SGOTM 18 - Xteam

[Mad Professor]

We need workers asap!

Indeed. I was tossing up about whether the unit at Pig City should be worker or settler but went for settler because of the urgency to claim land to the west before Joao got it, but it seems the selection is already reduced. We might find a workable spot there...?

Let's trade for Monarchy.

It would be lovely to have it but unfortunately it's the same size as Alphabet and Aesthetics that we have for trade and there's no way an Immortal AI is going to give us an even deal!

Let's prepare for war, we need Joao's land.

Indeed. While we're building several workers we also need to build an army. Um. But seriously we do!

Joao might not be gunning for us, but I'm fairly sure Dr. Evil will be, and he has open borders with Joao.

Perhaps we could build a worker or two, and produce an axe or two while we're getting that iron within our borders and teching to construction. Then could come some swords and cats, hopefully uninterrupted by war elephants coming over the pass in the mountains. Would it be worthwhile to park a spear on the wooded hill in that pass? (We'd have to build the spear first). It would have to be accompanied by an axe of course. That still leaves the question of access to New York though...

 

[The-Hawk]

Good job MP.

:The-Hawk - UP

I am going to be out of pocket much of tomorrow, but the next few weekends won't be much better.

I'll see if I can squeeze in a short turn in the next few days. Looks like we have lots to discuss.

 

[The-Hawk]

Yes, I think we need to go to war, we've pretty much run out of REX sites and we have too many potential enemies surrounding us. I think my turnset will be pretty focused on building an army and praying we are not sucker punched. The religious/diplo situation has certainly taken a turn for the worse with Khan going for Christianity. He is going to be a threat unless we get out of Judaism.

I'm at a loss as far as where to settle with the settler in Pig City. I see 5 options, none are great:

1) South of Lisbon, the site with 2 cows, 1 pig and iron.

+: clearly the most powerful site we can potentially settle
-: probably already settled by Joao: close to Evil, so it will be a magnet: if we DOW on Portugal it will lose trade routes with out capital until we capture a city or two, big maintenance

2) Way North, site with iron, wheat, and fur. Can't be on river to get all 3.

+: good production
-: near Khan, but spread from our other northern city, will need armies in each to defend: big maintenance: no fresh water

3) NE of Lisbon, capture 3 cows. Can't be on river to get all 3.

+: Good prod site with 3 cows.
-: no fresh water

4) E of Lisbon on river, capture 2 cows.

+: fresh water, maintenance is not too bad
-: so-so prod site

5) 1 W of Stone (South of Pig City). Can work stone and a mined plain hill.

+: very low maintenance, can get a couple of gold from water tiles
-: pretty crappy city

Questions for the team:

1) Do we revert out of Judaism to try to keep Kahn off our backs? Or can we gift him more techs to keep him neutral?

2) Where do we settle next? (Frankly, I am leaning to the stone site, unless the site S of Lisbon is available. It is a pretty crappy site, but maint will be low and it can build units.)

MP, I assume the galley being built is intended to sit on our nets with the other?

 

[Mad Professor]

MP, I assume the galley being built is intended to sit on our nets with the other?

I am uncertain of the original intent. It had hammers in it already when I started my turnset and it paused while we built a couple of axes and a lighthouse in Fish city and now needs to be produced or decay soon.

I think the original intention was better defense against intrusions from the south and to have the start of an assault force to take Members Only which is after all, a very nice city! Goldmember however is starting to fade into less significance for us on the military front in the short term I suspect...

 

[leif erikson]

There is another option. Perhaps we should consider attacking Genghis? His area is out of the way a bit, we have better relations with our surrounding civs and he seems the biggest threat.

Would really like to see his land, we should recon it while we have OB.

I do not see a good city site, except the one to the north with Iron, Wheat and Fur. Certainly close to Genghis too.

 

[Mad Professor]

There is another option. Perhaps we should consider attacking Genghis? His area is out of the way a bit, we have better relations with our surrounding civs and he seems the biggest threat.

In the long term you are right Leif, but in the short term? I don't know - both Joao and Dr. Evil could be lining us up.

Would really like to see his land, we should recon it while we have OB.

There is a warrior on the border who could swap from watching the railway line to exploring Mongolia.

I do not see a good city site, except the one to the north with Iron, Wheat and Fur. Certainly close to Genghis too.

It's hard to know what Joao has already taken to our west. I wish we could see that. There might be still a decent spot there... We can't afford the worker turns off to have the worker explore the area unfortunately otherwise I'd be really tempted to send the worker on a sightseeing tour.

 

[zamint3]

Questions for the team:

1) Do we revert out of Judaism to try to keep Kahn off our backs? Or can we gift him more techs to keep him neutral?

2) Where do we settle next? (Frankly, I am leaning to the stone site, unless the site S of Lisbon is available. It is a pretty crappy site, but maint will be low and it can build units.)

1) Kahn does not have the Christian holy city, so we'll only ever get -1 for different religion, that's not so bad.

We can bribe Kahn into war with Gandhi, that would keep him busy for a while.
Mansa will do the same and we could dogpile and get some shared war diplo points.
If Joao goes for Gandhi we should be ready to backstab him.

If we go for Diplo vc someone should rethink this.

2) I'd go for the 3 cows, with spices and dye


I just noticed that everyone except Dr. Evil is at war with Goldmember, and apparently can make peace with him I don't suppose the raised fist means that Joao is going after Goldmember

Trade Alpha+Litt for Monarchy+Meditation with Gandhi. There's no reason to keep Gandhi backwards.

 

[Mad Professor]

1)I don't suppose the raised fist means that Joao is going after Goldmember

Nope. One turn the fist wasn't there, next turn it was. He started thinking about war. I noticed he dislikes Gandhi more than us, but we're still a possible target.

Trade Alpha+Litt for Monarchy+Meditation with Gandhi. There's no reason to keep Gandhi backwards.

This would work, but I wonder how much that endangers our own shot at the GL? We've only just started it and if Gandhi is sitting on a production giant over there in the west (which generally tends to have lots of hills on a great plains map) or he gets a GE (Great people are popping up so early because of various wonders spread around the map) then we could get an unpleasant surprise...

 

[leif erikson]

1) Kahn does not have the Christian holy city, so we'll only ever get -1 for different religion, that's not so bad.

We can bribe Kahn into war with Gandhi, that would keep him busy for a while.
Mansa will do the same and we could dogpile and get some shared war diplo points.
If Joao goes for Gandhi we should be ready to backstab him.

If we go for Diplo vc someone should rethink this.

The short answer to all of this is that we need to raise an army, soon.

2) I'd go for the 3 cows, with spices and dye

Sounds OK to me.

Trade Alpha+Litt for Monarchy+Meditation with Gandhi. There's no reason to keep Gandhi backwards.

Same concern as MP, completion of the GLibrary. Perhaps in a few more turns?

edit - I wonder if there is a sea route to Evil going WSW, should probably check this out sometime soon to make sure we do not get an unpleasant surprise?

 

[The-Hawk]

There is another option. Perhaps we should consider attacking Genghis? His area is out of the way a bit, we have better relations with our surrounding civs and he seems the biggest threat.

This makes sense on a lot of levels. Most important, it would eliminate one front that we need to defend.

I'd go for the 3 cows, with spices and dye

I don't think this city is viable. To get spices and dyes, the city needs to be off the river. It would have 14 jungles, so -5 from jungles. Therefore, after the first, each pop will require 3 food. I believe it will stagnate at pop 3 until we clear jungles (and it will take a long time to reach 3). With all the other tasks for our workers, seems like that will be a long time away. Also, one of the cows is on a desert, so not all that good a tile. I think a better 3 cow site is 4NE of Lisbon.

I just noticed that everyone except Dr. Evil is at war with Goldmember, and apparently can make peace with him I don't suppose the raised fist means that Joao is going after Goldmember

Where do you see this? Shouldn't we be getting "common war" diplo bonuses?

The diplo situation is really snarled. We need two AI's to vote for us if we go diplo. The best candidates are Joao and Mansa (very unlikely they will be worst enemies). If we attack Joao, then we will need either Gandhi or Kahn. This means we can't allow Mansa and Gandhi to become worst enemies or we will get negative modifiers for trade. I'm thinking that if we go to war with Kahn, we should try to bribe Mansa in to make them enemies.

 

[zamint3]

I don't think this city is viable. To get spices and dyes, the city needs to be off the river. It would have 14 jungles, so -5 from jungles. Therefore, after the first, each pop will require 3 food. I believe it will stagnate at pop 3 until we clear jungles (and it will take a long time to reach 3). With all the other tasks for our workers, seems like that will be a long time away. Also, one of the cows is on a desert, so not all that good a tile. I think a better 3 cow site is 4NE of Lisbon.

It's not the best city location, but it's good for an attack on Joao and it connects our empire to New York. And yes it needs a dedicated worker

Jungle only means -0.25 each, so a total of -3 , and we'll have corn soon

I think 4NE of Lisbon is too far away.

Where do you see this? Shouldn't we be getting "common war" diplo bonuses?

On the trade screen, "make peace with".
I'm confused as well, Goldmember is half barb and half not

The diplo situation is really snarled.

You know I don't vote for diplo




Test save is updated:
View attachment Swinging Empire BC-1320 T67 Test save.CivBeyondSwordSave

Research is slightly behind, the settler in Pig city is slightly behind, the worker on the corn is one turn ahead.
Mansa land is one tile too far north


Edit: Did I mention that we need workers?

 

[The-Hawk]

Three more questions for the team:

1) How desperate are we to build units? Should we build out some infra first? Specifically, I am inclined to build a Lib in Fish City and a Granary in New York and in city 5 before switching over to units. Also, I assume we want a Barracks in all cities before building units. However, this means a delay in getting units started. Also some risk if Evil and/or Joao are on the warpath.

2) What religion follows Construction? I am inclined to go CoL so we can then go to CS and get Bureau in our powerful capital. This then opens a beeline to Education and Oxford.

3) I see whipping in the future for most cities. However, I am thinking we should not whip capital. In fact, I'm thinking we should run a couple of scientists as soon as we grow population so that we can get an Academy asap. Once Gr Lib is done, an Academy will be very powerful.

Here is the start of a turnset plan. For now, I'm assuming we will build the extra buildings I suggested in question 1 above.

Religion: Stay in Judaism
Civics: If we get Monarchy in a trade, will revolt to HR.
Tech: Construction -> Code of Laws
Diplo: Will give any techs demanded, will not accept any religion demands.
Trades: Will make whatever tech trades I can (will not trade Lit until after Gr Lib is completed).
New City: Axe near Washington will head for new city site. Settler will settle 1E of desert cow (this is the only tile that brings the dyes, spices, and 3 cows into BFC).
Scouting: Warrior near Khan is going to scout his lands, scout is going to scout Joao’s lands.

Workers:

• Worker near Washington will continue to build cottages.
• Worker on dyes will road to new city site. When the city is settled, he will pasture the desert cow (or should he farm a jungle tile first?).
• Worker farming corn will finish farming and roading corn, then will start a camp on the beavers. When the city borders pop, he will hook up iton.
• Worker that will be whipped in fish city will cottage fish city
• Worker to be whipped in Pig City will start chopping units.
• Worker to be whipped in New York will help that worker with the beavers and iron. Then they will chop units.

Builds:

• Washington: Gr Lib -> Barracks.
• Fish City: Galley -> worker. Whip worker for 2 into Library. Library -> Barracks.
• Pig City: Whip settler for 2 into Barracks. At pop 4, switch to worker. Whip worker for 2.
• New York: Whip Monument into granary. At pop 4, switch to worker. Whip worker for 2. Granary -> Barracks.
• New city: Monument -> granary. Granary -> Barracks.

Z3, next time you update the test, can you put some notes on the map showing it is the test game? Because I knew there were slight differences, I was bouncing back and forth between the two when I developed the plan. I don't want to risk any confusion. Come to think of it, if I remember, I'll add a note somewhere in the real game as well.

 

[leif erikson]

1) How desperate are we to build units? Should we build out some infra first? Specifically, I am inclined to build a Lib in Fish City and a Granary in New York and in city 5 before switching over to units. Also, I assume we want a Barracks in all cities before building units. However, this means a delay in getting units started. Also some risk if Evil and/or Joao are on the warpath.

Am concerned for not enough units. However, seems like a risk we need to bear?

The question is when we think we want to start .
Will that be Joao or Genghis? Suppose we should check Genghis' land first.

2) What religion follows Construction? I am inclined to go CoL so we can then go to CS and get Bureau in our powerful capital. This then opens a beeline to Education and Oxford.

Taoism with Philosophy?
I think this is sound.

May need to look at Engineering for Trebs and Machinery for XBows and Maces?
Think war is inevitable.

3) I see whipping in the future for most cities. However, I am thinking we should not whip capital. In fact, I'm thinking we should run a couple of scientists as soon as we grow population so that we can get an Academy asap. Once Gr Lib is done, an Academy will be very powerful.

Agree.

Seems like we need everything all at once.

edit - almost forgot, plan looks good. Seems we will need to whip a quick army...

 

[Htadus]

We do have a diplomatic option called Genghis. Both Mansa and Gandhi will hate him. If we war him soon, pay Gandhi(+2 max diplo) and Mansa (+3 max diplo) to join us and then leave him alive with 1 city. We can gift him the UN.

We need to adopt US for Gandhi (+6) and Free Trade for Mansa (+4). We can gift cities to both for + diplo points. UN is the fastest way to win this with 2 tech trading partners. If we can get both to get on the same religion we are golden.+6 from Mansa and +4 from Gandhi.

Just food for thought.

Some other comments:
The 2 cities of Joao: They will be between Horse, cow and south of Spice, and West of river between cow and banana.

Goldmember is a version of Sid (barb) and therefore all the AI will be at war with him by default. I do not think that is why Joao got his hands full. I think he is after Gandhi.

We need to be careful with our next city. We can not afford to split them up too much and the iron we think we secured is not really secure. Both Joao and Genghis can claim it still.

Three more questions for the team:

1) How desperate are we to build units? Should we build out some infra first? Specifically, I am inclined to build a Lib in Fish City Yes but no rax. We can build suicide cats here. 2 per city is plenty.and a Granary in New York And Raxand in city 5 before switching over to units. Also, I assume we want a Barracks in all cities before building units. However, this means a delay in getting units started. Also some risk if Evil and/or Joao are on the warpath. After the settler in the Pig City(lets whip), have it build a Rax and start several axes and spears. That would make him reconsider.

2) What religion follows Construction? I am inclined to go CoL so we can then go to CS and get Bureau in our powerful capital. This then opens a beeline to Education and Oxford. CoL is a great next tech.

3) I see whipping in the future for most cities. However, I am thinking we should not whip capital. In fact, I'm thinking we should run a couple of scientists as soon as we grow population so that we can get an Academy asap. Once Gr Lib is done, an Academy will be very powerful. Agree

Here is the start of a turnset plan. For now, I'm assuming we will build the extra buildings I suggested in question 1 above.

Religion: Stay in Judaism
Civics: If we get Monarchy in a trade, will revolt to HR.
Tech: Construction -> Code of Laws
Diplo: Will give any techs demanded, will not accept any religion demands. No comments
Trades: Will make whatever tech trades I can (will not trade Lit until after Gr Lib is completed).
New City: Axe near Washington will head for new city site. Settler will settle 1E of desert cow (this is the only tile that brings the dyes, spices, and 3 cows into BFC).
Scouting: Warrior near Khan is going to scout his lands, scout is going to scout Joao’s lands. Yay. Great.

Workers:

• Worker near Washington will continue to build cottages.
• Worker on dyes will road to new city site. When the city is settled, he will pasture the desert cow (or should he farm a jungle tile first?). Lets discuss the city placement
• Worker farming corn will finish farming and roading corn, then will start a camp on the beavers. When the city borders pop, he will hook up iton.
• Worker that will be whipped in fish city will cottage fish city Great
• Worker to be whipped in Pig City will start chopping units. This city need to go into unit production soon.
• Worker to be whipped in New York will help that worker with the beavers and iron. Then they will chop units.Do we really need this many workers?

Builds:

• Washington: Gr Lib -> Barracks.
• Fish City: Galley -> worker. Whip worker for 2 into Library. Library -> Barracks.By this time the war should be over.
• Pig City: Whip settler for 2 into Barracks. At pop 4, switch to worker. Whip worker for 2.
• New York: Whip Monument into granary. Whip it the moment we get pop 2, that way we get the access to iron that much sooner. At pop 4, switch to worker. Whip worker for 2. Granary -> Barracks. Are all the workers need? How many worker turns are foreseen at this time?
• New city: Monument -> granary. Granary -> Barracks.

Z3, next time you update the test, can you put some notes on the map showing it is the test game? Because I knew there were slight differences, I was bouncing back and forth between the two when I developed the plan. I don't want to risk any confusion. Come to think of it, if I remember, I'll add a note somewhere in the real game as well.

Comment on next city:
If we think we may get DoWed by Joao or that he may join against us in a war with Genghis if we DoE Genghis, then we need to be able to defend our cities from the AI units. That is a given.

It is easy for us to defend our core with about 2-3 units on that forest access point. We should consider not chopping that forest until we get the situation stable. If we go to war with Genghis, then one of our attack forces should come from the RR to east. That will secure both sides.

However if we divide our 2 cities outside of the Great Stone Walls, then we are going to be stretched thin. I would recommend that we chose a city, either immediately out side of west opening or closer to the existing iron city on a grass hill 4W of New York. This way we secure Iron for good and can move units between to protect both cities.

 

[zamint3]

I'll be travelling to Rome (no skiing ) for the next 6 days, I'll probably have very little time to spend on the internet, good luck!

 

[Mad Professor]

1) How desperate are we to build units? Should we build out some infra first? Specifically, I am inclined to build a Lib in Fish City and a Granary in New York and in city 5 before switching over to units. Also, I assume we want a Barracks in all cities before building units. However, this means a delay in getting units started. Also some risk if Evil and/or Joao are on the warpath.

Is it possible to hedge risks a bit by builoding a unit or two before the infrastructure?

2) What religion follows Construction? I am inclined to go CoL so we can then go to CS and get Bureau in our powerful capital. This then opens a beeline to Education and Oxford.

I think we have no chance of beating Mansa and/or Gandhi to CoL and only a very small chance of beating both of them to philosophy. I wouldn't be enthusiastic about a religion hunt. Yes, Civil Service would be very handy, but we're going to need the military power of construction long before we reach Civil Service in my opinion.

3) I see whipping in the future for most cities. However, I am thinking we should not whip capital. In fact, I'm thinking we should run a couple of scientists as soon as we grow population so that we can get an Academy asap. Once Gr Lib is done, an Academy will be very powerful.

I agree. The only reason I'd whip Washington was if I thought I'd lose the race to the GL otherwise.

 

[leif erikson]

Comment on next city:
If we think we may get DoWed by Joao or that he may join against us in a war with Genghis if we DoE Genghis, then we need to be able to defend our cities from the AI units. That is a given.

It is easy for us to defend our core with about 2-3 units on that forest access point. We should consider not chopping that forest until we get the situation stable. If we go to war with Genghis, then one of our attack forces should come from the RR to east. That will secure both sides.

However if we divide our 2 cities outside of the Great Stone Walls, then we are going to be stretched thin. I would recommend that we chose a city, either immediately out side of west opening or closer to the existing iron city on a grass hill 4W of New York. This way we secure Iron for good and can move units between to protect both cities.

Think this is a good point, can we find a decent city site that supports our movement out of our enclave and also protect the Iron site? That would be a good thing.

edit - have a fun and safe trip Z3. No snow bunnies?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sorry to be contributing so little. I'm slammed.

"However if we divide our 2 cities outside of the Great Stone Walls, then we are going to be stretched thin. I would recommend that we chose a city, either immediately out side of west opening or closer to the existing iron city on a grass hill 4W of New York. This way we secure Iron for good and can move units between to protect both cities." Concur. There is just no good city site. Lesser evil is perhaps 2W of iron, with that city having forests to chop and eventually working farmed grass, iron, beaver camp, and mined hills.

 

[The-Hawk]

Updated plan. Two major changes:

- City 5 to be founded 2W of iron. I think this is better than 4W of New York because it saves the hill for a mine.
- Seems to be concern that we need a couple of early units to guard against Evil. Also a question about whether we need 3 more workers. Therefore, I am replacing the worker I planned in Pig City with units. After we get a few units up in key defensive spots, we can decide if we need the extra worker or not.

One more question: In the previous plan, I had the new city building a monument, then granary, then rax. Given the lack of food (and therefore whipping), I am wondering if we should skip the monument and hope for a religion. The only impact is inability to work the beavers. Given the main purpose of the city is building units, it will be a while before we can work the beavers anyhow.

==============

Religion: Stay in Judaism
Civics: If we get Monarchy in a trade, will revolt to HR.
Tech: Construction -> Code of Laws
Diplo: Will give any techs demanded, will not accept any religion demands.
Trades: Will make whatever tech trades I can (will not trade Lit until after Gr Lib is completed).
New City: Axe near Washington will head for new city site. Settler will settle 2W of the iron to the North.
Scouting: Warrior near Khan is going to scout his lands, scout is going to scout Joao’s lands.

Workers:
Worker near Washington will continue to build cottages.
Worker on dyes will build roads to connect the new city with NY to promote unit movement. When the city is settled, he will farm a river tile.
Worker farming corn will finish farming and roading corn, then will start a camp on the beavers. When the city borders pop, he will hook up iton.
Worker that will be whipped in fish city will cottage fish city
Worker to be whipped in New York will help that worker with the beavers and iron, then both will help build out city 5 which is now next door. Then they will all chop units.

Builds:
Washington: Gr Lib -> Barracks.
Fish City: Galley -> worker. Whip worker for 2 into Library. Library -> suicide cats.
Pig City: Whip settler for 2 into Barracks. Rax -> Spear -> Spear -> Axe. First spear will sit on the hill NW of pig city in case Evil’s Jumbo shows up. Next will follow the axe to city 5. Then the new axe will sit with the spear NW of pig city. At this point, I will take a look at the worker situation and decide if we want to slot another in.
New York: Whip Monument into granary as soon as possible. At pop 4, switch to worker. Whip worker for 2. Granary -> Barracks.
New city: Granary -> Barracks.

 

[Htadus]

I am good with no monument in new city. Granary and Rax is great.