SGOTM 19 - The Shawshank Redemption

[ZPV]

@PPP:
Rice City? I'm happy enough with it. There's no need to heavily prioritise hammer tiles for the worker in Trumpster (e.g. t29 FPH could instead be silk for the extra coin, but I'm sure you'd notice that.)

I'm not itching to keep Asoka alive, but am not quite ready to go into all-out unit mode. It takes up a little too much of our resources. The next player can spam axemen

I am happy enough for you to play when you're ready.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Gifting a City to Asoka does not have to happen if we rush. It's that simple. If we aren't going to rush now, then when are we going to go to war and with what units? Let's agree upon that point before we play. I want us to have a clear idea of how we're going to be doing our warring.


Math. Show me one test run where we are Chopping on Turn 40 and where we plan to follow that test run. There isn't one and even if there were, it's not in the PPP. There's no need to Chop that early. But, we could certainly be Chopping 2 Forests on Turn 42, as per the micro in Message 972. WastinTime has shown with a peaceful approach that we'll need Gold for Civil Service, so 2 turns at a 0% Science Rate is only going to be portion of the Gold that we'll need. If we're going to get our Great Scientist anyway and if the AIs are teching like molasses, there is no need to rush to Math by Turn 40. That fact means that we can front-load some additional earning of Food + Hammers right now, when those Food and Hammers will have a multiplicative positive effect on the game.


If we're at the point where people don't want to rush, fine. But that doesn't invalidate the existing micro options.

Let's make sure that they are properly compared. Slow-building Workers and Settlers is inefficient in a high-Food City. It's not just about an Unhappy face but what we are doing because we have that Unhappy face... stagnating growth in a Granary City... which sucks. It is very likely that we come out far ahead by not doing so. Take for example the micro in Message 972.

Other than the build items in Late Mega (either an Archer or a Monument could be built there instead) and the starting of an Axe in Trumpster on Turn 34, there wouldn't be much to change for a peaceful approach. Let's compare where we're at in terms of our empires on Turn 35 with the PPP micro versus this micro. I'll attach a Turn 35 saved game to this message, which is the turn before whipping any Military Units. Let me know if you want to see a saved game from a different turn.


@ZPV
Can you explain that formula a little better? Specifically, how do those numbers 30 and 10 relate to "normal trading" evaluation (trading with the AI itself himself/herself, instead of his/her Worst Enemy)?

Like, if you gift 100 Gold to AI 1 and gift 300 Gold to AI 2, where AI 2 is AI 1's Worst Enemy, how much positive and negative will you see from AI 1? Like, presumably, it will be 300/10 for the gift to AI 2, but what relative scaling factor do we see for the gift to AI 1 from AI 1 himself/herself? Is it the equivalent of dividing by 1, so would be +100 and -300/10 = -30? Or, would the 100 be divided by a number similar to 10?

 

[ZPV]

@ZPV
Can you explain that formula a little better? Specifically, how do those numbers 30 and 10 relate to "normal trading" evaluation (trading with the AI itself himself/herself, instead of his/her Worst Enemy)?

Like, if you gift 100 Gold to AI 1 and gift 300 Gold to AI 2, where AI 2 is AI 1's Worst Enemy, how much positive and negative will you see from AI 1? Like, presumably, it will be 300/10 for the gift to AI 2, but what relative scaling factor do we see for the gift to AI 1 from AI 1 himself/herself? Is it the equivalent of dividing by 1, so would be +100 and -300/10 = -30? Or, would the 100 be divided by a number similar to 10?

For "fair and forthright trading", it's net trade value/5, also divided by the number of turns we've known them.

 

[WastinTime]

@PPP:
Rice City? I'm happy enough with it. There's no need to heavily prioritise hammer tiles for the worker in Trumpster (e.g. t29 FPH could instead be silk for the extra coin, but I'm sure you'd notice that.)

Yep, I was actually working the FP in my test (LM didn't need it), but I didn't change the PPP

 

[Dhoomstriker]

EDIT: I just don't like it. We are whipping away great tiles. Trumpster can whip later. Closer to when the scientists are fired. As it is, we will whip again before anger wears off. Re-growing Trumpster now will not only delay Math, but also slow down LateMega cus it has to give up corn.

Let's see where we're at Food, Hammer, and Flask-wise on Turn 35 with the PPP approach versus the whipped Worker 2 approach. We also gain several extra Worker turns by getting the Worker out earlier.

RE: Math
"I don't want to delay it" isn't in itself a justified reason. Other reasons could be valid, but these ones are not:
- Not for Chops (we aren't Chopping that soon)
- Not for Civil Service as the Civil Service end date won't be any faster (we need some turns at a 100% Gold with our Slider either now or later, at least with a peaceful approach... maybe not with warmongering, but probably there, too)
- Not for trading with slow-teching AIs

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Okay, so a Worst Enemy trade or gift is valued at half of what you will get in Fair and Forthright Trading.

What do the numbers that are being divided represent? Gold pieces? Flasks? Some other measurement?

Do we have any clue what a gift City's value is worth? Probably quite a lot, given how AIs rarely give them up. So, half of "quite a lot" is still likely "a lot."

 

[WastinTime]

- Not for Civil Service as the Civil Service end date won't be any faster (we need some turns at a 100% Gold with our Slider either now or later, at least with a peaceful approach... maybe not with warmongering, but probably there, too)

Not true. We are going to war before we get CS. So rush or no rush, we will get a cash injection and will likely make it to CS without lowering the slider (if we want to...we may choose later not to.

Anyway, the big difference I see is:
Your plan: 314 beakers
PPP: 350 beakers.

 

[WastinTime]

Let's make sure that they are properly compared. Slow-building Workers and Settlers is inefficient in a high-Food City.

LM is not slow-building.
Trumpster is...and it has +1 food so it's not wasting the power of food.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Note: My earlier thought about gifting a city and getting it back after 4 turns only appears to work if the AI himself settled the city. Otherwise, it follows the standard revolt protocol and is a function of RNG. Not so good.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Do we have any clue what a gift City's value is worth? Probably quite a lot, given how AIs rarely give them up. So, half of "quite a lot" is still likely "a lot."

Come on, Dhoom...

Awesome. Never seen that before, iirc.

How is tech value determined? What is a gifted city value?

Tech value is his beaker cost * something between 1.5 and 2, depending on how much of a monopoly it is.

Cities typically have a large value.
300 + 50*pop + 200*culture level + (200*pop + 400 + elapsed turns)*our culture percentage
Add some extras for resources.
Then *1.5 if they've never owned it.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

What about the Food totals, Hammer totals, and improvements from Workers?

You are the only one with access to both saved games, unless I missed seeing a posted saved game that shows us the results of where the PPP takes us.

Of course we're behind on Flasks because we delay when we hire the 2 Scientists... but in the peacefully-played approaches, we ended up firing the 2 Scientists after Math is in, while with the micro options that I presented, we front-loaded our whipping so we didn't need to fire the Scientists later to make use of our Whipping Unhappiness. Overall, we'll catch up and push ahead in terms of Flasks by having more turns of Scientists hired in total.


On what turn are you learning Code of Laws as per the PPP? It was coming in on Turn 40 consistently for every micro option that I presented. Are you learning it sooner? If yes, then aren't we going to need to run a Science Slider not at 100% in your approach, too? Or, was the Fast-Worker-2 approach somehow catching up on Flasks between Turns 35 and 40?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

@LC: Are you perhaps suggesting that we gift Settlers to an AI so that the AI will settle Cities that will be close enough to our empire for the AI to consider Liberating said Cities to us?

For example, let's say that we gifted a City to a far-away AI like Napoleon, and then gifted him a Settler or two inside of that City's Cultural Borders (and maybe even a couple of gifted Archers/Warriors?). Then, we wait for Napoleon to settle nearby Cities and somehow decide to gift (Liberate) them to us, due to the Cities being so far away from his homeland?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Trumpster is...and it has +1 food so it's not wasting the power of food.

Whether we are wasting the power of Food or not depends upon other factors... do we have Happiness room? Do we have other squares that we could be working?

It has been shown that a G Farm (FP equivalent) beats a PH Mine (Marble equivalent when stagnating growth) in a City with a Granary and enough Happiness to whip again.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Tech value is his beaker cost * something between 1.5 and 2, depending on how much of a monopoly it is.

Cities typically have a large value.
300 + 50*pop + 200*culture level + (200*pop + 400 + elapsed turns)*our culture percentage
Add some extras for resources.
Then *1.5 if they've never owned it.

Do we know how a tech value relates to the cost in Flasks that we see on the F6 screen? Is it just a straight-up division factor for Immortal level?

What represents the Culture Level? Is it "1" for every total Culture (from any Civ) in a City?

Elapsed turns is from when the City has been founded or from when the current owner last took possession of the City?


One other important point... if you gift a City, it can never Culture Flip back to you without another player first taking ownership of the City.

 

[WastinTime]

As you can imagine, whipping a few turns sooner will give you a temporary boost in hammers (some lost to the fact that you don't work all the good tiles), but it comes out about the same in the long run. You're ahead several worker turns, you will come out a couple food/hammers behind in the long run, your settler is behind 2 turns, your bpt rate is lower and will continue to be lower for the next 50 turns+.

 

[WastinTime]

One other important point... if you gift a City, it can never Culture Flip back to you without another player first taking ownership of the City.

Hmmm.. IIRC, in the Toku* SG we gifted a TrojanHorse city and it flipped back several times.

And it was fast too.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

There are two Game Settings related to City Flipping. It is very likely that one of those settings was altered for the SGOTM that you are talking about, given what you are describing. Another possibility is a 3rd party owning the City before you got it back.

I'm still waiting to see Food and Hammer totals or else a saved game that represents the PPP on Turn 35 so that I can tally them myself.

I'd also like an answer on what those extra Flasks do for us... do we simply get to Code of Laws too early, such as on Turn 39? If we aren't getting Code of Laws earlier, what happens such that the difference in Flasks still results in a Turn 40 Code of Laws?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Axe
Reveal the Lake and get into position for the settler/worker travel to goldsite
Clear the way for RiceCity

...

T33 Settler (1 angry); FP; Copper; Silk

If we're going to settle a Rice City (have we decided where? If not, can we leave that decision until the next turnset?) instead of a Gold City, then regardless of where we settle Rice City, we can afford to have our Axeman inside of Late Megacity on this turn, to avoid the Unhappiness due to not having a Military Police unit, then have the Axeman march north-westward on the turn where we whip the Settler.

I'm confused as to how far the PPP is going to be played... it seems that on Turn 36, we might want to have our Workers doing something else, so it might be good not to perform those Worker actions. The PPP title lists up to T35, but Worker 2's actions list up to T40... are Worker 2's actions listed just to give us an idea of what you think our Workers would be doing next or do you plan to play out until Turn 40?

 

[WastinTime]

The PPP title lists up to T35, but Worker 2's actions list up to T40... are Worker 2's actions listed just to give us an idea of what you think our Workers would be doing next or do you plan to play out until Turn 40?

Correct. I just like to give an idea of what they're intentions are for the next TS. To show, for example, that they arrive at the Rice on time. I always stop on the final turn in the title (T35), and I never move any units or do worker actions unless specifically noted.

I've also never played a 10 turn session without stopping for some sort of discussion. So there is still time to debate the barracks for example.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Open Borders
As for Open Borders... I guess that other than Closing Borders with Asoka, we're going to keep Borders Closed for now? If yes, at least that way we won't anger anyone and will have a chance to see who hates whom.

With 3/4 AIs running different Religions from each other, there may be some AI-AI hatred showing up beyond the "we hate Asoka" stuff. If it is "everyone hates Asoka," then the Diplo will be a little bit too easy.

I think that the following values can go +1 for same or -1 for different if the AI who is judging the other player owns the Holy City of their State Religion:
Leader, iSameReligionLimit, iDifferentReligion
Alexander, +4, -1
Asoka, +7, 0
Napoleon, +4, 0
Toku, +3, -1