SGOTM 18 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I hope you have had fun in your holidays.
What is eu4?
only UT can upload the save with the units moved, but you can use the test save for anything else.
This is what i found after your post about coordinates, in case you missed it:
I don't know how you "measured" those 24 tiles, anyway i think that the error margin is the one i quoted.
I doubt that we'll use Swingers pad in the test to test esp. missions and such. At that time the test will presumably be abandoned.
I think settling on desert is too obvious and it is a trap 
Mapmaker also foerced us not to settle on marble by improving it even though we know masonry and it is a trap too
BUT
We (almost) agreed that settling on desert is the safiest way to start and we should do it finally
or at least not to argue about it any more.
We will win the game anyway won't we?
Mapmaker also foerced us not to settle on marble by improving it even though we know masonry and it is a trap too BUT
We (almost) agreed that settling on desert is the safiest way to start and we should do it finally
or at least not to argue about it any more.We will win the game anyway
won't we?
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
And what is Europa Universalis4?
Europa Universalis4
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
As i posted days ago, the trap can be the abiliy to settle any PH on turn 0.I think settling on desert is too obvious and it is a trap
BUT
We (almost) agreed that settling on desert is the safiest way to start and we should do it finally
We will win the game anyway
The problem here is not to win the game, but to do it faster than the other teams.
Well, according to the Mapmaker this time can even be difficult to win the game. I doubt, but we'll see.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
OK, forget it, i got the torrent.And what is Europa Universalis4?
Mastiff_of_Ar
In his Element
I like the compromise. 1 turn (or maybe 0) to be sure we aren't being trapped by the mapmaker.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I overlooked this at first.
We're here to argue on anything. But argue means present pros and cons for a certain argument. At least possible pros.
Until now i have seen just "let's see what there can be N of the hills, no matter the cost".
It's just a poor way to discuss an argument, isn't it?
Again, i assume that no one of us will settle a food poor site to gain 1 hammer/turn for a few dozen turns.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
It's not the compromise: it's the whole question.
I find it very likely there is something more here. Settling PH will be better until we find more luxury resources. I would like to see the latest save to do some fog gazing. If there is nothing more we should probably farm our capital and make a commerce city somewhere else.
So I want us to go on hill. If there is nothing we settle, get granary and farms and expand. If there is food we settle and create a commerce capital.
I like settling on marble as well. It depends on what fog gazing shows. It there is FPs to the west I would like to settle on marble.
So I want us to go on hill. If there is nothing we settle, get granary and farms and expand. If there is food we settle and create a commerce capital.
I like settling on marble as well. It depends on what fog gazing shows. It there is FPs to the west I would like to settle on marble.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
I will upload the save as soon as I can get my other computer out.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I'd like to clarify this:
Settle on any hill without enough food N to compensate the 2 lost FPs is DISCARDED.
Settle on marble and lose 3 cpt is discarded twice.
If you like to lose 1 turn to appease your curiosity, let's do it.
But forget to settle on the hills if there's no food N just to not lose that turn.
And since 2 weeks are gone form the start of the competition and UT has a window to play Wednesday or thursday, i'd like to have this decided by Wednesday 08/21 evening.
I wanna add that, if we decide to climb the hills, if there's no food N he will turn S without any need to post.
Same if there's food, he will settle the resourceless PH. We can't spend more days to decide what can be decided before the above mentioned term.
Settle on any hill without enough food N to compensate the 2 lost FPs is DISCARDED.
Settle on marble and lose 3 cpt is discarded twice.
If you like to lose 1 turn to appease your curiosity, let's do it.
But forget to settle on the hills if there's no food N just to not lose that turn.
And since 2 weeks are gone form the start of the competition and UT has a window to play Wednesday or thursday, i'd like to have this decided by Wednesday 08/21 evening.
I wanna add that, if we decide to climb the hills, if there's no food N he will turn S without any need to post.
Same if there's food, he will settle the resourceless PH. We can't spend more days to decide what can be decided before the above mentioned term.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
I'm good with those parameters.
If I can settle the capital on Wednesday, then I can post some screen shots and maybe a PPP so that I can play more on Thursday or Friday.
If I can settle the capital on Wednesday, then I can post some screen shots and maybe a PPP so that I can play more on Thursday or Friday.
Two extra hammers a turn without citizen does not sound that bad. I see no reason why we should discard our fastest option for a start. 4H3C is a good tile, but if we mine the PH we have traded 2C for 1H which is a fair trade early on. If we want to work an other square we have gained 1H for free.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
All your reasoning can or cannot be good - or bad.
We can even test it to evaluate the comparisons long term between desert-PH-marble.
But if there's any food N or NW of the hills it's just time lost.
If there're more mountains N of the hills (chance that most of you seem to forget to take in account) turn back to the deset is the only choice.
Actually our choice - if we decide to climb the hill - is:
b1) Food and no more mountains = settle on PH
b2) No food and more mountains = settle on desert
b3) Food and more mountains = UT will stop and report
In case b1) or b2) are true UT is authorized to play until turn 20 or until the wheel is in (his choice). His PPP can be my Variant 2, which has already been tested also by Pigswill and which is the best possible option, just with a warrior instead of a granary between size 2 and size3/worker. Obviously, he won't need to shut down research on turn 0.
In case we decide to not waste 1 turn and use option a) trusting your Captain as a good foggazer/Mapmaker analyst like he is, he will adopt Variant 2 in all its splendor (with the warrior instead of granary).
UT, the most easy PPP ever for you... just copy/paste (you know how to do it, i suppose
)
Shaandore
another mathematician
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2010
- Messages
- 868
Hello, I'm back until tomorrow evening. Sorry for the silent treatment
Glad that I didn't miss much. I have some serious computer problems, but luckily my civ laptop is working
As I said earlier, the biggest disadvantage of the PH spot is lack of food long term. I think that 2 extra FPs easily beat the extra hammer. The decision IMO is to gamble for more food or not. And I stick to my vote because I think there won't be more food visible from the PH.
Even with the desert spot I don't see us doing too much whipping for a while. I doubt that BW opening is optimal here.
Glad that I didn't miss much. I have some serious computer problems, but luckily my civ laptop is working
As I said earlier, the biggest disadvantage of the PH spot is lack of food long term. I think that 2 extra FPs easily beat the extra hammer. The decision IMO is to gamble for more food or not. And I stick to my vote because I think there won't be more food visible from the PH.
Even with the desert spot I don't see us doing too much whipping for a while. I doubt that BW opening is optimal here.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I agree.
But BW first is useful to see the most important strat resource for the opening.
It's also a good thing to have the ability to revolt while the first settler is walking or just after the first worker is out. I prefer the first.
I suggested wheel after BW because we can need it and because it's cheap.
With pottery we can go straight to writing for a library or use AH to have a discount - and see horses - and then writing. I prefer the latter.
BLubmuz, if we settle desert, we would possibly delay bronze working after wheel-pottery (even writing?), there is no forest in BFC, so early whipping is not possible.
You also wrote that settling on marble is losing 4H3C tile - but it is not. It is converting it into 2F3H1. Riverside plainhill mine is only 2commerce less and it is not a big deal with gold in BFC. More hammers on the other side IS a big deal.
Looking at the screenshot we already have in the fog I suppose:
anticlockwise direction from mountain range: mountain, plainhill, riverside grass, riverside grass, riverside grass and at least 2 forests and 3 unrevealed tiles. It sounds really good for me for beaurocapital if we irrigate the only one floodplains (that gived us +8 food, that is growth every 3-4 turns. enough for early whipping). Having so many riverside grass we can irrigate one more and have some chance to get more resources there.
Greatplains mapscript is also poor with health resources and unless we get any from trade, 5 FP in BFC will be a unhealthiness problem changing cottaged FP practically into cottaged grassland.
Not being forced to go straight to pottery means also earlier settler and a second city with copper.
I am also still wondering, why mapmaker put a quarry if we already know masonry and are able to spawn worker early...
No time for test game yet
Anyway, settling "empty" PH is no option for me = too many unworkable tiles and a possibility to block anther nice floodplain city.
EDIT
We also know pottery, that means also quicker granaries and regrowth every 2-3 turns. It also determines delaying the wheel AFTER BW
You also wrote that settling on marble is losing 4H3C tile - but it is not. It is converting it into 2F3H1. Riverside plainhill mine is only 2commerce less and it is not a big deal with gold in BFC. More hammers on the other side IS a big deal.
Looking at the screenshot we already have in the fog I suppose:
anticlockwise direction from mountain range: mountain, plainhill, riverside grass, riverside grass, riverside grass and at least 2 forests and 3 unrevealed tiles. It sounds really good for me for beaurocapital if we irrigate the only one floodplains (that gived us +8 food, that is growth every 3-4 turns. enough for early whipping). Having so many riverside grass we can irrigate one more and have some chance to get more resources there.
Greatplains mapscript is also poor with health resources and unless we get any from trade, 5 FP in BFC will be a unhealthiness problem changing cottaged FP practically into cottaged grassland.
Not being forced to go straight to pottery means also earlier settler and a second city with copper.
I am also still wondering, why mapmaker put a quarry if we already know masonry and are able to spawn worker early...
No time for test game yet
Anyway, settling "empty" PH is no option for me = too many unworkable tiles and a possibility to block anther nice floodplain city.
EDIT
We also know pottery, that means also quicker granaries and regrowth every 2-3 turns. It also determines delaying the wheel AFTER BW
My test possibilities (I hope I have done micro quite well)
T0 - settling marble
Tech - mining
building: 1 turn of worker, then granary
t6 - border pop and we work gold mine, switch back to worker
T7 mining ready
T12 worker ready, move to floodplain, building granary
A
worker builds FARM
T16 BW ready, start AH
t17 Granary built, double warrior next, revolt to slavery (growth in 1 turn but farm is not ready),
t19 city grows, cancel worker, built farm --> farm ready move worker toward forest
t22 worker start chopimg, 1 turn to grow,
t23 Washington is 4, warrior ready, 6 overflow to settler
t24 chop done, AH done, research writing
t25 we can doublewhip settler with 12overflow, but we wait one more turn
t26 - doublewhip settler with 25 overlow (into worker = 3 more turns or 1 turn if another forest chopped, into barracks - 4 more turns, into grat wall for espionage or gold), regrowth to pop3 in 2 turns
B
Worker build cottage
rewolt t16, cottage not ready
t17 cottage ready, swap gold into cottage
worker goes toward forest,
t18 granary ready, growth in 1 turn
t22 first forest prechopped, moved to another, 1st warrior ready, start next
t23 2nd warrior ready, 1 turn into anything
t24 AH ready, growth, switch to settler
t25 first chop into settler
t27 2nd chop into settler, worker chops another forest or farms/cottages
t29 settler ready, switch to worker
T31 writing is online, double whip worker wit 24 overlow to library, chop into library
Both cases we get granary very early, very early library and 2 workers and a settler between 25 and 39 turn. Settling desert library will come at least few turns later even though we research writing slightly later
I see no need to go wheel before writing. We wont be able to hook up horses so early, especially if we settle desert (little chances to get them in capitals BFQ
T0 - settling marble
Tech - mining
building: 1 turn of worker, then granary
t6 - border pop and we work gold mine, switch back to worker
T7 mining ready
T12 worker ready, move to floodplain, building granary
A
worker builds FARM
T16 BW ready, start AH
t17 Granary built, double warrior next, revolt to slavery (growth in 1 turn but farm is not ready),
t19 city grows, cancel worker, built farm --> farm ready move worker toward forest
t22 worker start chopimg, 1 turn to grow,
t23 Washington is 4, warrior ready, 6 overflow to settler
t24 chop done, AH done, research writing
t25 we can doublewhip settler with 12overflow, but we wait one more turn
t26 - doublewhip settler with 25 overlow (into worker = 3 more turns or 1 turn if another forest chopped, into barracks - 4 more turns, into grat wall for espionage or gold), regrowth to pop3 in 2 turns
B
Worker build cottage
rewolt t16, cottage not ready
t17 cottage ready, swap gold into cottage
worker goes toward forest,
t18 granary ready, growth in 1 turn
t22 first forest prechopped, moved to another, 1st warrior ready, start next
t23 2nd warrior ready, 1 turn into anything
t24 AH ready, growth, switch to settler
t25 first chop into settler
t27 2nd chop into settler, worker chops another forest or farms/cottages
t29 settler ready, switch to worker
T31 writing is online, double whip worker wit 24 overlow to library, chop into library
Both cases we get granary very early, very early library and 2 workers and a settler between 25 and 39 turn. Settling desert library will come at least few turns later even though we research writing slightly later
I see no need to go wheel before writing. We wont be able to hook up horses so early, especially if we settle desert (little chances to get them in capitals BFQ
