IL2T - maybe they've started to beat the first nation? Atm they have score 1,5 times lower than ours, and Isabella is on par with us. They might wait till maces or smth while colonizing and developing. They ain't a superproteam, you know.
SGOTM 02 - Team CFR
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
IL2T
Prince
Lexad said:
Now, we have 130 turn - 550 BC.
1100 AD is a 240 turn. Difference - 110 turn.
Research rate i didn't estimate, looked that you written!
IL2T
Prince
I'm not sure about second nation! But line on the score results too abrupt for one nation.Lexad said:
Can one our continent give 2000 GS at 1500 AD?
I think our research will be sped up a lot once we conquer Spain and build the Colossus. Each spanish city can produce lots of commerce using sea tiles. And don't forget about cottages. The 4th GS comes too late without Caste System, and if we do switch to CS, Kyoto alone can generate GSs quickly. So I think we should just play on and don't warry about GSs too much. Let just Kyoto generate them and keep other cities pumping out swords. The library in Edo was then a clear waste, but lets forget about it and play on.
Of course we will conquer Spain and settle any decent spots on our continent long before we discover Astronomy, but we can use this time to build some infrastructure to make the upcoming conquest faster. Forges will allow us to pump samurais and galeons faster and courts will allow us to keep more cities on the other continent (even an extra mediocre city may be usefull for several extra cats and faster healing). And if we'll still feal that Astronomy comes too slow we can switch to CS for a while.
Of course we will conquer Spain and settle any decent spots on our continent long before we discover Astronomy, but we can use this time to build some infrastructure to make the upcoming conquest faster. Forges will allow us to pump samurais and galeons faster and courts will allow us to keep more cities on the other continent (even an extra mediocre city may be usefull for several extra cats and faster healing). And if we'll still feal that Astronomy comes too slow we can switch to CS for a while.
Unfortunately, Kyoto can't generate GS quickly under caste system as it is low on happiness. Current pop limit is 4, new happiness buildings only with Construction. Hereditary rule you've once proposed can be the answer, it requires Monarchy which we should put into research schedule. I would like to get a more clear picture of our development to avoid misunderstanding
Edit: however, my own calculations give ~70 research after Spanish campaign, which more than doubles current value, and even more after. After having a thought I agree that the research will be much quicker. 1st phase - it will still move slowly ~25-30 turns while we establish research base in our and Spanish cities, and in a meanwhile we use 2 GS to get Compass and Optics, but during the period and later it will accelerate significantly, so 3 GS will be enough, and the 3rd will be finishing the Astronomy, noy starting. Thanx, Obormot, I hope I got your point.
Still, I prefer to set up library in Edo ASAP because Edo has access to all continental happiness resources and thus can sustain significant population and be boosted by Caste System the most efficiently.
Colossus is short-lived, but it pays out, esp. when its hammer price is halved by copper. The question is, will we use sea tiles enough? In SGOTM-1 almost none were used, besides resources, but there we had non-stop war-build mode and little growth.
Edit: however, my own calculations give ~70 research after Spanish campaign, which more than doubles current value, and even more after. After having a thought I agree that the research will be much quicker. 1st phase - it will still move slowly ~25-30 turns while we establish research base in our and Spanish cities, and in a meanwhile we use 2 GS to get Compass and Optics, but during the period and later it will accelerate significantly, so 3 GS will be enough, and the 3rd will be finishing the Astronomy, noy starting. Thanx, Obormot, I hope I got your point.
Still, I prefer to set up library in Edo ASAP because Edo has access to all continental happiness resources and thus can sustain significant population and be boosted by Caste System the most efficiently.
Colossus is short-lived, but it pays out, esp. when its hammer price is halved by copper. The question is, will we use sea tiles enough? In SGOTM-1 almost none were used, besides resources, but there we had non-stop war-build mode and little growth.
IL2T
Prince
Correction: 4, not 5!Lexad said:
IL2T
Prince
Tech cost:
Compass - 897
Optics - 1345
Astronomy - 4485
3 GS will use мore effectively: 1 for Optics and 2 for Astronomy!
Difference is 4485 - 2300 (~GS value) - 897 = 1288
Compass - 897
Optics - 1345
Astronomy - 4485
3 GS will use мore effectively: 1 for Optics and 2 for Astronomy!
Difference is 4485 - 2300 (~GS value) - 897 = 1288
In SGOTM-1 we had a very powerfull capital that produced most of our research, so we didn't need high commerce in other cities. On the other hand our expansion was slow and we desperately needed the hammers to pump out more units. So we didn't bother increasing our population and building granaries and lighthouses, but just used the high hammer tiles ASAP. In this game we'll have to grow all our cities to the happiness limit. The first thing we should build in captured towns is a granary which we can poprush (lost population will regrow quickly). Building granries also fits perfectly with using slavery.
IL2T said:
I also thoughtof it, but then changed my mind, cause:
Simply speaking, researching Compass ourselves at current low research will take very long. We lose momentum of fast caravels, techtrade and knowledge of enemy locations. Moreover, when we arrive at Astronomy research era, our science will be no less than 100 vs current 30+ (benchmark set by Dynamic, I find it realistic, described earlier on this page), so it will actually take less turns to finish researching Astronomy ourselves! 100/30 > (4485 - 2300)/897.
The important thing here is turns, not bulbs.
IL2T
Prince
One of the our basic ideas is scientific minimalism!
It seems, that its correctness needs to be proved not at an intuitive level.
We need correct calculation! Machinery will research some turn... Let's wait.
It seems, that its correctness needs to be proved not at an intuitive level.
We need correct calculation! Machinery will research some turn... Let's wait.
IL2T said:
Actually the research strategy is that we switch off scientific development after we get our troop techs, but there we must get as soon as possible. Another Idea is research flexibility, and libraries in good production towns or pop-rushing towns (the same) are just in the line.
Dynamic
But not hurry
IL2T said:
Right, but we need contacts ASAP for trading CoL and Calendar. This techs are also cost beakers and we very need its. Without CoL our science will be limited by high maintenance, don't forget we haven't super capital in this game yet because of missing Academy. Of course commerce resources are very good, but it's not enough, we will need Cotteges, may be we need additional city on E from Osaka for Floodplains Cottages.
Dynamic
But not hurry
But now we need blitz war against Barbs and Spain without high loss. In other case we will need to build army instead of improvements.
About Colossus... for now I doubt we need it, but I'm ready to change my mind by arguments. Principally we can rush it in South city, Cordoba will be busy by Scientists and have low production. But, we need Forge before Colossus...
Generally I think for now we need speed up our military forces and don't build any other things. Edo's Barracks can be rushed by chopping. If we will build enough Swords in the short time we could start improvements earlier. And, I don't like to force Scientists now.
About Colossus... for now I doubt we need it, but I'm ready to change my mind by arguments. Principally we can rush it in South city, Cordoba will be busy by Scientists and have low production. But, we need Forge before Colossus...
Generally I think for now we need speed up our military forces and don't build any other things. Edo's Barracks can be rushed by chopping. If we will build enough Swords in the short time we could start improvements earlier. And, I don't like to force Scientists now.
Cat Behemoth
Warlord
550 BC (0) - eastern warrior moved E to walk through the coast line. Don't use boat in Kioto while - may be we'll use it later for exploration if enemy borders expands.
535 BC (1) - Isabella came and wants to trade fish for sheep. Useless for us for a while and she did not take it. Worker near Edo helps to farm wheat.
520 BC (2) - first two swords are ready. Osaka - another sword, Tokyo - axeman.
490 BC (4) - axeman chopped in Tokyo and Hinduism spreads there. Next production swordsman.
475 BC (5) - Hinduism in Toledo. Borders of Osaka expands. A lot of chanses of culture flip, I think.
460 BC (6) - Swordsman ready in Osaka. Building Library. Eastern warrior finished exploration of easterm coat but seems didn't find anything interesting.
430 BC (8) - forest grow near Edo, but outside the cultural borders. Two swords attack Yayoi, both won (the second was promoted against city first). A few thought - axemen promoted against archery, also attack and also won. Yayoi is our's, 59 gold in addition. 3 turns of revolt.
415 BC (9) - Edo chopped barracks, starts Library.
400 BC (10) - Tokyo chopped swordsman.
385 BC (11) - accidentaly pressed end of turn. Hinduism spreads in Yayoi. Revolt there finished. Somebody was born somewhere.
So the briefing - capturing Yayoi. Attacking army - 4 swords and 1 axe (second promotion was medic). Hinduism in 2 our and 1 foreign cities. Btw the spanish population of Toledo reducing constantly and now its only 1% of spanish. May be it's a reason for our future war against them to be started in another direction. Exploration of coastline almost finished and seems to be Astronomy is absolutly needed.
535 BC (1) - Isabella came and wants to trade fish for sheep. Useless for us for a while and she did not take it. Worker near Edo helps to farm wheat.
520 BC (2) - first two swords are ready. Osaka - another sword, Tokyo - axeman.
490 BC (4) - axeman chopped in Tokyo and Hinduism spreads there. Next production swordsman.
475 BC (5) - Hinduism in Toledo. Borders of Osaka expands. A lot of chanses of culture flip, I think.
460 BC (6) - Swordsman ready in Osaka. Building Library. Eastern warrior finished exploration of easterm coat but seems didn't find anything interesting.
430 BC (8) - forest grow near Edo, but outside the cultural borders. Two swords attack Yayoi, both won (the second was promoted against city first). A few thought - axemen promoted against archery, also attack and also won. Yayoi is our's, 59 gold in addition. 3 turns of revolt.
415 BC (9) - Edo chopped barracks, starts Library.
400 BC (10) - Tokyo chopped swordsman.
385 BC (11) - accidentaly pressed end of turn. Hinduism spreads in Yayoi. Revolt there finished. Somebody was born somewhere.
So the briefing - capturing Yayoi. Attacking army - 4 swords and 1 axe (second promotion was medic). Hinduism in 2 our and 1 foreign cities. Btw the spanish population of Toledo reducing constantly and now its only 1% of spanish. May be it's a reason for our future war against them to be started in another direction. Exploration of coastline almost finished and seems to be Astronomy is absolutly needed.
Cat Behemoth
Warlord
A few comments. I'm a peaceful man, I can't build just troops. 
I like the idea with scientists in Edo, so I decided to chop Library there. It can be rushed or chopped in nearby 3-4 turns then we can continue with troops there. Also Library in Osaka for a case if we can't trade CoL very fast and would have to teach it ourselves (for example I don't like idea to trade Optic to AI). Tokyo continue producing swords, so when the capturers of Yayoi will return - it will can produce/chop/rush 3-4 swords. 1-2 can be taken from Edo and 1 from Osaka at the end of next 10 turns. It will be enough to start spanish campaign.
I like the idea with scientists in Edo, so I decided to chop Library there. It can be rushed or chopped in nearby 3-4 turns then we can continue with troops there. Also Library in Osaka for a case if we can't trade CoL very fast and would have to teach it ourselves (for example I don't like idea to trade Optic to AI). Tokyo continue producing swords, so when the capturers of Yayoi will return - it will can produce/chop/rush 3-4 swords. 1-2 can be taken from Edo and 1 from Osaka at the end of next 10 turns. It will be enough to start spanish campaign.Good, conquest starts!
Spain now has iron working, though no Iron, but at least the clean these jungle a little for us.
Cities do not flip during wartime, sorry.
Madrid: recently I had an experience of assaulting 40%-culture city on a hill protected by archers with 2 promotions. It's hell. Bring at least double numbers.
Also a small reminder for conquerors (by akots in previous SGOTM) - choose production i captured city before revolt ends to get the hammers of 1 turn when it comes out of revolt state.
Spain now has iron working, though no Iron, but at least the clean these jungle a little for us.
Cities do not flip during wartime, sorry.
Madrid: recently I had an experience of assaulting 40%-culture city on a hill protected by archers with 2 promotions. It's hell. Bring at least double numbers.
Also a small reminder for conquerors (by akots in previous SGOTM) - choose production i captured city before revolt ends to get the hammers of 1 turn when it comes out of revolt state.
Well, I really don't like that we are building so much totally useless stuff. We have only 4 swords, but we have basicly shut down our military production. 
The library in Tokyo is only good if we want to stick to the 4 GS plan, but it seems that everybody agreed that the 4th GS comes too late anyway. I don't know should I finish it, or should I just throw away the hammers invested.
The library in Osaka is OK, but we should have only built it after we have enough swords. I think we should switch Osaka to military production now, and finish the library later.
Worker from Yayoi should have moved to the forest and started chopping the workboat immidiately. The worker near Tokyo should have built a pasture before chopping.
I will play my turns tomorrow.
EDIT: you also didn't oscillate the number of scientists in Kyoto which will delay Optics. Did you actually read any of the discussion before playing?
The library in Tokyo is only good if we want to stick to the 4 GS plan, but it seems that everybody agreed that the 4th GS comes too late anyway. I don't know should I finish it, or should I just throw away the hammers invested.
The library in Osaka is OK, but we should have only built it after we have enough swords. I think we should switch Osaka to military production now, and finish the library later.
Worker from Yayoi should have moved to the forest and started chopping the workboat immidiately. The worker near Tokyo should have built a pasture before chopping.
I will play my turns tomorrow.
EDIT: you also didn't oscillate the number of scientists in Kyoto which will delay Optics. Did you actually read any of the discussion before playing?
Dynamic
But not hurry
Bad session... Obormot already said most of points... I don't understand why? We missed 2 or 3 turns of Optics by mistake only... And Worker's actions... and buildings... don't want say more, sorry for emotions...
