SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

Stealing Rifling from Roosevelt should be quite easy as well. We'll have to move our spies into Troy on T0.

The factors for Rifling are:

Base cost: 3744
Religion: -40%
Trade Routes: 80% (assumes he doesn't revolt back to Mercantilism)
Culture: -40% (this is what it was in Troy last time we had a spy there)
EPP differential: 0.94 (current level)
Distance: 1.12 (Troy)

So, it works out to this (stationary bonus - assumes we move the spy in this turn):

(0% - T206): 1,703
(10% - T207): 1,533
(20% - T208): 1,362
(30% - T209): 1,192
(40% - T210): 1,022
(50% - T211): 851

We have 149 :espionage: on Roosevelt with a current passive rate of +302:espionage:/turn.

So, we could conceivable steal Rifling as early as T209 (T+4):

149 + 302 (T205 :espionage:) + 302 (T206 :espionage:) + 302 (T207 :espionage:) + 302 (T208 :espionage:) = 1,357 > 1,192.

If we direct our epp toward Stalin for 2 turns and steal MS first, then we'd be able to steal Rifling on T210:

149 + 302 (T207 :espionage:) + 302 (T208 :espionage:) + 302 (T209 :espionage:) = 1,055 > 1,022
 
I counted about 170-180 more fallout tiles to scrub. At an average of 5t/tile, that's 180tiles * 5wkr-t/tile = 900 wkr-t / 30 wkrs = 30 turns.

I don't think scrubbing tiles is an issue. More critical, imo, is building workshops or whatever improvements we need. I'd say we only build more workers if we need improvements sooner.

I agree. I was going to say something about this but forgot. We should have no need to build any more workers. He have enough now, plus we'll be adding to our work force soon. I'm surprised that we never got any from Churchill. They must be roading the ice tiles in the south. :lol:
 
Even without 2 popping confu missionaries I still think delaying the switch 1 turn and planning out what whips we need would be a useful exercise.

I would classify courthouses as essential buildings (and delaying 1 turn) allows us to whip 2 more courthouses. And gives us 1 courthouse at a cheaper rate since we can invest a turn into its build.

Whipping settlers is also something that makes sense since they stop growth and we get a 50% bonus. I think whipping the settlers and getting a few more sushi resources / mining resources makes sense. And thus increasing our population that much faster.

Sorry I was tired this morning (of course we can't whip the mining executive next turn)
 
Even without 2 popping confu missionaries I still think delaying the switch 1 turn and planning out what whips we need would be a useful exercise.

I think this comes down to what is more important. Getting the missionaries/ch built sooner (or with fewer pops whipped) or getting the Caste/Pacifism bonus for gpp production sooner.

I thought mdy had a plan for getting the 3 great people needed while still building in a turn delay on the switch to CS/Pac (but firing off the GA on T0). I'm fine either way, but mdy has to make a plan that fits with the switch, so I'm inclined to hear his plan first before making a decision.

Don't forget that Castes also gives us a +1:hammers: for workshops, which can be pretty big. It could speed up WS/Verseilles, etc. by a turn...
 
Hi RRRaskolnikov, have you caught up on our thread yet? At 3 posts a minute it takes work.

BTW, can I have your phone number? You're hot!! :lol:
 
I calculated that we have about 170-180 more fallout tiles to scrub. At an average of 5t/tile, that's 180tiles * 5wkr-t/tile = 900 wkr-t / 30 wkrs = 30 turns.

I don't think scrubbing tiles is an issue. More critical, imo, is building workshops or whatever improvements we need. I'd say we only build more workers if we need improvements sooner.

I think more workers would be better. There are a lot of tiles we want to change in addition to clearing fallout. 30 turns of scrubbing is a lot (and that is if we focused only on that)

Transporting the workers where we need them is something that takes time.

Wars will delay getting the workers to where we need them.

Workers now will pay off more than workers later (more use out of them)

Just building railroads is going to be worker intensive

Mining Coal, Aluminum

This is quite a bit for workers to do...

Not sure how many workers we can capture from Churchill... Are we reducing him to 1 city?

@Mitchum RRRaskolnikov is a guy :lol:
 
I thought mdy had a plan for getting the 3 great people needed while still building in a turn delay on the switch to CS/Pac (but firing off the GA on T0). I'm fine either way, but mdy has to make a plan that fits with the switch, so I'm inclined to hear his plan first before making a decision.

Yes I do have a plan, we can get 3GP's in the next 12 turns and still delay the switch for 1T.

I have drawn up a very rough plan for the next few turns. Doubtless this can be significantly improved, but I hope it can provide some kind of structure to our discussion:

Pre Play Plan v3:

Cities:

Moscow:
hires engineer,spy and on T+4 a scientist.
generates GP on T+6, then hires only scientists with the intention of providing a scientists for the 5 GP golden age.
Builds units(mainly cannons) - but interrupt for an observatory when necessary. Will need to temporarily stop working some mines to prevent some overflow being converted to gold. Work scientists instead.

Fish:

Fish: works fish, all land tiles except watermill(1T), then works watermill instead of gold.
T+0 Hires 2 merchants
T+1: grow and work lake
T+2: Hire an extra merchant and stop working the lake
T+4: Grows, Wall Street finished. Hire 14 merchants. Build wealth to preserve overflow.
Once mining corp founded fire 7 merchants for 1T to build the executive in 1T, then rehire them. Start workboats for eastern islands.
T+11: GP generated


Pigs:
T+0: Hire 2 artists only
T+1: Hire 9 artists (total)
T+2: Hire another artist
T+10: Hire max artists without starving
Whip university immediately, then build wealth.
Spread Sushi with the executive built in GP farm next term
This city can produce a GP for the 4 person golden age.

GP FARM:

works all hammer tiles, and however many farms are needed to ensure we grow at one pop a turn. After finishing the executive builds building allowing us to run specialists and spies. Specialists assigned in order - prophets-engineers-spies-merchants
This city can produce a GP in time for the 4GP golden age.

Siberia:

Immediately hire a spy and engineer, and then 3 more engineers once we have the ironworks, this should put this city in a position to generate a GP for our 4 GP golden age.Hire no more GP's here for now to work workshops.
T+2 Spread Shushi with executive from
T+3 Shushi executive for Beijing
T+4 Shushi executive for Paris
T+5 Build Levee
T+6 Shushi executive for Orleans
T+7 Mining corps executive
Continuously build mining corps executives.


Kamachka:
T+0 whip Sushi executive
T+1 Build Sushi executive for Siberia
T+2 Build Sushi executive for Orleans
Hire a spy, and then scientists as the city grows.
Build 3 settlers, 1 for the copper site in the south 1, 1 for the iceball iron city, and 1 for the 2 clam island. Then build a couple of spies. Then start university.

1 galley in this are permanently assigned to transporting executives


Bananas:
Whip university, workboat for clams near Moscow, workboat for the copper sites fish, build wealth, hire spy
Builds any extra spies we might need.

Bermuda:
Spread Sushi using executive built in Bahamas next turn
Finishes Versailles, builds 3 settlers/market/university/temple
Hires, engineer, spys, prophet, then artists as it grows
Should generate a GP in time for fourth GP golden age

Bahamas:
Builds executives.
Keeps the current 5 spys. Slot in happy buildings in any gaps.

BCool:
whips university, spreads Sushi using executive currently in Bahamas. Builds workboats for island cities, and later executives/harbour.

Haiti:
Continues building courthouse. Hire merchants as specialists as it grows.

The Crabbes:
Whip library then builds university, hire spy, engineer and then artists as specialists

Iron Spice:
Continues with granary(chopped), then start courthouse

Cuba:
Whip university, start grocer start market hire spy and engineer specialist only.

Steam;
Continue building wealth.
Hire citizen instead of working farm.
Only use it to steal steam power from Churchill.

Rheims:
Hires merchants once it has run out of land tiles.

T+0 Shushi spread by executive in steam
T+1 Shushi executive built, send to hammer city
Builds more executives. When numbers limit interferes build
university-temple-jail-colloseum
Order:
Shaghai
Rooservelt
London
Other executives go to the China/England area.
Can generate a GP in time for 4 GP golden age.

Orleans:
Build longbows for military garrisons, and later executives

Paris:
start temple, whip T+1, overflow into knight, then build second temple-library-university
Immediately hire 3 prophets, and build temples to allow us to hire 2 more. Hire 4th prophet on T+2, 5th when second temple built.

Hammer City:
Build forge
Sushi spread on T+1 with executive from Rheims.
Whip forge nest turn, build leveee
build executives for other cities.
Build market in any gaps, we will need the happiness here at some point.

Tours:
Whip granary, continue with courthouse

Hastings:
start courthouse,whip courthouse, continue with granary

Nanjing:
Whip courthouse, then granary-forge

Shanghai:
build grocer-wealth, hire merchants as specialists

Beijing:
whip university, temple then 3 workboats for the fish to the S once we are at peace with Churchill. Hire only prophet and engineer in addition to the spies.This city can produce a GP for our 4 GP golden age.

Guangzhou:
lighthouse-library-university

Chengdu:
whips library, starts university

Catured cities from Churchill:
build replace courthouse/granary/lighthouse, then build library/university.

Are we still moving the palace to Churchill's lands?


New Cities:

We have 6 sites we would like to settle for there resources fairly soon:
1) A city to grab the fish and copper SW of crabs
2) 4E 1N of Bermuda
3) 3N of Bermuda
4) 3S 2E of pig
5) The clam island near Stalin
6) Iceball iron city south of Curchill


Sites 4, 5 and 6 can be founded with settlers from Kamchtka

Bahamas can build the other 3 by T+8 .

There are some other islands we can settle, but they will have to wait till astronomy.

Build courthouse-granary in all new cities

Workers:

BCool island currently has 4 workers. Leave 3 to improve/scrub that island, move one back in time to railroad mines on Bahamas island. The worker currently scrubbing the island to the north will join them, then more those 2 workers back to the mainland.

9 worker in Tours-Hammer City area scrub the surrounding area then 7 build railroad into England and Gandhi. Other 2 remain to workshop around hammer city. The workers building the railroad should build forts near hasting and Mitchums Oasis to ease logistics.

3 workers in France area scrub then build railroad extension into America area.

4 workers in Moscow area scrub, farm, and then railroad towards Rheims.

3 workers to the north scrub, then railroad Siberia-Troy-Moscow.

Once this hub is set up railroad over mines and to link other key cities up.

Divert any worker to mine any nearby coal that shows up.





Churchill War:

Cease fire next turn after capturing Canterbury/Newcastle/Marseilles. Canterbury attack starts this turn. Gift steam and steal steam power. Redeclare next turn.

Units in rear move towards India/America.

London stack moves on Nottingham-Coventry

Canterbury stack moves on Warick

This will leave Churchill stuck in steam

cease fire with Churchill.gift him an iceball city and then take steam with units left over from the Churchill stack. OR just leave him stuck in steam for now.



Mao War/Stalin war

Gift China iceball to China declare war on him, then use knight in capital and cannon to capture St Nick. Send 1 spy to north into it. When they have 50% stationary discount gift to Stalin. and steal militray science. Galley in area goes to move settler from Karamchka to Northern islands.

I'd get at least the China part of the war out of the way now, whilst we can without his Caravels near Beijing causing us trouble.

Scout to north of Stalin with caravel.

The Stalin gift will occur on T+6 (T211) provided our scouts shows Stalin isn't going to settle another city.




Espionage: Steal military tradition from Stalin (Just needs 1T more of espionage on him, do after we have enough for astronomy on Gandhi), astronomy from Gandhi, then rifling from Rooservelt.

Send both spies north of St Nick in there as soon as we capture in from Mao. Send the one near, Troy and 1 spy from steam (after the steal has been concluded) to galley city. Any survivors from the Military Tradition steal head towards Troy in preparation for the astronomy steal.

Misc:

Trade Gandhi dye for fish.

Revolt to caste system/pacifism/civil service.

Settle next GG in Moscow
 
Hi RRRaskolnikov, have you caught up on our thread yet? At 3 posts a minute it takes work.

:cooool: I am here folks... I skip most of the micro and calculations and it is still good enough for wasting some hours a day :lol: :goodjob:

BTW, can I have your phone number? You're hot!! :lol:

Removed the color thingy so everyone can see how pretty it is! :mischief:

Sure... you might be slightly disappointed Mitchum though :lmao:
 
I would prioritize spreading Sushi to Hammer City pretty high. It needs to grow at 1pop per turn and work new workshops, building forge-levee. We want it up to pop20 asap. Siberia should also build a levee asap.

I think GP Farm should be just that from now on, after finishing the current exec. I would work enough food tiles to grow 1pop per turn and work enough additional food tiles to run max specs. We don't just need 3 more GPs in 12 turns, we also need 7 more in 24 turns and 11 more in 36 turns. We need to get ahead of the game to ensure that we'll have the right mix of GPs.

One more thing: GP Farm should have ALL farms pre-wkshped, eventually, for building space parts. That's not too far off...
 
If we need more workers, we should harvest them. The AI is dumb, right? We could build a Guerilla 2 unit for capturing workers unawares at Nottingham, etc etc. There's just no reason to build them. We stopped focusing on it. IF we need more, then we focus on it.

Another possibliity would be to build a stable in MOscow, then a knight with Flanking II + mobility.
 
I would prioritize spreading Sushi to Hammer City pretty high. It needs to grow at 1pop per turn and work new workshops, building forge-levee. We want it up to pop20 asap. Siberia should also build a levee asap.

I agree we need Sid' there very quickly. If we use the executive in steam to spread Sushi to Rheims, then Rheims can immediately build an executive for hammer city, and spread it there on T+1.

Siberia will be mainly building executives for a while, as we can build 1/T without a levee I think this can wait for a while.


One more thing: GP Farm should have ALL farms pre-wkshped, eventually, for building space parts. That's not too far off...

I think this can wait for a while, building railroads to assist with the war and spreading corporations will keep most of our workers occupied for now.
 
Thanks for putting this together so quickly. We all know how tough it can be to take ideas from 100s of posts and put them all into a cohesive plan. :goodjob:

On a general note, it appears that you are firing some spies in our cities. We'll have to re-work our :espionage: plan once we know how many spies we'll be running.

Also, things are going to get tricky soon with both Mining Inc and Sushi executives to build. Can you provide a general plan for how you plan to spread each corporation. Plus, it would be good to infect Roosevelt with both of them too.

We may want to think about building a theater in every city. They are cheap and will help us a lot when we start to use the culture slider.

Do we really need Sushi in every city right away? It currenly cost 44.41 gpt (22 w/courthouse). That's pretty expensive. If the city can't grow much or use the extra food, do we really benefit? As an example, can Bermuda leverage Sushi right now? Sure, we could stop working the pig and sheep tile and work shop over them, but we're at our happy cap already as it is...

Fish: works fish, all land tiles except gold. Hires merchant and engineer

Why the engineer? With all of the wealth multipliers, I think we should hire merchants all the way. The odds of a GE are so low if you only hire one and he'd be used on our three person GA whether a GA or GE, right?


Siberia:

Immediately hire a spy and engineer, and then 3 more engineers once we have the ironworks, this should put this city in a position to generate a GP for our 4 GP golden age.

I haven't done the gpp workout all the way to the 4 GP golden age, but with the GA being launched this turn and then revolting to Castes, those workshops are going to be very tempting to work... Also, please put a levee in your build plans.

Kamachka:
Build 3 settlers, 1 for the copper site in the south 1 to iceball Churchill, and 1 for the 2 clam island. Then build a couple of spies.

Churchill is effectively iceballed already. We could just leave him in Warwick (or Steam) if we wanted (would we even keep that city?), although we would want to scrub the tiles in the area with units to protect them in our next war so that we don't have to worry about it later.

Bananas:
Whip university, workboat for clams near Moscow, workboat for the copper sites fish, build wealth, hire spy

I think we'll want to build all science-multiplying building in every city. We'll be running a lot of specialist and even non-scientists generate a fair amount of beakers under Representation.

Bermuda:
Spread Sushi using executive built in Bahamas next turn
Finishes Versailles, build executives for the island cities, builds market/temple when we cant't build them there.

Can you add a university to the wish list here? I guess the market/temple/grocer will take precedence as the city grows. In fact, we already have +7 food and not much room to grow here due to happiness issues. Do we need Sushi here right now? Sure, it's a great executive pump, but so is Bahamas...

BCool:
whips university, spreads Sushi using executive currently in Bahamas. Builds workboats for island cities. Hire scientists as specialists

Happy buildings aren't needed right now, but eventually we'll need a market, grocer and theater here.

The Crabbes:
Whip library then builds wealth, hire spy, engineer and then artists as specialists

A university would be nice. Also, if we'll never get a great person from here, why not hire merchants/scientists only?

Cuba:
Whip university, start market hire spy and engineer specialist only.

Again, if no GP from here, we should favor merchants/scientists.

Rheims:
Whip university

On T+1, right?

Paris:
Whip knight, immediately hire 3 prophets, and build temples to allow us to hire 2 more.

Do we need to whip here? Whip unhappiness is already at +4 here. Plus, if we're going to whip, I'd prefer a 2 pop temple whip on T+1 (after investing hammers in it) so that we get the extra OR hammers on our whip.

Hammer City:
Build forge

Then what? This city is going to be cranking out hammers soon, so you might want to plan a bit further ahead here.

Nanjing:
Whip courthouse, then granary-forge

I forgot to mention that our granary got destroyed here a turn or two back.

Guangzhou:
lighthouse-wealth

LH -> Lib -> Uni?

By my count, we have 31 cities but you've only talked about 25 of them... ;)


2) 4E 1N of Bermuda
3) 3N of Bermuda
5) The clam island near Stalin

These cities give us 1 extra seafood each. Will they pay off in 45 turns? I don't know the answer, but it will take some time to build granary -> ch -> library -> university -> etc... Mining Inc will help, but these cities would likely be pretty low on the list of cities to get Mining Inc quickly. Clam Island will also take quite a few worker turns to set up...

6) Iceball for Churchill

As I said above, I don't see this as mandatory if we have more important places to settle or more important things to build other than settlers.


We still have a lot of tiles to improve, especially around newly settled/capture cities. 6 workers can lay down tracks at 3 tiles/turn (as long as they avoid ice/desert I believe, unless the Hagia bonus makes these a 2-turn improvement). I wonder if that's enough to get the RR built from France -> Roosevelt to get our current troops quickly to the western front...



Churchill War:

Cease fire next turn after capturing Canterbury/Newcastle. Gift steam and steal steam power. Redeclare next turn units in rear capture Marseilles. Canterbury attack starts this turn

We can take Marseilles before the CF as long as we're sure Churchill didn't settle another city. I guess it's six of one, half dozen the other.

Michum Oasis stack moves on Newcastle

You took this already before the CF, right?

Also, we don't HAVE to take Churchill's crappy cities right away. He's so far out of it now that he'll never be a problem again. We can take these cities at any time (if we want them...). It might be more important to get our units up to America/India sooner...

St Nick. Send 2 spies to north into it. When they have 50% stationary discount gift to Stalin. and steal militray science.

The risk here is that Stalin settles a fourth city in those 5 turns...

Espionage: Steal astronomy from Gandhi, military tradition from Stalin, then rifling from Rooservelt.

Hmm... we don't have a spy near Galley city for Astronomy at the moment but we do have one for MT and Rifling. Can you please detail how you plan to do this with our current spies and who you will direct :espionage: toward and when? It can get complicated unless it is well planned in advance.

There are bound to be tons of x-posts since it took me a while to finish this...
 
Siberia will be mainly building executives for a while, as we can build 1/T without a levee I think this can wait for a while.
Siberia has 19 river tiles. Six of those river tiles will gain 2h from teh levee during GAs. That's a total potential of 25base hpt. Multiplied by 125%, that 56hpt. That's 9% of our total debt per turn at 100% research, all from a single 180h building. And that's before factories... I doubt there's any other build in any city from now on that has a better return.

I absolutely agree that railroads and other improvements are more important right now.
 
Don't understand why we're mixing genetics so much. Fish should only run merchants. GP Farm should only run either scientists or merchants (depending on other plans). It's easier to plan the future GA's if we can count on Caste types at near certainty (plus, they are more useful for turn-by-turn benefit).

We have GP/GE/Spy coming from (potentially) all of Bermuda, Beijing, Siberia and London. That's two more than we need. Other than that and artists in Pigs, I think we should be running sci/mer everywhere.
 
Stalin

I just took a closer look at Stalin's lands and it looks like there is a break in the ice north of Stalingrad and there may also be fallout up there.

I think that after the caravel has scouted just a bit east to make sure that there are no islands over there (looks safe but who knows), he should hang out north of Stalingrad to make sure that he doesn't send a settler party up there.

If he doesn't try to settle north, we'd be safe in gifting him St. Nick on T211 so that we get the full 50% stationary bonus on Military Science. Then, you could direct just one turns worth of :espionage: on Stalin (or even a partial turn to get us ~480:espionage: just to be safe). Then you could already start directing our espionage toward the leader who has the next tech we plan to steal.

Regarding Astronomy, I agree with LC. I think we should plan on getting this in trade from either Gandhi or Roosevelt rather than trying to steal it. Mao will have it in 127 turns too. :lol:
 
I think we'll want to build all science-multiplying building in every city. We'll be running a lot of specialist and even non-scientists generate a fair amount of beakers under Representation.

I was thinking about this too, I was just doubtfull about whether they would pay off in time in our low production cities. What does everyone else think.
 
We have GP/GE/Spy coming from (potentially) all of Bermuda, Beijing, Siberia and London. That's two more than we need. Other than that and artists in Pigs, I think we should be running sci/mer everywhere.
I'd like to second this motion.

This is why I want to get GP Farm going on GP spamming. And some other cities too. If we can get a head of the game, by spamming 5 GPs, for example, before we need to pick three of them for the 3-GP GA, then we'll be able to pump up our reserach even more with only GS's.
 
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