SGOTM Ideas

[CommandoBob]

I'm not sure what you guys are cooking up here. If only a few people are interested in your particular ideas it may be better to just run a simple SG.

Actually, I think that is what we are trying to do. Broadly speaking, we're looking to create an SGOTM that doesn't require much to get it up and going. Nothing fancy; just a basic game with a twist.

If it's a game you want me to build for a multi-team SGOTM, then you'll need to make it very simple and straightforward for me. I am a "bear of very little brain".

We'll try to keep this one simple as some of us (I hope) work on scenarios for future SGOTMs.

If it requires that I spend my life policing all the team saves manually in order to enforce your constraints, such as detecting that someone has killed a civ when they shouldn't, then I am not enthusiastic.

And you shouldn't be, either.

Since the idea (so far) is to have the most AIs alive at the Domination limit, having an in-house rule not to eliminate an AI is a bit much, in addition to being a time-killer to administer.

If a team feels the need to eliminate an AI, let them. No penalty, as in a normal game. Except that the team will not know if that was a good decision until the end.

If it needs a lot of fiddling with game rules, then it will be outside my abilities to create it alone. However, if the rules you want can be built into a scenario, then I guess someone could create a scenario file that I could use to create a map to meet your requirements.

No fiddling with the game rules.

As far as game parameters:
An unknown number of AI (that is, you know, but we don't)
Archipelago, 60% water
Standard map size
Difficulty: Demi-God
Full 540 turns
AIs do not respawn
Team plays as Portugal (EXP and SEA) (?)
Domination Victory, but the others turned on also.
Winner: The most AIs alive at Domination. AIs count first, Domination serves as tie-breaker. So, Team A has 15 AIs alive at 500 AD when they dominate; Team B has 20 alive at 600 AD when they dominate. Team B gets the victory.

 

[AlanH]

Thanks for the clarification

That looks like a specification I can go with. Is that what the rest of the peanut gallery want?

Some other issues I've picked up from the discussion ...

Do you want something done about suicide galleys? (I'm not sure whether sinking probability is a scenario parameter, but I could make it that galleys can't enter ocean at all).

Differential naval movement, Mediterranean resources and other SGOTM mod stuff?

I assume SGLs would be OFF. What about MGLs?

 

[CommandoBob]

Some other issues I've picked up from the discussion ...

Do you want something done about suicide galleys? (I'm not sure whether sinking probability is a scenario parameter, but I could make it that galleys can't enter ocean at all).

Well, I think that depends on the map. But for an Archipelago world, that should not be a problem (at least, from what I've heard/seen/read here at the forum).

Differential naval movement, Mediterranean resources and other SGOTM mod stuff?

Yes, please, to all three! (I forgot about them.)

I assume SGLs would be OFF. What about MGLs?

For me, ON.

Portugal
I was looking for a Civ that was not SCI or REL (cheaper culture producing buildings that expand the borders) or MIL (since a lot of fighting would take place) or AGI (spamming settlers). I wanted a Civ that didn't have any built in advantages to a Domination victory.

That left America, France, England, Hittites, Portugal and Carthage. The SGOTMs have already played America (08), Engand (10) and Carthage (02?). Of the three left, only Portugal is SEA, a trait that should do well on an Archipelago map.

 

[eldar]

I think a 60% 'pelago will be fine - generally these are fully navigable with curraghs, especially for a seafaring Civ.

 

[I. Larkin]

Well, I think that depends on the map. But for an Archipelago world, that should not be a problem (at least, from what I've heard/seen/read here at the forum).

Yes, please, to all three! (I forgot about them.)


Portugal
I was looking for a Civ that was not SCI or REL (cheaper culture producing buildings that expand the borders) or MIL (since a lot of fighting would take place) or AGI (spamming settlers). I wanted a Civ that didn't have any built in advantages to a Domination victory.

That left America, France, England, Hittites, Portugal and Carthage. The SGOTMs have already played America (08), Engand (10) and Carthage (02?). Of the three left, only Portugal is SEA, a trait that should do well on an Archipelago map.

Agree with that. Portugal will make knowlege of the world faster.
Although it is not that difficult to trase if human player kill AI or not and I belive we are honest enough to play AWD, say, without "false peace" we may remove this restriction.
We may debate probability of sink and MGL. But to minimize Alan's hassel we may leave things as in normal game. We may debate Victory condition, but again, for simplicity better leave Domination only. I don't know how difficult to put Pickmen to AI at the start, but civ_steve do it on regular basis.

SGTOM 14. Humanity variant​

Second draft.

1) Story and aim: We play to Domination and team win the SGTOM14 is that left most AIs alive.
If two or more teams have the same amount of AIs at the end of the game then fastest team has a victory.
If turns number is also equal then Jason score is a criterium.

Turns limit is 300; not to make SGTOM 1 year long.

2) To reduce random factors (to be discussed):
a) All AI’s start with bonus Pickman
b) No Sci Leaders
c) Remote AIs start at isolated Islands.

3) Map: (Instruction to AlanH, but he can make some surprises):
Archipelago, 60% water, standard size.
Climate normal, the rest is random.
Big Island of 400-600 tiles approximately is at the center of the map.
We and 2 -4 others AIs start at central Island.
Starting position has to be good: River, Cow, at least one Luxury nearby. AIs number: the more the better, something like 20-30,
but “random number” for convenient placement.

4) Difficulty level is the Demigod, but if extra obstacles are enforced it may be the Emperor.

5) Our Civ: Portugal.

 

[Othniel]

Maybe it is just me, but I don't really like the idea of "most AI alive at victory" being the main condition for winning. It seems a bit hollow.

Flip risk has has been mentioned as the main reason to kill off an AI civ. Ok. But I'm skeptical. In my high-level games, I raze 99% of the cities I capture. It makes flip risk a moot point and I want the slaves. Plus, replacing razed cities is not at all hard if you have good settler factories or better, tons of specialist farms making settlers. The main reason I keep any AI cities is if they have a nice wonder. So I'm not seeing flip risk as a huge speed bump on the way to a domination victory because the rewards of razing are usually higher than the rewards of keeping a city.

What, then, is the big incentive for teams to kill off an AI civ? Sure, eliminating flip risk is nice, but potentially lose the whole game because you took out one civ?

I think it is likely that all the teams will have all the AI's alive at their victory date, making this victory condition pointless. Worse, even with the bonus starting Pikemen or whatever, an AI gets bumped off early by another AI before you can gift the victim a city, and that is the sole cause for a team to lose the game. Or even more worse, a team wins the game 100 turns after the other teams but wins overall because they kept one more AI alive than the rest. Scenario 3 is a little farfetched but winning that way would seem very hollow and not skill-based.

So, to sum up my thoughts, keeping all the AI alive is an quality variant that makes for some really exciting in-game moments. But making it the main victory condition? I'm less convinced.

In case this comes across too critically, let me just say I think the ideas are on the right track. You guys are floating good thoughts. I wish I had a more constructive alternative idea to offer, but all I can think about at the moment is that I'd prefer to ditch the "Keep AI Alive VC". Maybe I'll go take a late lunch, grab some fresh air, and hope for some inspiration.

 

[Paul#42]

I like it.

Not sure if a turn limit is necessary.
But I'd like my team (If I get those guys together again) to stay below 300 turns anyway so no problem with it.

15 to 20 AI civs would be enough for me, but 25 is also okay.
But the less civs the bigger the chance to keep all of them alive.

One major problem I see (especially with many civs):
I think a team that "loses" an AI civ will be deeply disappointed because they are likely to lose, no matter how fast they are.
Could we find a rule to impose a bearable penalty on those poor fellas? Like 20 turns per lost civ? Quite a margin if we look back at recent SGotms, so it's quite a tough penalty and still encouraging to play on in case of bad luck.

 

[DWetzel]

I think that is a very good idea, had exactly the same thought before reading your post. 10 turns popped into my head as a fair number. The "right" number is one that makes a team not want to do it but MIGHT offer a strategic benefit. 5 strikes me as too few, 10 is probably close to right.

Maybe score by Jason scores with finishing date adjusted accordingly?

 

[I. Larkin]

Can anybody just copied and correct my list of rules to have a "final draft" for Alan's approuval"? Certanly, traditional SGTOM win like "fastest domination" with 15-20 turns penalty for 1 AI lost is a bes compromise we can acheave...

 

[CommandoBob]

A known number of AI determined by AlanH or one of his cronies and revealed on the sign up thread or initial team thread.
Archipelago, 60% water
Standard map size
Map details are to be decided by His Deviousness, AlanH (or a crony)
Difficulty: Demi-God
Full 540 turns (which probably won't be needed)
AIs do not respawn
Differential naval movement
Mediterranean resources
Other standard SGOTM mods
No SGLs
Yes on MGLs
Team plays as Portugal (EXP and SEA)
Domination Victory, but the others turned on also.
Winner: Earliest Domination Victory but for each AI lost in a team's game (regardless of who kills the AI) 10 turns are added to their game and that becomes their final end date.

 

[AlanH]

I'll apply my devious best/worst to the above in the next day or three. If I get into any trouble with it I'll come back for advice or assistance, but otherwise, hope to see a sign-up thread in a week's time.

 

[nerovats]

could also make it a penallty of say 10 turns for every civ lost. That would need some debate in some teams. Is it worth eliminating a couple of civ's? Will the team get over 30 turns faster, then when they leave 3 civs alive. This might take away Othniel's concern. Also helps, if another AI kills a civ befroe you can help, it does not mean the game is lost, as I'd expect at least 1 team will be able to keep them all in the game.

 

[AlanH]

could also make it a penallty of say 10 turns for every civ lost.

Isn't that what the following means?

Winner: Earliest Domination Victory but for each AI lost in a team's game (regardless of who kills the AI) 10 turns are added to their game and that becomes their final end date.

 

[Paul#42]

I guess he did not read the most recent posts here
- or it took him so long to write that post

 

[I. Larkin]

SGTOM 14. Humanity variant​

Final draft for AlanH approuval..

1) Story and aim: We play to fastest Domination (66% land and 66% population)
and team win the SGTOM14 is that left most AIs alive.
Penalty for AI lost is 10 turns..
Final Score is 10*AIN - TN, where TN is the number of turns in submited file (after domination won) and
AIN is the number of AIs that alive in submited file.

If two or more teams have the same score of AIs at the end of the game then most AIN team has a victory.
If AIN is also equal then Jason score is a criterium.

Turns limit is 540.

2) To reduce random factors
a) All AI’s start with bonus Pickman (to be discussed or AlanH decison):
b) No Sci Leaders
c) Remote AIs start at isolated Islands.

3) Map: ( AlanH can make some surprises):
Archipelago, 60% water, standard size.
Climate normal, the rest is random.
Big Island of 400-600 tiles approximately is at the center of the map.
We and 2 -4 others AIs start at central Island.
Starting position has to be good: River, Cow, at least one Luxury nearby.
AIs number: the more the better, something like 20-30,
but “random number” for convenient placement.

4) Difficulty level is the Demigod.

5) Our Civ: Portugal.

 

[Paul#42]

10 turns penalty is too little, I think. My "best bet" is 17. I repeat what CB said...

If we start with 20+ AI I'd consider 10 a good number. Most of the "recent" SGotms were decided by a few turns iirc.

2) c) Remote AIs start at isolated Islands.

I finally understand what this means.
I'm not too happy with it - unless there are some seafaring civs and they are only devided by shallow waters so at least some of them meet each other early for a decent tech pace

The rest is really fine with me, I think this can be a challenging variant.

 

[I. Larkin]

If we start with 20+ AI I'd consider 10 a good number. Most of the "recent" SGotms were decided by a few turns iirc.

I finally understand what this means.
I'm not too happy with it - unless there are some seafaring civs and they are only devided by shallow waters so at least some of them meet each other early for a decent tech pace

The rest is really fine with me, I think this can be a challenging variant.

I am affraid, that penalty 10 turns only will drive hummanity out. To klii AI is so benefitial that many teams may decide to kill them "on purpose". If we put 10 turns may be we restore policy that only another AI may kill AI? It is easy to prove via screenshot...

I meant VERY REMOTE AI, that have chance to kill each other before we even meet them...

 

[Paul#42]

I am affraid, that penalty 10 turns only will drive hummanity out. To klii AI is so benefitial that many teams may decide to kill them "on purpose".

That's what I'd like, it may pay off. Tough to calculate.
I don't want to protect AI no matter what. If their vanishing will have such an impact on our victory date - so be it
If we chose that number too high, it's likely the same as having no penalty - you won't recover from losing an AI tribe.

If we put 10 turns may be we restore policy that only another AI may kill AI? It is easy to prove via screenshot...

I'd like to avoid that (little) extra effort.

I meant VERY REMOTE AI, that have chance to kill each other before we even meet them...

I know. But very isolated AI tend to be researching (under heavy load from unit support) HBR while others are in the Middle Ages...
You might end up losing them to frigates and galleons equipped tribes...

But I admit: It's tough to grant the survival of an AI tribe...

 

[CommandoBob]

You might end up losing them to frigates and galleons equipped tribes...

But I admit: It's tough to grant the survival of an AI tribe...

If no other AIs were SEA, that would reduce the chance of a rouge civ going ballastic out in the boonies. Not eliminate that chance, just reduce it.

AI vs. AI
While it is hard to predict, I do expect that in each team's game an AI will kill an AI. I don't think it will be same AI vs. AI combination in each game, however. So I do think that will balance itself out. The 'fun' part comes in keeping the AIs alive and not killing each other.

Is the 10 Turn penalty the 'correct' amount? I don't know. It feels right, but it may not be right. The only we'll know it is to play it out.

 

[I. Larkin]

If no other AIs were SEA, that would reduce the chance of a rouge civ going ballastic out in the boonies. Not eliminate that chance, just reduce it.

AI vs. AI
While it is hard to predict, I do expect that in each team's game an AI will kill an AI. I don't think it will be same AI vs. AI combination in each game, however. So I do think that will balance itself out.
Is the 10 Turn penalty the 'correct' amount? I don't know. It feels right, but it may not be right. The only we'll know it is to play it out.

Indeed. Let's try 10. I'll change my post 75 accordinaly.