SGOTM 18 Pregame Discussion Thread - Austin Powers

[Seraiel]

Thumbs up for that post.

I think I now got an explanation why I never every got the Tower Shield event in my games. I find it actually sad, that BUFFY disables those games, as it'd just be another option, that could really throw over a game, that maybe hasn't started so well (or it could create a really really strong game, if the game was already strong before) .

Question at WastinTime (or others) : Is it possible, that the "Charismatic" -Event (+2 Happiness in all cities or free March promotion for all units) is disabled by BUFFY? I tried to hunt for that one really often (and long) , but the only one's I only ever get are the REP, US or HR ones.

Seraiel

 

[Ronnie1]

WYTJOM is enough reason to avoid this setting, imo. The race for laurels of all colors tends to be decided by a handful of turns or less, and I do not want this random factor to be decisive. Therefore, I will remove this game option of complete kills. I am looking into ways to do so with minimal impact on what you have alreay seen and been told, and therefore your suggestions on how to do so are appreciated. Expect some change like that.

As to the previous post that wondered whether the screenshots depict the actual save... well no, obviuosly the team saves can't be made until the teams have been established. But the save you get to play will at least look like the screenshots, at least it will in the parts you can see now.

I would vote with WastinTime, leave the "require complete kill" setting in and don't kill the "crazy"!

 

[BLubmuz]

Thumbs up for that post.

I think I now got an explanation why I never every got the Tower Shield event in my games. I find it actually sad, that BUFFY disables those games, as it'd just be another option, that could really throw over a game, that maybe hasn't started so well (or it could create a really really strong game, if the game was already strong before) .

Question at WastinTime (or others) : Is it possible, that the "Charismatic" -Event (+2 Happiness in all cities or free March promotion for all units) is disabled by BUFFY? I tried to hunt for that one really often (and long) , but the only one's I only ever get are the REP, US or HR ones.

Seraiel

For what i know (but i think it's enough) BUFFY removes 4 or 5 disasters like Tsunami and such and modifies the Global Warming which happens in the very late game. It also makes more difficult the barb-spawn events, like the Philistines, Vedic Arians and such. And some few civ-related events (impeachment and such).

But the other events are untouched.

The one you mention can happen in the 65% of the games and has iWeight = 100, thus making it pretty common. The prereq are the Renaissance techs.
But probably you can't see because the Civic prereq: Police State, one which rarely a plyer uses.

 

[kcd_swede]

Right. I'm hoping you add two novelties for each one you remove. And this time, mum's the word.

I see your two and raise you 1.

It's strange how people continues to argue about proven things, with any possible reason, even the most imaginatives.

So, why not use "no espionage"? it has been proved broken, thus banned from the HoF, but it's there.
Or random events, or huts?

Because this is a tight competition and any random effect option must be removed, period. You can use those options in your solo games.

IMO the interesting aspect of this competition, aside the fact that play in team is nice, is that the (poor) mapmaker usually offers us (or tries to) new ways of thinking, by setting the map in a certain way or imposing particular rules.

I think that "unecessary" random things that are not easily countered by normal good BtS gameplay should be removed. I'm struggling to decide whether this setting fits that description or not. Presently leaning towards "remove this setting". And punish you for making me do so.

Careful with the hints We want to learn about all this during the game

Sorry... I've got a turtle head pokin' out and its getting squidgy...

ineffable?

Inconceivable.

I think the XotM games are the perfect place to explore the dark corners of the CivIV. More random stuff makes for more challenges that teams must adapt to. The entire game is based on random effects! Combat is random!

Random events are fun. BUFFY removes most of the large-impact ones. There's actually a lot of strategy to set up the pre-reqs to try to trigger the event you want.

btw, 'no espionage' would be fun! it's something we can't do in HoF games. Why not explore it here?

And I don't buy the argument that random events don't belong in a 'competition'. In fact, I don't buy that SGotM is really even very competitive! That's right, many teams aren't seriously competing with each other. Each team is just trying to learn more each time and apply more of their knowledge to the (crazy) scenario. It's the 'crazy' that makes SG's attractive. Don't kill the 'crazy'.

So my point is: Consider leaving 'require complete kills' and explore more exciting new options in the future. Either way you chose, it will be a great game!

Wow.. can't you all just agree on something?

Tu quoque, Bruti

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Thumbs up for that post.

I think I now got an explanation why I never every got the Tower Shield event in my games. I find it actually sad, that BUFFY disables those games, as it'd just be another option, that could really throw over a game, that maybe hasn't started so well (or it could create a really really strong game, if the game was already strong before) .

Question at WastinTime (or others) : Is it possible, that the "Charismatic" -Event (+2 Happiness in all cities or free March promotion for all units) is disabled by BUFFY? I tried to hunt for that one really often (and long) , but the only one's I only ever get are the REP, US or HR ones.

Seraiel

As my former teamate might point out... the way to counter the devastating effects of a single random event is to increase the number of such random events.

I would vote with WastinTime, leave the "require complete kill" setting in and don't kill the "crazy"!

Woohoo! You want to make my job easier! That and two or three bucks will get you a cup of coffee.

I'll probably just flip a coin... consider that your first random event in this competetion.

 

[LowtherCastle]

As my former teammate might point out... the way to counter the devastating effects of a single random event is to increase the number of such random events.

I'll probably just flip a coin... consider that your first random event in this competition.

Keep it simple. Roll dice...

EDIT: Okay here's your solution. If Blubmuz's team miraculously manages to eliminate an AI and that AI is still not DEAD, then they can simply submit the save to AlanH or you or me and we'll worldbuilder those pesky spies off the face of Earth. (Note the sneaky attempt to see if the map represents Earth or something else...)

Note that the note is a sneaky decoy to distract you from noticing that you might be giving me the keys to the worldbuilder save.

 

[Mad Professor]

So, why not use "no espionage"? it has been proved broken, thus banned from the HoF, but it's there.
Or random events, or huts?

Because this is a tight competition and any random effect option must be removed, period. You can use those options in your solo games.

Do you want to remove the RNG as well?

 

[BLubmuz]

I have no idea what you are talking about.:confused

WastinTime was in FE ages ago.

My post is a quote of the last words of Julius Caesar, when he saw Brutus between the
conspirators who killed him in the Roman Senate.

Do you want to remove the RNG as well?

RNG are notoriously crazy, but are the same for anyone. Adding randomness in a competition like this was decided to be avoided ages ago. More or less when huts where removed from the GotM series.

 

[Mad Professor]

RNG are notoriously crazy, but are the same for anyone. Adding randomness in a competition like this was decided to be avoided ages ago. More or less when huts where removed from the GotM series.

I hear you, but this is my point exactly - the RNG is NOT the same for everyone. Gypsy misfits and Plastic Ducks in their two different games could have the same battle for the same city in the same turn of the game with the same units, and one could capture it, and the other not, purely thanks to the RNG.

Some things we can't control and I guess you're saying we should control as much as possible - I understand you. As for me, I'm a little more relaxed about that since the game has enough luck already, I'm resigned to luck being a part of the game.

 

[WastinTime]

As my former teamate might point out... the way to counter the devastating effects of a single random event is to increase the number of such random events.

I'm going to use that argument in the future. Whom would I be quoting?

I'll probably just flip a coin... consider that your first random event in this competetion.

I actually did laugh out loud. Thx for that.
So I assume you will flip a coin for each team so some will play with 'complete kills' and some won't.

 

[Deckhand]

so I've finally put together our team. we'll be team BadCiv. ...

p.s. most of our team have new accounts, and thus have not cleared the post limit for having a custom avatar. is there any way we could get that waived for these guys? it would really help our organization...

Someone else will have to answer that.
But I can tell you that participating in SGOTM is a great way to increase your post count.

Have Fun!

 

[kcd_swede]

I'm going to use that argument in the future. Whom would I be quoting?



I actually did laugh out loud. Thx for that.
So I assume you will flip a coin for each team so some will play with 'complete kills' and some won't.

The (fmr) teammate with the wisdom is Yamps.

Well... if you want a handicapping system, we could start each team +5 gold for each turn behind the Gold Laurels that they finished.

... and now for the next tempest in the teapot:

Spoiler :

"New Random Seed on Reload" will be active as it was in sgotm17, because it makes life a little more comfortable for game admin and players didn't even notice a difference. Please try to play the later game on stable computers because multiple crashes in a short period could look more suspicious than usual if important RNG things are going on. <will add this to game description>

 

[LowtherCastle]

@Blubmuz: A little-talked-about RNG factor that can have major implications is AI tech choice. The Plastic Ducks strategy in SG17 was totally, completely, and entirely based on Mansa teching Code of Laws when he did, which he did. Now, PD made some in-game adjustments to attempt to manipulate Mansa into researching IW before CoL but those adjustments were at best prayers because the code for how an AI chooses techs is so multi-variate and there is a huge RNG factor.

Furthermore, PD had uber-good luck in that Mansa's score dropped below the mid-point for one turn at just the right moment to give PD a +1 "underdogs" plusmod with Mansa, without which Annoyed Mansa would have refused to trade CoL.

In short, the Motherland unhappiness, fairly late in the game, that you're talking about is peanuts compared to all sorts of other RNG factors that CIV is (thankfully) loaded with. WIth all due respect, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill primarily because you're not aware of all the other RNG that's happening under our noses.

If anything, you could be praising kcd for No Barbarians, because that removed a major RNG factor for this game.

 

[RagingHordes]

I agree with Yamps and with BLubMuz's intention. If a random event happens tens-hundreds of time per game, the randomness "evens out" (variance decreases).
If you have an isolated event with high risk, high reward, it will just turn the competition into a coin toss/die roll.
Attempting to kill an AI and succeeding/failing, seems to fall under the latter category.

 

[Ronnie1]

Please leave the settings as originally described and intended. I believe the scenario was/is very well thought out to give a wide array of obstacles. The off chance that some future AI gets killed off, but has a spy running around: thus messing with the finish date for which victory condition???, seems much ado about nothing imo.

 

[Deckhand]

i see. ok. on an unrelated question, is there a link to a save we can try out to make sure the buffy mod works correctly? i tried downloading a few of the saves i saw linked in other sgotm threads but i got a permission denied error.

Download one of the BOTM saves.
Maybe even play the current BOTM without reloading and submit it. http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/index.php?month=70068
Or an older one, since you can't submit it, you would be free to reload and play around. e.g. http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/index.php?month=70067

 

[BLubmuz]

@Blubmuz:
In short, the Motherland unhappiness, fairly late in the game, that you're talking about is peanuts compared to all sorts of other RNG factors that CIV is (thankfully) loaded with. WIth all due respect, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill primarily because you're not aware of all the other RNG that's happening under our noses.

If anything, you could be praising kcd for No Barbarians, because that removed a major RNG factor for this game.

We live any game with the RNG you're mentioning and it's probably why we like this game. I'm well aware of all the events tied to RNG, from fights to techs to attitudes, anything. But i see unnecessary add even more. Under this philosophy, why not restore Random Events? Fact is that a negative event in the early turns have far more impact then a posive event in the mid-late game. If team A has its first and only pasture destroyed just after build it and then a whole bunch of positive events, i doubt they will have an advantage compared to team B which has only a couple positive events and a pasture destroyed on turn 100. It's why this community decided to ban events and huts from this competition.

We have enough out of our control with all the RNG to have to worry about more factors.

 

[Ronnie1]

Welcome BadCiv!

Great to see a new team, play well.

 

[WastinTime]

+1 for BLubmuz's suggestion for restoring Random events...not this SG, but occasionally... for fun.

Even in his argument against events, he used the "devastating"(sarcasm) pasture destruction event.
That would have little effect on the finish date. How is that worse than an animal killing my starting warrior? Teams will adapt and recover.

 

[LowtherCastle]

why not restore Random Events?

Like I said at the beginning, remove RNG that can have a major impact. Require Complete Kills in a non-Conquest game is at worst minor impact and even that is highly unlikely.

I've won and lost gold by a turn or three. Do you think I would want this in there if I thought it were major?

 

[Gumbolt]

You just need one random barb uprising and it could kill off a teams game. Random events are just that. Sometimes they are trivial and pointless other times you get continual revolts or quests that suddenly give you 5-6 swords.

Of course the teams that understand the code might be able to use it to trigger certain events. If the point is to test the teams manipulation of events then maybe it serves some purpose. Again a lot could come down to RNG over actual planning. Of course just because you fulfill the requirements for an event does it mean it will happen?