SGOTM 21 - Xteam

That was almost my micro as well. But I think I moved to the plain river forest earlier.
If your method produces a better result, please list it out.


Did notice that chopping the forest N of fur gives us the GLH 2 turns earlier in case that changes anyones mind.
For me, getting Fur City to have its Granary be 1-pop-whippable and to be able to work a free Cottage on behalf of our capital is too strong.

I don't see how it's possibly 2-turns faster, though... we will finish TGLH at the end of T64 T65 (EDIT: I remembered incorrectly), but our last mainland Chop goes in on T63. Plus, we'll have 200 Hammers, and a difference of 30 - 16 = 14 Hammers would only mean a difference of 1 turn.


I'm not concerned about the date of TGLH. The date for The Oracle is about as late as I dare push it; if there was a way to speed it up, I'd probably be for it...

Getting Worker 4 out of City 3 at Size 3 doesn't help, as the soonest that we could 1-pop-whip the Worker would have it being ready to move on T70 (growth to Size 3 on T64, 8 H per turn for 4 turns, whip on T68, able to move on the T69).

Growing to Size 4 gives a slower Worker there (grow on T67, build the Worker on T68, whip on T69, able to move on T70).

We'd have to play out both scenarios to T70 and compare total F + H + C to see which is better, and also factor in the extra Worker turn to see if it helps or not.


We COULD start to build a Worker in City 3 now and then 1-pop-whip it (Worker gets whipped on T63 and can move on T64), but doing so totally messes up our efficient Granary, and also being at Size 1 for that City would hurt a lot, so doing so would come at a very high cost (do you work a Gems Mine for 1 F per turn and hardly grow? Or, do you stop working the Gems Mine for several turns?).

The problem with stopping to work a Gems Mine is that we might delay Code of Laws, so, while we might say that "Civil Service's Flasks are worth more than the lost Commerce," we might not be able to speed up Oracling Civil Service if we stop working a Gems Mine for too long.


City 4 will grow to Size 2 on T69. If we then whipped a Warrior, we'd get the Warrior on T70 and the Hammers would overflow on T71.

In order to get the City to grow 1 turn sooner, we have to trade 2 turns of working a Gems Mine for 2 turns of working the G Corn. But, that would mean 4 turns of not working the Gems Mine to get the Hammers to overflow on T69, and that loss of Commerce would probably delay Code of Laws too much (but, it might work, although it would be tight).

That said, there may be an opportunity here... the G Corn takes 5 turns to Farm. I can't see how, though, as it takes a turn to move to the G Corn, so we'd probably lose 2 Forest Chops just to get it Farmed in time for usage. Plus, we'd still have to work it for 2 turns just to speed up the whipping action.

So, forget about Farming the G Corn earlier.


What about Worker 3?

T58 move to the P Riv For that is 3E of G Corn
T59 pChop for 1 turn
T60 Move into City 4, move 1S G Riv Road, move 1SE G Farm
T61 Move 1SE P, 1SE into the Galley (2E of Gems City)
T62 Unload on the eastern G For
T63 - T65 Chop the eastern G For

So, this approach might be the answer, allowing the last 2 Forest Chops at City 4 to come in on T69, giving us The Oracle one turn sooner.

The tradeoff is going back to our original TGLH date of T65. The nice part about delaying TGLH by 1 turn intentionally is that Cap's micro can work the 5-Food Lighthoused-Crab more instead of working the Unimproved Fur, and we won't need to work a G For square in Cap, either, so we would end up speeding up the date of getting Settler 5 by having had more Food in Cap.


We should probably target that approach, then... T69 Oracle, T65 TGLH, but a better-looking Cap as a result, very likely giving us a sooner Settler 5, which will earn us back some, if not all of the missing Commerce from the delay in TGLH.


So, we should probably nail down the micro out to completing The Oracle on T69 and TGLH on T65, so that we can sure that our PPP reflects exactly what we'll need to do now to make it happen.


EDIT: It seems that I remembered incorrectly and we were already targeting TGLH on T65, so there will be no delay in completing TGLH by having Worker 3 help to speed up The Oracle by 1 turn.
 
True, if we can get the col on turn 69 we should go for tjat but it does not look East. But i think the real question is if it is à Hood idea at all to try for a late oracle with à Warhol coming sponsorer.
 
As for war... a faster tech pace can get us to the techs that we will want that much faster, so I see no conflict there.

Archers + Cats are a surprisingly strong defensive combo.

You can defend well with 3-Strength, heavily-Fortified and good-defensive-in-Cities-and-on-Hills Archers, you can defend with 5-Strength units otherwise (say in the case where your new Archer hasn't built up a Fortification bonus yet), and you can siege-attack their stack if it's a big stack.

A faster tech pace from Civil Service will help us to get Currency + Construction, particularly after our Great Scientist #2 arrives.

We only really need 6 hints, anyway... Liz 1, Liz 2, Isa 1, Isa 2, Cathy 1, and Cathy 2. The last hint for everyone is meant to be "if you can't accomplish the earlier ones, it can be accomplished no matter what, but late in the game." So, we can just find out that info much later.


We could also hope that Shaka Demands a tech from us, which will improve our relations with him and buy us 10 turns of Peace. An AI can sometimes get in the way of its own war declaration that way. ;)


Besides, we only need to survive long enough to get more War Success than Shaka (which isn't hard against an AI with high attack courage who will make stupid attacks), then we can bribe him with a tech or two to go away.


I'm really not concerned about Shaka at all.


EDIT: I remembered incorrectly and we were already targeting TGLH at the end of T65 in the very best case. So, Worker 3 Chopping the eastern G For on T65 won't actually delay TGLH at all...

which means that the original micro won't have to be updated much.
 
I doubt we will have time to get Catapults before the war. I'm quite scared. I guess that is the reason I have been slow on my turn. I will post a PPP tomorrow morning and then we can discuss how long I should play tomorrow night.
 
Well, if a war declaration gets triggered due to an AI passing a random number check, then it's pretty rare for said AI to actually have an army to begin with. War preparation mode often takes 50+ turns before an AI even builds up even units to attack.


I'm not really sure what we'd want to do differently. We're already at the point where additional units will cost us in Unit Supply, so it could be crippling to our economy to spam a ton of Archers.

We're the team with the highest Power rating out of any of the SGOTM teams. Yes, part of that Power came from techs, but before we even got those techs, we were tied with the highest Power rating.

What's on the table is the proposal to get TGLH and the Oracle. Every team is going to get TGLH or else be out of the chance to sit on the podium. So, TGLH isn't a bonus; it's one of the buy-ins to the Laurels' table. However, getting the Oracle for Civil Service is likely to set us apart from nearly every other team.

PD has gone for what looks like an early Settler 3 with a focus on Hammers over Commerce. So, they won't be in a position to Oracle Civil Service.


I suggest that we simply remain calm and stick to our chosen path. We're already planning to start on our first Archer in 3 turns when our Granary has been finished, and more Archers can be whipped if needed. I don't see us needing any additional war preparations, as our empire is pretty easily defendable.

Only if we were to, say, settle by the Horse Resource would such a City be really hard to defend, as it wouldn't be easily supported by our existing Cities and doesn't look to be in nearly as good of a choke-pointable area as our existing Cities are.


So, if anything, Shaka plotting war, possibly against us, would just mean don't REX further westward for a little while, so that we can defend our empire well without spreading ourselves too thinly.


With our spawn-busters and Creative Cultural Borders, we'll have advance warning of any impending attack if we just stick to the current plan. That's good enough, in my books.

Plus, we have a beautiful Road network that connects our Cities together, which other teams that went for early Animal Husbandry, in place of The Wheel -> Pottery, will lack.
 
I agree that we need to stick with the plan for now.

However, there are some things we can do, like working some Archers into the schedule as best as we can, even keeping them in the queue for a whip if they are needed.

We could push a scout out further west to scout for an army from Shaka, perhaps even try to figure out where he is?

Or at least have a whipping plan ready in case we need it.

We may not even be the target. But I fully understand Folket's discomfort. Have experienced it myself way too many times. :shifty:
 
City 3 Testing
Spoiler :
T64, 1440 BC
Size 3
14/26 Food
14/25 Hammers in an Archer

A] Grow to Size 4, build a Worker, and 2-pop-whip it
T64 - T66 Crab, Gems, G Cow

T67, 1320 BC
Size 4
13/28 Food
23/25 Hammers
-2.31 -> -2.48 Maintenance (a difference of 0.17... probably not enough to matter)

T67 Crab, Gems, GH Mine, G Cow (although we could work the Lake in place of the G Cow if we want)

T68 2-pop-whip

T68 Crab, Gems

T69, 1240 BC
Size 2
13/24 Food
23 + 15 = 38/25 Hammers
Worker can act on T69
- 2.12 Maintenance
1 Whipping Unhappiness


B] Grow to Size 3, build a Worker, and 1-pop-whip it

T64 - T67 Crab, Gems, GH Mine

T67, 1320 BC
Size 3
13/28 Food
14/25 + 24/60 = 38 Hammers

T68 1-pop-whip

T68 Crab, Gems

T69, 1240 BC
Size 2
14/24 Food
14 + 8 = 22/25 Hammers
Worker can act on T69
- 2.12 Maintenance
1 Whipping Unhappiness



So, scenario A] of 2-pop-whipping Worker 4 wins by far:
13 - 14 = -1 F
38 - 22 = + 16 H!!!!!!
Same Commerce*

* We also have the opportunity to convert 1 Hammer into 2 Commerce by working the Lake on Turn 67, which I think is the better play, but I didn't do it in this test run as I wanted to have an easy way to compare the two scenarios (a Commerce-neutral comparison seemed to be the easiest way to compare the two).

Conclusions:
1. Growing to Size 4 via working the G Cow on Turns 64 - 66 is by far the way to go
2. On T67, when we hit Size 4, we should work the Lake in place of the G Cow while we put 1 turn of Hammers into Worker 4
3. Having Worker 4 able to move on T69 buys us an extra Worker turn if we're in Anarchy on T70


Now you see the SUPREME POWER of us having gone for Pottery early on.


Sure, we got off to a slower start by getting Worker 3 in place of Settler 3 in terms of the growth of City 3, but our emphasis on Commerce netted us early Granaries, which quickly pays back the investment. Also, the extra Worker turns have enabled us to give a serious shot at Oracling Civil Service while having a well-connected empire (via Roads between all 4 of our first 4 Cities) that teams who skipped The Wheel won't have. The Roads offer us a level of safety in case we do need to emergency whip some units, as the units will actually have time to get to the front lines within a short period of time.


Archer
I'm certainly in favour of sending our first Archer westward to explore via Forests + Hills (for an Archer, a Hills square = the defensive bonus of a Forested square) and once our Archer 1 reaches Warrior 2's area, Warrior 2 can head to City 3 to become the City's Military Police unit (if we need one) or Warrior 2 can just stay in place spawn-busting if we don't need a Military Police unit.

Archer 1 will arrive on T70 (T71 if we learn Civil Service and revolt), but will be whippable at any time from T61 onward, if needed.


EDIT: We do need to upload a saved game on T60, but if we put up a PPP that goes beyond that point, I'd be fine with your playing session lasting longer and you just remembering to upload one saved game on T60 and another on the turn where you stop play.

The micro is well worked-out until about T65, so no pressure to play out until T69/T70 in the first round of play; feel free to split up playing into multiple sessions.
 
turn 58
W1: chop
W2: chop
W3: move 1NE of city 4

C1: wheat, crab, deer, mine, mine
C2: gems, farm
C3: crab, gems
C4: granary, work gems

workboat: go south
scout: move east to spawnbust peninsula



turn 59
W1: chop
W2: chop
W3: chop

C1: whip, work mine, deer, crab
C2: start wb, work wheat, gems
C3:
C4: start oracle

warrior 1 go to city 2

research CoL

turn 60
W1: 1S and chop (looses 10 hammers but saves one woker turn and one turn on the oracle.
W2: chop
W3: chop

C1: build GLH, work deer, crab, mine, mine,
C2: work wheat, gems
C3: build archer
C4:

Save for comparison

turn 61
W1: go on galley
W2: 1N
W3: chop

C1:
C2: wheat, gems, gems,
C3: build archer
C4: G farm

turn 62
W1: unload E of fur
W2: chop
W3: 1N

C1:
C2:
C3:
C4:

turn 63
W1: chop
W2: 1N
W3: chop

C1:
C2: wheat, gems, gems, mine
C3:
C4:

turn 64
W1: chop
W2: chop
W3: chop

C1: farm, deer, crab, mine, mine
C2:
C3: crab, gems, cow
C4:

turn 65
W1: chop
W2: farm 1E of city 3
W3: chop

C1: wheat, mine, mine, crab, deer
C2: farm, gems, gems, mine, build archer
C3:
C4:

turn 66
W1: move to fur
W2: move to SW of city 4
W3: move 1 SW and farm

C1: farm, mine, mine, deer, crab
C2: wheat, gems, gems, mine
C3:
C4:

turn 67
W1: camp
W2: chop
W3: move to forest S of corn

C1: build settler, crab, mine, mine, deer, farm
C2: wheat, gems, gems, mine, scientist
C3: crab, gems, cow, lake, build worker
C4: corn, farm

turn 68
W1: camp
W2: NW
W3: chop

C1: whip, crab, mine, deer
C2: wheat, gems, gems, scientist, scientist
C3: whip, gems, crab
C4:

turn 69
W1: camp
W2: chop
W3: chop
W4: pasture cow


C1: wheat, crab, deer, build archer
C2: farm, gems, gems, scientist, scientist
C3: crab, gems, build archer
C4:

settler loaded on galley
wb on crabs

19-26 beaker to spare after teching CoL,
 
Finishes GLH on turn 66 and oracle on turn 69.
 

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W1: 1S and chop (looses 10 hammers but saves one woker turn and one turn on the oracle.
We don't need to lose those 10 Hammers if we simply have Worker 3 partial Chop the P Riv For that is 1NE of City 4 for one turn, then move to the G Riv Farm that is 2N of Gems City, then board the Galley 2SE of there. Doing so gives Worker 3 enough time to unload on the eastern G For (1E of the Fur) to be able to Chop into TGLH on T65

Also, the Galley can move northward for 2 turns then back southward and still have its full movement points available when Worker 3 arrives on it, giving us a bit more spawn-busting of the peninsula after 2 turns' time.

I mean, if we have a way to not lose the 10 Hammers, why lose them if we don't have to?


turn 58
scout: move east to spawnbust peninsula

turn 59
warrior 1 go to city 2
The problem is that we need 2 units in the west... one to spawn-bust across of the water and one to stay in a defensive position as a forward-guard for any Barb units that come from the north, which protects our Gems Mines from being ravaged by cutting off any Barbs that come toward us.

We also don't need to move Warrior 1 until T60, so best not to move him any sooner than we need to.

After we settle City 4, we can see if it's save for the Scout to move 1SE P Riv For, and if it is, then:
T58 Scout moves 1SE P Riv For (3E of the G Corn), Warriors 1 and 3 stay in place
T59 Scout moves 2W to the Grassland (1E of the G Corn), Warriors 1 and 3 stay in place
T60 Scout moves 2W to the GH For (1W of the G Corn), Warrior 1 now can leave toward Gems City
T61 Scout moves 1SW GH For Riv where Warrior 1 used to be standing
T62 Scout moves 1SW G Riv + 1NW G Riv to Warrior 3's location, Warrior 3 can move 1NE G For (3W of the G Corn)
T63 Scout can stay in place on the G Riv where Warrior 3 used to be, while Warrior 3 moves 1SE to the GH Riv For where Warrior 1 used to be and acts are our "Barb magnet" for any Barbs that would otherwise head toward City 4 or toward our Gems Mines


What are your plans for Science rates?


Those are just some high-level comments without having game access just yet.

I can take a more detailed look at the micro roughly 18 hours from now, shortly before 24 hours after your PPP has been posted. Sorry that I can't do it sooner, but I think that's one of the reasons why we give 24 hours from a PPP, so that differing time zones can allow everyone a chance to give feedback.
 
For me I need to move warrior at turn 59 to not make city 2 unhappy. Maybe I work the wheat more then in your micro.

I'm not great at working out perfect science rates. I can do two turns at 0% then as high as possible.
 
I will keep editing in comments as I see them.

1. I see now why the Warrior is coming back sooner... that's because we're delaying when we get our Great Scientist. The tradeoff is "get the Great Scientist slower so that we can be at Size 5 when generating our Great Scientist." Let's compare the approaches.

What we end up doing is being 15 turns away from a Great Scientist on T69, instead of being 10 turns away from a Great Scientist on T69.

In favour of rushing the Great Scientist:At roughly 22 Commerce per turn, with Bureaucracy, that's a missing 33 * 0.50 = 16.5 Flasks per turn. Let's assume that we're smart about it and would save up Gold prior to getting the Great Scientist so that we'd be at a 100% Science Rate for those turns, giving us 5 * 16.5 = 82.5 Flasks.

In favour of delaying the Great Scientist:
Over time, we seem to have about an average of a 70% Science Rate.
From T61 to the arrival of the Great Scientist on T84, that's 84 - 61 = 23 turns. But, when we generate the Great Scientist in the other scenario on T79, we can work the Gems Mine in that scenario, so the timing is more like 79 - 61 = 18 turns.

But, let's split it up further...
From T67, we are at Size 5. Assume from that turn onward we get +1 F and +1 C per turn... even if Gems City is working the Wheat, then Cap needs to work a Farm instead of the Wheat, so we just earn the bonus from working an extra G Riv Farm.

So, that's 6 turns of earning 7 - 1 = +6 Commerce's bonus Flasks from the Library (as, otherwise, City 4 works the Gems Mine).

That's also 12 turns of earning +1 Commerce, +7 Commerce's bonus Flasks from the Library, and +1 Food.

Putting that all together:
6 turns * 6 * 0.25 * 0.70 + 12 * 1 + 12 * 7 * 0.25 * 0.70
= 6 * 1.5 * 0.70 + 12 + 12 * 1.75 * 0.70
= 6.3 + 12 + 14.7
= 33 Flasks

12 * 1 F = 12 Food

So, overall, getting that Great Scientist sooner gets us:
82.5 - 33 = +49 Flasks
- 12 Food

The main question that then remains is: can we still get Code of Laws by T69 if we go for the faster Great Scientist?


2. Spawn-busting, Fog-busting, and Defence
We're a bit dependent upon what Shaka's Scout does. If his Scout stays on the peninsula, then we really shouldn't need a unit over there.

Also, for any turns where we have a Worker Chopping the Forests to the NE and NE + N of City 4, we'll be doing pretty decent spawn-busting of that area.

Depending upon when we load a Worker into our Galley, our Galley could also help with spawn-busting the peninsula for a turn or two here and there.

Then there's also the Barb Cities factor to consider. In our test game, a Barb City self-founded a long time ago, until I deleted it as part of updating the terrain. Barb Cities can appear anywhere where we haven't fog-busted (different from spawn-busting), i.e. Barb Cities can appear anywhere that isn't in the line of sight of a non-Barb player's units or Culture.

Barb Cities like to self-found in areas with high net Food, so Grassland-heavy areas or areas with a Food Resource are generally high targets. Having a cluster of 2 or more Resources also makes for a good target.

So, I'm not really worried about the possibility of a Barb City spawning near the Sheep, as that area looks to be pretty Food-poor and only has 1 Resource there.

The Horse area looks to have a lot of Tundra, so I'm also less concerned about that area.

Anywhere that's heavy with Grassland squares, though, becomes an immediate target.

In terms of where a Barb City could mess us up, on the Sheep peninsula wouldn't be so bad, as we'd still keep our Foreign Trade Routes and we know that there isn't another island in that area, as we explored that area thoroughly, so a Barb City spawning there would be "out of the way."

A Barb City spawning by the Corn would cut off our Trade Routes, which would definitely mess up our Commerce in a big way.

A Barb City spawning to the west of City 3 might give us a buffer between us and Shaka. If it spawned near the Horse, we'd probably regret it, while if it spawned closer to Willem, seeing as how it can't spawn adjacent to his Cultural Borders, I can't see how such a City would be able to cut off Foreign Trade Routes until its Cultural Borders expanded, and Barb Cities' Cultural Borders rarely expand.

Then there's defence to consider.

Warrior 2 could feasibly come back to cover for the departing Warrior 1, which would free up the Scout to go eastward. However, doing so leaves the area directly west of City 3 open to spawn-busting.

Similarly, if Warrior 3 came back to cover for Warrior 1, the area to the north-west of City 3 could spawn Barb units, although if a Barb City appeared in the Grasslands there, we'd possibly be okay with that location, compared to a Barb City appearing near the Corn.

Included in the equation is the fact that we lose 10 Hammers on our GH Riv For Chop for the square that is 1W of the G Riv Gems Mine. In exchange, we have Worker 3 spawn-busting the east more by nature of spending more time Chopping the P Riv Forests at NE and NE + N of City 4. So, if we were to send the Scout westward, then those 10 Hammers would be worth the investment.

Or, we could think about it another way... if we instead earn those 10 Hammers, we can Chop out another Scout (or another Warrior) and have that unit spawn-bust the eastern peninsula. The cost, though, is 1 Commerce per turn, due to Unit Costs, which we can't really afford.

So, if we stick with the PPP's Worker plan, Worker 3 helps with spawn-busting a good part of the eastern peninsula until the end of T65, which we could use as a fact to justify sending the Scout toward the west.

Or, we switch to the Worker plan for Worker 3 that is listed in message #361, then we can afford to build an extra Scout or Warrior if we follow the PPP's approach for Gems City (except for 2 turns where City 4 will need to work the Gems Mine or 1 turn of work a GH For) to earn enough Hammers to finish off the Oracle. But, then doing so delays our Great Scientist and puts us further behind on Flasks in the medium term (see point 1 above).

Or, we might just barely have enough Commerce to do it all... get our extra spawn-buster, get our Great Scientist faster by not growing Gems City to Size 5, and getting the extra +10 Hammers from our Forest Chop. We'll have to test to see how tight the Commerce is to see if it can allow for such a possibility.

Another thought is that looking at the uploaded T69 saved game, we are FAR away from getting a Granary in City 4. That fact hurts. Part of the reason is due to working a G Riv Farm instead of the Gems Mine, and part of the fact is from missing the 10 Hammers from 1 Chop. It would be really nice to be close to being able to 1-pop-whip that Granary, so that City 4 doesn't suffer considerably... having to 2-pop-whip the Granary is going to be a major sacrifice.

So, perhaps we can build the extra Scout out of City 3 prior to building the Archer. Doing so gives us a Scout to send to the peninsula (the Scout can get there reasonably quickly), allowing us to keep up good spawn-busting and fog-busting in the west, allowing us to keep those 10 Hammers and putting them toward City 4's Granary, and having City 4 work the Gems Mine more often so as to put more raw Hammers toward making that Granary 1-pop-whippable.

Certainly, whenever we're at a 0% Science Rate, City 4 can be working the Gems Mine, although probably more frequently than that is going to be the answer, as delaying our Great Scientist is costly in the medium term.

That said, if we absolutely need the Flasks to make it all work in the short term, then we'll have no choice but to accept the medium term net loss in Flasks.

Of course, we want to get our Archer 1 out soon, so that probably puts us back to the need to get our spawn-buster out of City 4.


Thus, a combination like the following may work:
1. Worker plan for Workers 1 and 2 as listed in message #359
2. Worker plan for Worker 3 as listed in message #361
3. Gems City approach of growing to Size 5, similar to the PPP, but with City 4 stealing the Gems Mine whenever we're at a 0% Science Rate
4. When the first Chop in City 4 arrives, we will switch to building a Scout; this turn should be a turn at 100% Science (so that we aren't stealing the Gems Mine) and thus we will only convert 1 Hammer -> 1 Gold due to making 31 / 15 Hammers in a Scout
5. When City 4 gets to Size 2, we will work a GH For instead of the unimproved Corn, since Hammers up to 30 Hammers prior to getting the Granary will beat working a 3-Food square
6. Plan to put the northern Fish City location's Chop into City 4 soon after Chopping the Oracle for an extra 16 Hammers, getting us closer to being able to 1-pop-whip that Granary... i.e. no point in rushing to Farm the G Corn if we're stuck having to 2-pop-whip the Granary... we'd lose out relative to 1-pop-whipping the Granary and delaying the G Corn Farm by a bit; yes, I recognise that the PPP's Worker plan puts 2 Workers near the G Corn, but without us being anywhere near getting that Granary (3 Hammers would overflow from the Oracle for a total of 5 Hammers into the Granary), then Farming that G Corn ASAP would actually hurt us relative to a method of getting that Granary out as a 1-pop-whipping action


3. City 4's Location
Since we have a Road going toward City 4, in terms of still being able to get immediate Trade Routes, work the Gems Mine, the Corn, and get 5 Forest Chops, we have the option of settling 1W.

Doing so gives us less fog-busting before our Cultural Borders expand, but gives us a ton of extra fog-busting after our Cultural Borders expand, particularly in the west, as the Peaks then come within our Cultural Borders.

Spoiler :





We'd need to work out Worker actions that still worked and we'd need a different spawn-busting + fog-busting plan for our units, but as long as the Worker turns worked out, then settling 1W off of the River is an option.

Doing so forces us into the fast-Great-Scientist approach, as we wouldn't share the G Riv Farm square with Gems City, but then we also buy ourselves 1 more turn of not needing to move Warrior 1.

It's a possibility worth considering if we can figure out a way to make the Worker actions work out.


If we settled 1W of where we had planned we would:
1. Need a new Worker plan... although I think that we could pretty much use Worker 3's message #161 approach, Worker 2's message #159 approach, and Worker 1 would get his last Chop done a bit early and would be adjacent to the G Corn, so he could put 2 extra turns into Farming the G Corn relative to following the message #159 approach for Worker 1. We'd also get our +10 Hammers from one Chop this way and would be pretty close to being able to 1-pop-whip the Granary as we'd be forced into the approach of having City 4 work the Gems Mine
2. Gems City would follow the fast-Great-Scientist approach and thus wouldn't grow to Size 5, earning us a lot more Flasks in the medium term, a much smaller amount of less Food, and it could probably work without the extra Flasks from Gem City's Library in the short term as we wouldn't need to build a 1-Commerce-per-turn-costing additional spawn-buster
3. Without building a Scout, we'd save on Commerce and thus Code of Laws should hopefully still be doable as long as we maintain our Trade Routes
4. The extra Hammers from working the Gems Mine in City 4 and the extra +10 Hammers from a Forest Chop would put us pretty close to being able to 1-pop-whip the Granary at the ideal time, if not exactly at the ideal time, without having to invest Worker turns immediately on Chopping Fish City's Forest or working a GH For square or any other such tricks
5. Be able to push out our western spawn-busters further westward at some point sooner than getting Archer 1

Doing so might be the best way to ensure that we get good spawn-busting, good fog-busting, get a good amount of Flasks in the medium term, get City 4 up and running with a Granary and a Farmed G Corn ASAP, and not need to recruit a costly +1 spawn-buster to make it all happen. So, I'm thinking that this approach is the one that we should target doing.


Here's a picture of the unit movements that we could perform, which allows for us to send the Scout to the east:
Spoiler :


Ugh... moving City 4's location means needing a new Worker solution, since Worker 3 can no longer use City 4's auto-created Road to move southward.

Okay, the only way that I can see to make settling 1W work is to use the "lose 10 Hammers" approach. That fact sucks, but the improved fog-busting makes such a significant difference that it seems like a worthwhile trade off.

So:
Turn 58, 1680 BC

W1: partially Chop GH Riv For (SE + S of G Corn)
W2: Chop G For (SW + W of Cap)
W3: Move to GH For that is 1S of G Corn (1W of City 4's western location)

Turn 59, 1640 BC

W1: partially Chop GH Riv For and STOP!! (SE + S of G Corn)
W2: Chop G For (SW + W of Cap)
W3: Chop GH For that is 1S of the G Corn

Turn 60, 1600 BC

W1: Move 1S GH Riv For Road (1W of G Riv Gems Mine) and complete Chop for 20 H
W2: Complete the Chop G For (SW + W of Cap)
W3: Chop GH For that is 1S of the G Corn

Turn 61, 1560 BC

W1: Move into Gems City and load into the Galley
W2: Move 1N G For (2W of Cap)
W3: Complete the Chop GH For that is 1S of the G Corn

Turn 62, 1520 BC

W1: Unload on eastern G For (1E of Fur)
W2: Complete the Chop G For (2W of Cap)
W3: Move 1NW GH For (1W of the G Corn)

Turn 63, 1480 BC

W1: Chop the G For (1E of the Fur)
W2: Move 1N G For (NW + W of Cap)
W3: Chop GH For (1W of the G Corn)

Turn 64, 1440 BC

W1: Chop the G For (1E of the Fur)
W2: Complete the Chop G For (NW + W of Cap)
W3: Chop GH For (1W of the G Corn)

Turn 65, 1400 BC

W1: Complete the Chop the G For (1E of the Fur)
W2: Move to G Road that is 1E of City 3, partial Farm, and STOP
W3: Complete the Chop GH For (1W of the G Corn)

Turn 66, 1360 BC

W1: Move 1W to Fur
W2: Move to the GH Riv For that is SE + S of the G Corn (1E of the G Riv Gems Mine)
W3: Move 2E (1E of the G Corn)

Turn 67, 1320 BC

W1: Camp the Fur
W2: Complete the Chop GH Riv For that is SE + S of the G corn
W3: Move 2E to the P Riv For (3E of the G Corn)

T68, 1280 BC

W1: Camp the Fur
W2: Move 2NE to the P Riv For (3E of the G Corn)
W3: Chop P Riv For (3E of the G Corn)

T69, 1240 BC

W1: Camp the Fur
W2: Chop P Riv For (3E of the G Corn)
W3: Complete the Chop P Riv For (3E of the G Corn)


It's not the absolute best scenario in terms of our Worker actions, but it gets the Chops done in time, it leaves us in position to quickly get 13 H from sending a Worker to Chop the P Riv For that is 2S of Fish City's Fish Resource, and it gives us the best spawn-busting + fog-busting approach possible.

A compromise of settling 1W (i.e. 1SE of the G Corn) is slightly higher City Maintenance by about 0.23 at Size 1. All that we can do is play it out to see if Code of Laws can still be achieved by T70 (I'm trying to do so right now).


It seems that the micro in the PPP in message #368 grows the capital into Unhappiness and also delays TGLH by 1 turn. Please see message #273 for ideas.
 
Will not settling W delay the granary as well? I will need a little time to work the new scenario out.

As for 50 turns to gather an army. Usually not the case for Shaka that has unit build prob of 40.
 
According to message #273, we were completing the build in the capital at the end of T65.

EDIT: I'll have to look more closely at that micro again to see how to reproduce it with our existing approach, but I hope that the possible drop in Commerce from working the Crab less than in message #368 won't mess us up and we might be stuck with T66. Or, perhaps the extra Commerce from getting TGLH earlier balances it all out.

As for settling 1W...
We do have to give up on the +10 Hammers, but we'll have put in more base Hammers from having worked the Gems Mine.

Ultimately, it is about trying to address the spawn-busting + fog-busting problem.

We actually can't move Warrior 3 as far as I had hoped, as we'll still need to spawn-bust the G Riv square where Warrior 3 is currently standing, although we can do so from the south side of the water.

We can certainly stick with settling City 4 where we'd planned, but then we're going to need to figure something out... putting Hammers from City 3 or City 4 into an extra Warrior or Scout, or perhaps not pushing out our spawn-busters as far (since I just realised that we can't send out Warrior 3 as far as I'd like, anyway) and then just accepting the fact that Warrior 3 is going to have to stay on the G Riv For that is SW + W + W of the G Corn once Warrior 1 vacates the area.


EDIT: Anyway, I'll finish off playing out the "settle 1W" scenario and then can go back to trying the hybrid approach listed in message #372 under point number 2, which is probably what we're going to end up doing.
EDIT to that EDIT: Actually, settling 1W turned out to be pretty awesome and I'm happy with doing so.

Getting TGLH moves our 3 Foreign Trade Routes to the capital.


***** One has to wonder... is it worth 3-pop-whipping the capital for Settler 5 shortly before we slip into Bureaucracy? We'd get City 5 out sooner, but we'd miss out on an extra 3 * 15 = 45 Hammers from whipping. That's like getting a Warrior and a Work Boat for free, almost getting a Galley for free, or almost getting 2 Archers for free. It's hard to believe that settling City 5 a few turns earlier can make up for that loss.

If we're going to whip Settler 5 post-Bureaucracy, which seems like a good play, then hiring Scientists in Cap seems to be a good thing to do, as we don't want to grow into Unhappiness (which is detrimental) and because Specialists post-Bureaucracy are relatively weaker as Bureaucracy does not improve Specialists, while Bureaucracy will improve Food (that gets whipped), Hammers, and raw Commerce. So, we might as well get in some turns of hiring Scientists prior to getting Bureaucracy.
 
Here's the Settle 1W Scenario
Comments
What's interesting is that by delaying the capital's Settler, we didn't need to use the Wheat, so Gems City is only 3 turns away from growing to Size 5 will still getting the Great Scientist 5 turns sooner. I think that this approach is going to be a good hybrid of growing Gems City to Size 5 but also getting our Great Scientist much sooner.

Of course, delaying the capital's Settler 5 earns us +45 Hammers minus whatever Food + Hammers + Commerce we would have earned from settling City 5 earlier, plus extra Flasks and GPP from having hired Scientists in Cap for longer.

We still will want to get our Great Scientist #2 from Gems City, but it doesn't hurt to earn some extra GPP in Cap now, when they come at a "normal" price, whereas post-Bureaucracy, it'll cost more to generate GPP via Specialists, since hiring Specialists in Cap post-Bureaucracy would mean missing out on the bonus Hammers and Commerce from Bureaucracy's bonus itself.


We'll have 2 + 12 = 14 Hammers in City 4's Granary due to having worked the Gems Mine there constantly. Add in 13 Hammers from Chopping the P Riv For that is 2S of the northern Fish and we'll be at 27 Hammers... by then, we'll have actually more than 30 total Hammers from the City Centre square + the Gems Mine having been worked for a few turns, so we can 1-pop-whip our Granary at the ideal time.


We have pretty solid spawn-busting.


In order to get the G Corn irrigated, we can Farm a G Riv square (we'd have to Farm a non-G Riv square by settling City 4 SE + E of the G Corn).


Code of Laws by T70 is very viable... with the right Science Rates or with an extra Foreign Trade route or two, we'll easily get it by T69 (we're 8 Flasks short but have 8 Gold in the bank in this test run).


Warrior 3 only had to leave his spawn-busting position for 2 turns (T60 and T61), since Worker 3 arrived on T62 to help with covering the fog-busting area that Warrior 1 left vacant.


Overall, this approach leaves us with superior spawn-busting + fog-busting and doesn't really seem to compromise that much...
T65 TGLH is good
T69 + 10 turns to Great Scientist #2 out of Gems City is good
T69 + 3 non-Anarchy turns of Gems City being at Size 5 is a nice bonus
City 4's Granary will not be delayed even though we missed out on 10 Hammers
The capital doesn't even need the Wheat until Gems City has grown... build the Settler while it is being whipped... build a Worker in 1 turn with the overflow Hammers... take back the Wheat on T73 when Gems City no longer needs it

I actually think that this approach is probably the best that we can do. We could settle on the G Riv (SE + E of the G Corn) in order to earn the +10 Hammers, but then our spawn-busting in the west won't be as good... if we have to fight even +1 Barb Archer as a result, then we will have likely spent more than 10 Hammers fighting it off.


Approach Used

Turn 58, 1680 BC

Settler 4: move 1NW G and settle at 1SE of G Corn (NW + N of G Riv Gems Mine)
C4: Examine City, steal the Gems square, build Granary

W1: partially Chop GH Riv For (SE + S of G Corn)
W2: Chop G For (SW + W of Cap)
W3: Move to GH For that is 1S of G Corn (1W of City 4's western location)

C1: wheat, crab, deer, mine, mine
C2: gems, farm
C3: crab, gems
C4: granary, work gems

scout: move 1SE P Riv For (3 of G Corn)

Galley 1: Stays in Gems City


turn 59, 1640 BC

research CoL

Science Rate 0%

W1: partially Chop GH Riv For and STOP!! (SE + S of G Corn)
W2: Chop G For (SW + W of Cap)
W3: Chop GH For that is 1S of the G Corn (1W of City 4)

C1: whip, work mine, mine, deer
C2: start wb, work wheat, gems
C3:
C4: start oracle

Scout: 1NE P and Skip turn (NW + NW + W of P Sheep)
Depending upon where Shaka's Scout is located, we could potentially move 1SE P (NW + W + W of P Sheep) instead of skipping our turn... for example, in the test game, Sury's Scout is NW + NW + W of the P Sheep, so we know that it will be safe for us to move our Scout further SE this turn

warrior 1 stays where he is for this turn


Turn 60, T1600 BC

Science Rate still 0%

W1: Move 1S GH Riv For Road (1W of G Riv Gems Mine) and complete Chop for 20 H
W2: Complete the Chop G For (SW + W of Cap) into TGLH
W3: Chop GH For that is 1S of the G Corn

C1: Yes, still at Size 3, see message #273
C1: build GLH, (still working deer, mine, mine)
C2: work wheat, gems
C3: build archer
C4:

Scout: Move 1SE P and Skip turn (NW + W of P Sheep)
If we made the above move last turn, then just stay in place until City 4's Cultural Borders expand (NW + W of P Sheep)

Warrior 1: Move 1S G Riv For (SW + SW of G Corn)

Warrior 3: Move 1E G Riv For (SW + W + W of G Corn)

Save for comparison


Turn 61, 1560 BC

Science Rate 40%
Spoiler :
Instead of losing 0.75 fractional Flasks, we lose 0.15 fractional Flasks + 0.2 fractional Gold and get +1 bonus Flasks for having 25 + 1 = 26 base Flasks instead of 3 + 1 = 4 base flasks, since 26 * 0.2 = 5.2, which floors to 5, while 4 * 0.2 = 0.8 which floors to 0.
10% might also be a good number for this turn
Instead of losing 0.75 fractional Flasks, we lose 0.09 fractional Flasks + 0.3 fractional Gold and get +1 bonus Flasks for having 9 + 1 = 10 base Flasks instead of 3 + 1 = 4 base flasks, since 10 * 0.2 = 2.0, while 4 * 0.2 = 0.8 which floors to 0.


W1: Move into Gems City and load into the Galley
W2: Move 1N G For (2W of Cap)
W3: Complete the Chop GH For that is 1S of the G Corn

C1: work deer, crab, mine, mine
C2: wheat, gems, hire 1 Scientist!
C3:
C4:

Galley 1: Make sure that Worker 1 is aboard before moving

Scout: Stay in place (NW + W of P Sheep)

Warrior 1: Move toward Gems City

Warrior 3: Stay in place on the G Riv For (SW + W + W of the G Corn, otherwise the G Riv that is 1W of here will not be fog-busted)


Turn 62, 1520 BC

Science Rate still 40%

W1: Unload on eastern G For (1E of Fur)
W2: Complete the Chop G For (2W of Cap)
W3: Move 1NW GH For (1W of the G Corn)

C1:
C2:
C3:
C4:

Scout: Stay in place (NW + W of P Sheep)

Warrior 3: Move 1W G Riv (SW + W + W + W of G Corn, now that Worker 3 is doing the fog-busting for us)


Turn 63, 1480 BC

DELETE WILLEM'S SECOND CITY, as we can't rely on getting said Foreign Trade Route in the real game!

Actually, there's not much point me trying to micro Science Rates after this point, as a single City being settled in the real game can alter the ideal values.

Science Rate 100%

W1: Chop the G For (1E of the Fur)
W2: Move 1N G For (NW + W of Cap)
W3: Chop GH For (1W of the G Corn)

C1:
C2:
C3:
C4:

Warrior 3: 1SE G Riv (SW + SW + W of G Corn)
Warrior 3: Probably just stay in place on the G Riv (SW + W + W + W of G Corn), since we can't leave that G Riv square (SW + W + W + W of G Corn) unspawn-busted

Scout: Now that City 4's Cultural Borders have expanded, we can move 1SE P (1W of the P Sheep) to check for Barbs, then, if no Barbs are visible, move 1N P For (1NW of the P Sheep). That location spawn-busts for Barb Galleys a bit better


Turn 64, 1440 BC

W1: Chop the G For (1E of the Fur)
W2: Complete the Chop G For (NW + W of Cap)
W3: Chop GH For (1W of the G Corn)

C1: work deer, mine, mine, fur, island's G For
C2: wheat, gems, hire 2nd Scientist!
C3: crab, gems, cow
C4:


Turn 65, 1400 BC

W1: Complete the Chop the G For (1E of the Fur)
W2: Move to G Road that is 1E of City 3, partial Farm, and STOP
W3: Complete the Chop GH For (1W of the G Corn)

C1: TGLH will be completed at the end of this turn with 200/200 H
C2:
C3:
C4:

Gift Monotheism to Willem


Turn 66, 1360 BC

Open Borders with Shaka

Do not Open Borders with Isabella

W1: Move 1W to Fur
W2: Move to the GH Riv For that is SE + S of the G Corn (1E of the G Riv Gems Mine)
W3: Move 2E (1E of the G Corn)

C1: Build Settler, work Deer, Crab, GH Riv Mine, 2 Scientists for 8 total Hammers, as we want less than 10 Hammers going into Settler 5 for whipping it post-Bureaucracy
C2:
C3: If the Barbs are rushing us, switch G Cow to GH Mine to complete Archer 1 one turn sooner
C4:


Turn 67, 1320 BC

W1: Camp the Fur
W2: Complete the Chop GH Riv For that is SE + S of the G corn
W3: Move 2E to the P Riv For (3E of the G Corn)

C1: Build Work Boat, work Deer, Crab, G Riv Farm, 2 Scientists (growth in 3 turns)
C2:
C3: Build Worker, work wheat, gems, cow, lake If the Barbs are rushing us, put some Hammers into Archer 2, instead of Worker 4 (we'll still be at Size 3 in this case, anyway, and will want to grow to Size 4, even if we may not need to complete Archer 2 right away)
C4:


T68, 1280 BC

W1: Camp the Fur
W2: Move 2NE to the P Riv For (3E of the G Corn)
W3: Chop P Riv For (3E of the G Corn)

C1:
C2:
C3: 2-pop-whip Worker 4, work Crab, Gems
C4:

T69, 1240 BC

W1: Camp the Fur
W2: Chop P Riv For (3E of the G Corn)
W3: Complete the Chop P Riv For (3E of the G Corn)
W4: Move 1W G Cow and Pasture

C1:
C2:
C3: Build Archer
C4: Gems, Corn


Pretty Picture
Spoiler :
 

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Good comment regarding the settler. I did not really see a good way to get the GLH on turn 65 without choping N of fur. Perhaps working fur, mine, mine, deer for 4 extra turn and working mine instead of wheat for an extra turn. It feels like we need to sacrifice a lot.

Saw the test game now. That looks very good.

What should we do if we get a religion?

So I need a save for turn 60. How many turns after that should I play?

So do I have green light to do the micro from post 375 with city 4 SE of corn?
 
Good comment regarding the settler. I did not really see a good way to get the GLH on turn 65 without choping N of fur. Perhaps working fur, mine, mine, deer for 4 extra turn and working mine instead of wheat for an extra turn. It feels like we need to sacrifice a lot.
It ended up being the solution from message #273, where instead of being tempted to grow to Size 4 in 1 turn, we spend 2 turns at Size 3 but work the second GH Mine for those 2 turns, thereby earning us the missing Hammer.

This way also avoids growing into Unhappiness at Size 5. Every time that we grow into Unhappiness, there's a potential gain of more Hammers or Commerce elsewhere by delaying growth, and that was the solution.


What should we do if we get a religion?
Don't revolt (we don't want to delay the Oracle), hope that Confucianism auto-spreads, then we will save our Missionary to send to some AI's capital... possibly to Willem and hope that Elizabeth remains a heathen so that she gets encouraged to chase after founding her own Religion (either via Philosophy or Theology, either of which we'd love to get in trade), possibly to Shaka if we can find his capital and have an extra Galley to spare to send his way.

EDIT: Shaka would probably be my preference, as getting him to Friendly is far more important than getting Willem to Friendly, since Willem will trade nearly at will, while Shaka is tight-fisted with techs except to his Friends.


So I need a save for turn 60. How many turns after that should I play?
Okay, I attached a T60 saved game to the above message so that you can take a look. One of the keys is T59 working both Mines in Cap.

How much further? I don't know... maybe play through the test game to a certain point (T65?), see if the micro matches up (if it doesn't, ask questions or yell at me for missing stuff)... I can upload a T65 saved game, too, or any other turn that you want... and then play out as far as that. Probably no point in trying to play out to T69 in one session, as a lot of things can come up in that time... possible tech trades, Barbs being mischievous, etc.


So do I have green light to do the micro from post 375 with city 4 SE of corn?
I'm happy enough with that approach, but please play through at least part of it in a test game first... it's possible that I missed including an important detail and doing so will give you a chance to ask questions.
 
As for the real game...
1. I like to take screenshots of the F4 TECHS screen each turn. If a tech disappears from the Can Research column, it can be very hard to notice visually, but is easy to notice if you take a screenshot each turn and paste it into Microsoft Paint, then paste the same image over top of that image on the next turn... Ctrl + z and Ctrl + y lets you undo and redo the pasting operation to flip between the two images to watch for differences.

Spotting said differences can either give us a clue as to what an AI is researching or getting in trade.

2. As soon as Elizabeth isn't Shaka's Worst Enemy, we want to gift her Animal Husbandry

3. As soon as Shaka isn't Elizabeth's Worst Enemy, we really should gift him Masonry + Math. If he builds a Wonder or researches Construction, we'll be happy for it. His research pace isn't anywhere close to ours, so if he goes after Construction (a Military tech which those 2 techs unlock), then he won't get it in time for him to build Cats to help him in a war, but he will get the tech soon enough for us to try to get it out of him

4. The whole point of working out the micro in the test game is to give you more of a chance to focus on things that happen in the real game which won't happen in the test game, so feel free to take your time with the turns and look for interesting insights to share with us
 
I played out the micro and made myself familiar with it.

I can play the real game up to turn 65 tonight?

I uploaded my 69 save so that It may be check for mistakes.

Is it really a wb we should build in Athens? I'm still worried about the war.

Do I have the mandate of the team to optimize the two turns at 40% research to number which gives small fraction given trade routes in the real game?
 

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