overrun and you need to rush Walls or a defender to help defend the city.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I see many of my thoughts here, which I refrained from saying because I want to encourage the team. Sparthage, sorry if it got a little rough, but everything DW posted is spot on. I noticed that Heidelberg is also poorly positioned for several reasons: it is CxxxC from anything else and is on a sugarcane, which is an extra shield in despotism or extra food in a higher government, lost by settling on top of. Please take this as constructive criticism, doing something wrong can teach more than doing something right, since there would be no discussion if you had played perfectly.

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, <deep breath>. Everything that DWetzel and the Overseer said, is completely right.

Please read what the team mates have posted so far! And if you don't agree with a particular point, then don't simply overrule it by your actions in your turn set, but discuss it here in the thread!

You violated against so many decisions the team had made in the previous posts, that I have trouble counting them!

Why do we post dotmaps, if you just choose to ignore them? In case you think you found a better location than the ones we agreed upon, it would be ok, if you posted your reasons of why you think the new locations are better than the ones in the dotmap. But just silently ignoring the dotmaps without team-involvement is not acceptable. Especially if it ends up in two very poor city locations. Settling on a bonus resource (sugar in case of Heidelberg, bonus shield in case of Blitzkrieg City) just wastes the bonus! The city center will still have the standard 2/1/1 production.
Back then, when we discussed why the chosen location of Leipzig was bad, several people already explained that settling at distance 4 is bad, because it makes it impossible to move reinforcements into the town within one turn. Now you repeat the same mistake that we already discussed back then.
And another point: the settlers had to walk a very long time without any roads to get to those bad locations where you actually settled! Lots of wasted time, while the good locations, that could have been reached within 2 turns from Leipzig, are still unsettled! (Especially New City 4 in my dotmap, which would have been a valuable river town and which is now almost impossible to settle because of the completely misplaced Blitzkrieg City.)
My recommendation: change both these towns to settler now. The settler will complete before these towns reach size 3 and then we can disband the towns for a settler, at least recovering the precious bonus tiles.

Two or three people said we should now shut research down for a while until we raked in all the available techs from the GLib. You researched anyway, even at full speed (and not even consulting the team, what the next research goals should be) and basically wasted around 250 gold.

Also I think we agreed on that we need more workers now. (I found at least two posts from DWetzel and myself saying that.) But if I read your turnlog correctly, Leipzig didn't build any workers yet!
Even worse: the existing workers chopped three forests!!! We want those shields when building expensive improvements, like markets/libraries, but not for cheap 20-shield archers!! (There was probably even shield-overrun, when chopping a forest into an archer, wasting a good portion of the ten shields?!) And all that time the important river grasslands, that I mentioned last time when scolding Gamezrule for roading these forests, are still not improved!!!
And what's even worse: one of the forests you just chopped, was essential for making the settler factory work!! Didn't you realize that the two shields gained from this forest on growth every two turns, are vitally important for getting the necessary 30 shields in 4 turns?? Fortunately Hamburg still has a forest, which we can use for the SF now, otherwise the SF would now be destroyed.

Finally: if you read carefully my post #233 (in which I explained the operation of the SF), you will notice that I even indicated the points in the cycle, where luxury has to be increased in order to prevent Leipzig from revolting. Still you let our most important town riot not once, but even twice with in the short period of 10 turns! Who said that you have to rush through your turns in a hurry? Here's another basic rule for succession games: take your time, play slowly and carefully! We are not trying to break the world record for the highest number of turns in the shortest possible time... We are trying to play high-quality civ!
You only need to play 10 turns, and you may take several days for that, so basic things like making sure the most important town doesn't riot should be taken for granted.

In all seriousness: if this were a Deity game, it would probably already be lost by this point! On Monarch we will of course still win, but even on Emperor the outcome may already be in doubt.

And I honestly wonder, why do people like Optional, DWetzel, TheOverseer and myself take all that time for writing everything down and creating nice dotmaps for all to download etc, if nobody seems to read that stuff?!

Ok, anyway, someone said "never look back", so who's up now? I guess DWetzel. Do you agree with my proposal to settler-disband the new towns and shifting them to the correct locations? Sure, it will throw us back big-time, but both of these towns stick out like sore thumbs, and I think in the long run it will be better for us if we correct the mistake right away, than to live with it for a long time to come.

Lanzelot