[BTS] SGOTM 24 Xteam

[zbgayumn]

I would prefer not to run an artist, which would slow growth of a potentially large city.Not sure I understand the immediacy of your concern. Since we are certainly going to capture his western city eventually, suspect your concern is preventing him from chopping forest. Do you have reason to believe that the city will be producing culture soon? Would converting Elm to Confu allay your concern?

Appreciate the feedback. What about a green light -- and from others as well (and/or additional feedback)?

We might be fine for another 20 turns unless Darius is also running Caste. I can go with fractals' suggestion and just get the artist back after Elm hits Size 3.

What I meant about bulbing is that it seems unlikely it will take the whole turnset to get Machinery, so was there a possibility of using another GS, and if so, on what? I suppose if we can't trade for Calendar we probably won't get any farther than Machinery...

Green from me

 

[zbgayumn]

In anticipation of Feudalism, will delay completion of swords until can get the extra experience points. Will be sending chariot and DS to dye island to protect our future city there.

Save and log:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG024_AD0225_01.CivBeyondSwordSave


Here is your Session Turn Log from 125 AD to 225 AD:

Turn 120, 125 AD: Sitting Bull's Golden Age has begun!!!
Turn 120, 125 AD: Sitting Bull converts to Confucianism!
Turn 120, 125 AD: Sitting Bull adopts Caste System!
Turn 120, 125 AD: Sitting Bull adopts Pacifism!
Turn 120, 125 AD: Nabu-rimanni (Great Scientist) has been born in Oak (Sitting Bull)!
Turn 120, 125 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Ombú. Work has now begun on a Research.

Turn 121, 150 AD: You have discovered Metal Casting!
Turn 121, 150 AD: You have constructed a Market in Oak. Work has now begun on a Swordsman.
Turn 121, 150 AD: You have trained a Settler in West Palm Beech. Work has now begun on a Swordsman.
Turn 121, 150 AD: Shankara (Great Prophet) has been born in Persepolis (Darius I)!
Note Stalin is now pleased with us

IBT: GP born in Persepolis

Turn 122, 175 AD: Elm has grown to size 3.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Ironwood has grown to size 2.
Turn 122, 175 AD: Charles Darwin (Great Scientist) has been born in Ombú (Sitting Bull)!
Turn 122, 175 AD: Darius I has completed The Kong Miao!
Turn 122, 175 AD: Darius I has founded Dariush Kabir. in our western desert -- a total junk city, unless there is a late-game resource around

Turn 123, 200 AD: Darius I has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 123, 200 AD: Bismarck will trade Incense got it for corn

Turn 124, 225 AD: Aspen will grow to size 3 on the next turn.

Elm only got 5 culture and then switched to Merchant. What's up with that?

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Elm only got 5 culture and then switched to Merchant. What's up with that?" Had been manipulating growth to get granary built with food bin half full. Actually caught the merchant mistake and switched back to artist before playing again.

Completed play through our GA. We have Machinery and are now researching Optics. It's getting late again, so I'm going to just post save and log, and I will edit and post notes for discussion tomorrow morning.

We need to make progress. If no one else wants to step in now, I can continue, but happy to turn it over. Like to know soon, though.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG024_AD0325_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Here is your Session Turn Log from 225 AD to 325 AD: [Morning edits in red]

Turn 124, 225 AD: Taoism has spread in West Palm Beech.
Turn 124, 225 AD: You have constructed a Granary in Elm. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.

T125: Trade Mono to Stalin for 30 gold
Turn 125, 250 AD: You have discovered Aesthetics!
Turn 125, 250 AD: Xi Ling Shi (Great Scientist) has been born in Pine (Sitting Bull)!
Turn 125, 250 AD: Stalin adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 125, 250 AD: St. Paul (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

IBT: Bismarck demands 60 gold, which is refused, and costs us a diplo point with him

T 126: Trade Philo and 50 gold to Darius for Feudalism; and then trade Aesthetics to Darius for 60 gold;
Turn 126, 275 AD: The borders of Elm are about to expand.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Darius I will trade Feudalism
Turn 126, 275 AD: You have discovered Feudalism!
Turn 126, 275 AD: Sitting Bull adopts Vassalage!
Turn 126, 275 AD: You have discovered Calendar!
Turn 126, 275 AD: You have trained a Swordsman in Oak. Work has now begun on a Wealth.
Turn 126, 275 AD: You have trained a Swordsman in West Palm Beech. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 126, 275 AD: The borders of Elm have expanded!

T127: Trade deer to Bismarck for 4gpt
T127: Scout finds a congregation of Stalin's forces in his southwest
T127: Note Bismarck is now researching CS, so that's a tech we should probably plan to eventually trade for (in addition to Construction)
Turn 127, 300 AD: The borders of Aspen are about to expand.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Bismarck is the worst enemy of Stalin.
Turn 127, 300 AD: The borders of Aspen are about to expand.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Darius I will trade Horse
Turn 127, 300 AD: Stalin will trade Copper
Turn 127, 300 AD: Bloodwood has been founded.
Turn 127, 300 AD: You have discovered (bulbed) Machinery!
Turn 127, 300 AD: The borders of Aspen have expanded!
Turn 127, 300 AD: You have constructed a Granary in Ironwood. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Sitting Bull's Golden Age has ended...

Turn 128, 325 AD: Elm has grown to size 4.
Turn 128, 325 AD: Bismarck has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 128, 325 AD: Stalin won't trade Copper (we're no longer getting a diplo bonus for being a good trading partner)

For Discussion:

Now that at least 3 Civs have Feudalism, the barbs are going to get longbows pretty soon, so razing Apache quickly is a priority.

Because gold to finance research is at a premium right now, question whether it's wise to build a trireme with the intention of upgrading to a caravel. That tactic will save us several turns, though, and it looks like we will have time to build it after the forge in WPB about the time we complete research on Optics. That would change if we luck into a tech for 100+ gold trading option and can research at 100%.

Going to war, which we can only do with any chance of success after we're back in Slavery (and probably into OR, as well), would seem to be around 20 turns off, if we're going to complete our GP creation program (which we are pretty wedded to at this point).

Going to war (with a winning hand, of course) as soon as possible is usually the best policy. So, advocating we consider building an army to attack Persia sooner rather than later. What would such an army need to consist of to be successful?

Research after Optics needs to be planned, and may well depend on answer to question above. I'm tentatively advocating for bulbing Engineering after Bismarck or an off-continent AI researches Construction and we trade for it.

Wondering whether our commerce would be better spent on researching Guilds (after, hopefully, trading for HBR) or on finishing up Astro after a bulb.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I'm going to be ok for time next week for 10 days or so and would be happy to take over after the weekend, if you can keep it going until then that would be great.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Good to hear, NZ. If you have a little time, sure could use your input on important decisions being made for this week's continuing play.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Yes I should have time to look tomorrow.

 

[zbgayumn]

For Discussion:

Now that at least 3 Civs have Feudalism, the barbs are going to get longbows pretty soon, so razing Apache quickly is a priority.

Because gold to finance research is at a premium right now, question whether it's wise to build a trireme with the intention of upgrading to a caravel. That tactic will save us several turns, though, and it looks like we will have time to build it after the forge in WPB about the time we complete research on Optics. That would change if we luck into a tech for 100+ gold trading option and can research at 100%.

Going to war, which we can only do with any chance of success after we're back in Slavery (and probably into OR, as well), would seem to be around 20 turns off, if we're going to complete our GP creation program (which we are pretty wedded to at this point).

Going to war (with a winning hand, of course) as soon as possible is usually the best policy. So, advocating we consider building an army to attack Persia sooner rather than later. What would such an army need to consist of to be successful?

Research after Optics needs to be planned, and may well depend on answer to question above. I'm tentatively advocating for bulbing Engineering after Bismarck or an off-continent AI researches Construction and we trade for it.

Wondering whether our commerce would be better spent on researching Guilds (after, hopefully, trading for HBR) or on finishing up Astro after a bulb.

I hope we get to Apache in time, it could be too late already.

I still think the gold spent on upgrading is worth it. Especially if the trireme has moved to Aspen or Bloodwood where we get a really good head start.

BTW, it's not possible to bulb Engineering any more. Optics has priority and if get that it's Astro, and if we get that it's Sci Meth, and on it goes...

So, there are three major things we need to worry about in the endgame:

1. Getting 50 x 8 worker turns squeezed into the window between researching Sci Meth and starting Environmentalism
2. How do we get all remaining civs to run Environmentalism for at least 1 turn?
3. How do we win the game?

#3 is definitely the biggest task and so far Conquest/Domination has been the focus. We ruled out Space and Culture based on timing, the UN also is a bit of delay. The only other option left is Religious. I think we should definitely keep that one as an option. No one has built Apostolic Palace yet, but I expect it will come soon.

#1 is going to be a challenge. I would certainly consider getting into Serfdom after Sci Meth to cut that down to 5 x 50 worker turns.
#2 is hopefully the easiest. As long as we don't have terrible relations with someone, we can use techs to bribe them into Enviro.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I hope we get to Apache in time, it could be too late already. Why do you say that? There are still archers defending. Your concern suggests that we should have a go at the city as soon as we get five units -- 2 twice-promoted swords and 3 chariots -- in place, assuming 3 archers are still defending.

I still think the gold spent on upgrading is worth it. Especially if the trireme has moved to Aspen or Bloodwood where we get a really good head start. And if we can't get it built in time to sail north before Optics is researched?

BTW, it's not possible to bulb Engineering any more. Understood, we would have to have Astro (and Construction) first, and that should be given serious consideration (one bulb and research the rest). Optics has priority and if get that it's Astro, and if we get that it's Sci Meth, and on it goes. Of course Optics is priority, but we can't bulb Sci Meth for a while. So wouldn't Engineering be an option for the next bulb after Astro (if we go for that soon)?

So, there are three major things we need to worry about in the endgame:

1. Getting 50 x 8 worker turns squeezed into the window between researching Sci Meth and starting Environmentalism How likely are we going to have the full 50 forests?
2. How do we get all remaining civs to run Environmentalism for at least 1 turn?
3. How do we win the game?

#3 is definitely the biggest task and so far Conquest/Domination has been the focus. We ruled out Space and Culture based on timing, the UN also is a bit of delay. The only other option left is Religious. I think we should definitely keep that one as an option. No one has built Apostolic Palace yet, but I expect it will come soon. How soon are we going to have to make a decision on this to be at all efficient?

#1 is going to be a challenge. I would certainly consider getting into Serfdom after Sci Meth to cut that down to 5 x 50 worker turns.Can't whip workers or units in Serfdom.
#2 is hopefully the easiest. As long as we don't have terrible relations with someone, we can use techs to bribe them into Enviro.

ZB, we have 2 GSs in hand and plan to create four more (or possibly a GM in place of one of them), for a total of six bulbs. How do you see their best use?

Here's what I'm thinking . . . I'm concerned that we've got to start conquering pretty soon. If we research Optics, research/bulb Astro, and research Guilds, we can then bulb Gunpowder and still have four GPs left. (By that time CS, HBR, and perhaps Paper might well be available via trade, and our GP farming should be about completed, so we could start whipping an army.) Knights, trebs, and some combination of pikes, crossbows, and muskets might be able to take out Darius and Stalin, if they haven't become too advanced. If they have, then we bulb/research Chemistry and get to Steel, either by researching it or by trading for CS and Paper and then bulbing Education to be able to research Liberalism and then take Steel as a free tech.

 

[fractals]

Sadly I continue suffering technical problems, so will be unable to take upon the next turn set, nor execute most programs, lastly including ******** amazon's kindle for PC for the foreseeable future. It's extremely frustrating.

1. Getting 50 x 8 worker turns squeezed into the window between researching Sci Meth and starting Environmentalism

thats 400 worker turns( WT) so we'd better whip as many necessary workers. In case we move to selfdom, then 250 WK will be necessary.

To this eliminating both Darius and Stalin would be quite convenient, so we can whip over much more cities.

each worker may need 2 POP + 2 Ts.

and 25-50 workers may be as much as we may need, so 50-100 POP would be whipped. the peninsula has ¿6 cities? so not enough POP is in there. These mean that going to war with both Darius and Stalin is inevitable if we are to winning this game, let alone this SGOTM.

Biology could be specially useful for whipping in the future cities we rob from said 2 AI, as well as HR for larger POPs.

So our island should be conquered > 5 Ts before we start whipping it mercilessly.

After whipping Then it comes to build those FPreserves in 8Ts+ traveling of workers-> ¿11T? or a little bit more due to that ******* desert moving at 3 tiles /T/worker.

then universal enviro for a couple of Ts


whipping, our biggest hammer and troops source, is useful for warmongering until about rifles & cannons. So we may attack Darius once or before we get to chemistry. I also think that the effort of winning that war may also require for its success that we stop researching and devote completely to creating wealth to support the increasing number of troops and cities.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Had a look at the save and our situation, haven't read through the whole thread yet but will try to do so tonight.

Some thoughts:-

1. Early war is strong but given where we are waiting for Steel and Cannons might be better and a more efficient path.
2. Pretty sure Stalin is plotting on Bismarck, even his -1 hidden relationship modifier shouldn't make us the target.
3. Stalin's favourite civic is State Property so we can't let him reach Communusim or he will never switch except by the UN.
4. Would be good to get the Trireme ready to upgrade, we desperately need to know who / what else is out there.
5. No Vassal States is selected so Conquest will be really, really difficult - are we sure the UN isn't the best option? Agree we need to decide soon.
6. We should whip out the workers then switch to serfdom if at all possible.

--NZ

 

[Cactus Pete]

1. Early war is strong but given where we are waiting for Steel and Cannons might be better and a more efficient path. May well be more efficient, but concerned that it will be slower, nonetheless. Also, will delay captured city gold to finance research.
2. Pretty sure Stalin is plotting on Bismarck, even his -1 hidden relationship modifier shouldn't make us the target. Pleased to hear, but why are you confident?
3. Stalin's favourite civic is State Property so we can't let him reach Communusim or he will never switch except by the UN. Did not know this, but killing him off should solve the problem.
4. Would be good to get the Trireme ready to upgrade, we desperately need to know who / what else is out there. Concur with the need for speed.
5. No Vassal States is selected so Conquest will be really, really difficult - are we sure the UN isn't the best option? I'm not sure, because I never use that approach. Agree we need to decide soon.
6. We should whip out the workers then switch to serfdom if at all possible.

--NZ

Appreciate the input. Like to know your thoughts on best tech/bulb path.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Appreciate the input. Like to know your thoughts on best tech/bulb path.

I'll have a look at that.

Stalin - we're at +3 with him after the hidden modifier and Bismark is at -1 and Annoyed, according to the Civ Illustrated Guide he has a 76% probability of initiating a war of conquest on neighbors whom he is annoyed with. Killing him would certainly solve the State Property issue!
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/page-3#post-11931813
I very rarely go for wars beyond the initial rush but when I do I prefer overwhelming force but I'll be guided by more experienced warmongers

 

[Cactus Pete]

I'll have a look at that.

Stalin - we're at +3 with him after the hidden modifier and Bismark is at -1 and Annoyed, according to the Civ Illustrated Guide he has a 76% probability of initiating a war of conquest on neighbors whom he is annoyed with. And logistics of an overseas campaign or the relative power numbers don't factor in? Killing him would certainly solve the State Property issue!
I very rarely go for wars beyond the initial rush but when I do I prefer overwhelming force but I'll be guided by more experienced warmongers

Concur that we would want superior forces. Might have that with knights, trebs, and muskets, depending on how Darius techs. Take a look at that likelihood, too.

 

[zbgayumn]

I hope we get to Apache in time, it could be too late already. Why do you say that? There are still archers defending. Your concern suggests that we should have a go at the city as soon as we get five units -- 2 twice-promoted swords and 3 chariots -- in place, assuming 3 archers are still defending.

With CRII swords, yes, I would push for the fastest possible attack.

I still think the gold spent on upgrading is worth it. Especially if the trireme has moved to Aspen or Bloodwood where we get a really good head start. And if we can't get it built in time to sail north before Optics is researched?

Well, if it's close, we can just keep the trireme in the build queue without finishing it. Then it will change to a partially-built Caravel and we can whip it.

BTW, it's not possible to bulb Engineering any more. Understood, we would have to have Astro (and Construction) first, and that should be given serious consideration (one bulb and research the rest). Optics has priority and if get that it's Astro, and if we get that it's Sci Meth, and on it goes. Of course Optics is priority, but we can't bulb Sci Meth for a while. So wouldn't Engineering be an option for the next bulb after Astro (if we go for that soon)?

I was thinking Sci Meth is next priority after Astro, but that's only true if we have Printing Press. So, after Astro, Engineering should be possible to bulb.

ZB, we have 2 GSs in hand and plan to create four more (or possibly a GM in place of one of them), for a total of six bulbs. How do you see their best use?

Here's what I'm thinking . . . I'm concerned that we've got to start conquering pretty soon. If we research Optics, research/bulb Astro, and research Guilds, we can then bulb Gunpowder and still have four GPs left. (By that time CS, HBR, and perhaps Paper might well be available via trade, and our GP farming should be about completed, so we could start whipping an army.) Knights, trebs, and some combination of pikes, crossbows, and muskets might be able to take out Darius and Stalin, if they haven't become too advanced. If they have, then we bulb/research Chemistry and get to Steel, either by researching it or by trading for CS and Paper and then bulbing Education to be able to research Liberalism and then take Steel as a free tech.

Liberalism is 1/2 the beakers of Steel, so we should definitely take advantage of that.

We obviously have one bulb for Astro, and 1-2 for Chemistry. Other techs we can spend a bulb on: Paper, Engineering, Education, PP, Gunpowder, Sci Meth.

Paper is too small, Engineering might actually be too small as well. It would be really nice to save 1 bulb for Sci Meth, but I think we need to focus on the rush to Steel. So, 1. Astro, 2. Gunpowder, 3. Chem, 4. Chem, 5. Education, 6. PP.

I suppose we could change PP for Engineering, but that really slows down our progress toward Sci Meth and Medicine.

RE: building an army
If we are going to start with Trebs/Muskets, I think we should actually bypass Darius and attack Stalin. He may have a lot of units, but he probably still won't have Longbows. Once we get Cannons, we can whip out a new wave of attackers and converge on Persepolis. Not the best situation from a maintenance cost perspective, but if we try to attack LBs on a hill (Bactra and Persepolis) our army is going to be decimated before it gets through 3 cities.

 

[zbgayumn]

Concur that we would want superior forces. Might have that with knights, trebs, and muskets, depending on how Darius techs. Take a look at that likelihood, too.

Re: Knights
How are we getting horses back? I suppose we might get a trade involving Dye, but that assumes Darius still has the extra horse available...

 

[Cactus Pete]

With CRII swords, yes, I would push for the fastest possible attack. Then that's the plan.

I still think the gold spent on upgrading is worth it. Especially if the trireme has moved to Aspen or Bloodwood where we get a really good head start. Well, if it's close, we can just keep the trireme in the build queue without finishing it. Then it will change to a partially-built Caravel and we can whip it. Are you sure about that? In Vanilla, galley production does not automatically switch to Galleon (even though you can make the upgrade), and, logically, triremes shouldn't switch to caravels, as they have different uses.

BTW, it's not possible to bulb Engineering any more. Understood, we would have to have Astro (and Construction) first, and that should be given serious consideration (one bulb and research the rest). Optics has priority and if get that it's Astro, and if we get that it's Sci Meth, and on it goes. Of course Optics is priority, but we can't bulb Sci Meth for a while. So wouldn't Engineering be an option for the next bulb after Astro (if we go for that soon)?

I was thinking Sci Meth is next priority after Astro, but that's only true if we have Printing Press. So, after Astro, Engineering should be possible to bulb. Check.

Liberalism is 1/2 the beakers of Steel, so we should definitely take advantage of that. Basically concur, but not sure about the definiteness. There are other techs we'll need -- e.g. Biology, Medicine -- that are worth more than Steel that could conceivably be worth the wait, if the risk of another CIV getting there first isn't too great.

We obviously have one bulb for Astro, and 1-2 for Chemistry. Astro is 3100, Chemistry is only 2800, so if we spend 2 GS, it should be on Astro.. Other techs we can spend a bulb on: Paper, Engineering, Education, PP, Gunpowder, Sci Meth.

Paper is too small, Engineering might actually be too small as well. It would be really nice to save 1 bulb for Sci Meth, but I think we need to focus on the rush to Steel. So, 1. Astro, 2. Gunpowder, 3. Chem, 4. Chem, 5. Education, 6. PP.

I suppose we could change PP for Engineering, but that really slows down our progress toward Sci Meth and Medicine. The difference between researching Engineering and PP is not that great (about 500 beakers, IIRC), and we should be getting gold from off-continent tech trades by the time we get to PP, so bulbing Engineering might actually speed us up.

RE: building an army
If we are going to start with Trebs/Muskets, Can't build trebs without Engineering, so not sure what you're advocating here. I think we should actually bypass Darius and attack Stalin. He may have a lot of units, but he probably still won't have Longbows. Once we get Cannons, we can whip out a new wave of attackers and converge on Persepolis. Not the best situation from a maintenance cost perspective, but if we try to attack LBs on a hill (Bactra and Persepolis) our army is going to be decimated before it gets through 3 cities.

Like that tactic, depending on their relative strengths when we are ready to fight.

Re knights and the need for horses: I'm expecting one of the off-continent Civs to also be a possibility for horse trading. We may well have whales to trade by the time we finish Guilds.

Also, I just noticed that in BtS we can get grenadiers cheaper than we can get cannons. If the other Civs are not that advanced militarily, then that's an option to consider. Grens are very effective units.

Further discussion and NZ's input needed, but it would seem that there is no issue regarding completing Optics. Should I go ahead and play to that point, attacking Apache ASAP and building a trireme after forge in WPB?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Further discussion and NZ's input needed, but it would seem that there is no issue regarding completing Optics. Should I go ahead and play to that point, attacking Apache ASAP and building a trireme after forge in WPB?

Green from me.

 

[Zhary]

Just a friendly reminder that there's 20 days left. Good luck!

 

[fractals]

Like that tactic, depending on their relative strengths when we are ready to fight.

Re knights and the need for horses: I'm expecting one of the off-continent Civs to also be a possibility for horse trading. We may well have whales to trade by the time we finish Guilds.

Also, I just noticed that in BtS we can get grenadiers cheaper than we can get cannons. If the other Civs are not that advanced militarily, then that's an option to consider. Grens are very effective units.

Further discussion and NZ's input needed, but it would seem that there is no issue regarding completing Optics. Should I go ahead and play to that point, attacking Apache ASAP and building a trireme after forge in WPB?

Green

 

[zbgayumn]

Yes, go ahead and finish Optics.