SGOTM4 - Team Ivan

[AdrianE]

Preturn

Trades
Ivory to Rome for Wool and 49G
Republic to Babylon for Construstion, Polytheism and 83G
Poly to Persia for Furs, Horses and 6G
Rep to Germany for 41G
Math to india for 14G
Poly to Ottomans for 29G
Republic to Greece for 35G
Poly to Rome for 3G and 7GPT

set research to 100% for currency in 2
change production in Leptis (temple), theveste (temple) and Carthage(courthouse)

press enter
IBT Rome complains about our troops

1. 330BC move galleys
IBT learn currency -> engineering

2. 310BC Switch Cartgage , Utica and leptis to Marketplace
IBT spot Roman boat and Indian boat heading to our north

3. 290BC disband 1 warrior

4. 270BC disband 1 warrior
IBT Indians found Kolhapur in our territory
Carthage - Market -> horseman
Leptis market -> Temple
Theveste Temple -> market

5. 250Bc - nothing

6. 230BC Carthage - horse -> horse

7. 210BC nothing

8. 190BC Hippo Harbor -> temple
Utica market-> harbor

9. 170BC sell spices to Rome for 27G and 2GPT

10. 150BC wounded galley spots dark green border (must be Celts)

Persia and India have contacted Rome.
Engineering is due in 1 turn. I held off on selling currency until we got engineering so we could immediately trade for monotheism when the scientific civs get it.

I irrigated some land around Utica to promote growth. I started a massive irrigation project to bring water to Hippo and Theveste so they can grow. Hippo needs the three grasslands in its radius irrigated. Theveste needs a aquaduct.

 

[dcstevez]

Things are starting to get interesting.

Before we go any farther (I think I'm next) I'd like to know if we're going the top or bottom route on tech. Are we going for science for sure as we discussed? This is our last chance to choose a militaristic route and go towards military tradition and cavalry.

I personally feel we are on the correct road planning to go for the science and diplomacy route. If anyone feels up to it, we need to start planning a pre-build for the copernicus observatory.

 

[rrau]

I still prefer the science route. Will we beeline to Education and from there to ToG and try to trade for other techs?

 

[TheNemesis666]

I reckon education as well, uni's will be nice with limited cities.

 

[I. Larkin]

Preturn

Trades
Ivory to Rome for Wool and 49G
Republic to Babylon for Construstion, Polytheism and 83G
Poly to Persia for Furs, Horses and 6G
???Rep to Germany for 41G
???Math to india for 14G
???Poly to Ottomans for 29G
???Republic to Greece for 35G
???Poly to Rome for 3G and 7GPT

2) I irrigated some land around Utica to promote growth. I started a massive irrigation project to bring water to Hippo and Theveste so they can grow. Hippo needs the three grasslands in its radius irrigated. Theveste needs a aquaduct.

??? trades: What for??? This is a plain gift!!!. For examle we could trade Republic for MONOTHEISM... I think conquest might be fastest option to win. It is lot easer to do when AI's thechnologically backward. Or we want Diplo? I think, anyway better to capture Rome. We may do it with LB (Invention). Hippo is disposable City, we will have to abonded it when capture Rome. (Workers for Ivory Colonies).
When we get Engineering we can plant/cut forest arond Hippo, and produce workers from Hippo (instead of Temple). The same operation can be done with all mined grasslands that we going to irrigate. Also, we can use workers to grow Utica.
Land around Carthage should be forest/ mined when it grow to size 12. I think war with Rome will be at around 20 turns from now. TGL in Rome might be ready at this time.
Regards, Ivan.

 

[I. Larkin]

Things are starting to get interesting.

Before we go any farther (I think I'm next) I'd like to know if we're going the top or bottom route on tech. Are we going for science for sure as we discussed? This is our last chance to choose a militaristic route and go towards military tradition and cavalry.

I personally feel we are on the correct road planning to go for the science and diplomacy route. If anyone feels up to it, we need to start planning a pre-build for the copernicus observatory.

You are next. I think we have to combine military/sciense approach. Better to capture Rome to benefite from TGL or, at least, not let them benefite from it. Correct tech route is Feudalism->Invention, and we will see next. Copernicus City is Cartage, so we need some wonder to prebuild. Will think more, when see save.
Ivan

 

[AdrianE]

Ivan

I am having a hard time understanding what you want us to do. In post 79 you say make more trades and now you are saying I shouldn't have traded what I did.

Please explain your ideas more clearly. Take some time and communicate *exactly* and *in detail* what you are thinking and planning.

Basically I traded for as much cash as I could get to finance 80 to 100% research. Our economy can not support high research. Furthermore trading republic for 2 techs is a good deal in my books. I then traded it away to whoever had cash that might have been able to buy it from Babylon. We might as well benefit not Babylon.

Adrian

 

[I. Larkin]

Adrian,
I think first 4 trades was OK, but the rest cuold wait for future for better deal. It is difficult compromise to trade or not. Personally, I think 50% of price is OK, but 14g for Math is too little. BTW, did Romans payed normal price for Polytheism or you stop at "they never accept this deal?" In this case we may save Ivory (offer Poly instead: Now we bound for 19 turns...)
Resonable to have embassy with Babs to see their contacts.
Also, Mad-Bax said that only Babs Scintific at our game. What about Greeks, Persia and Germans? I think we may wait for trade Currency to see situation to have more money from this trade. What do you think about Sci/Military ballance?
Edit I cant make detailed instruction for any step, in fact you loose not too much gold I think.

 

[dcstevez]

Ok, I've played my turns.

150 Pre-turn: Change Hippo to Market, change leptis to archers

I think Ivan is correct that longbows is our best bet for an offensive unit because we don't have access to any iron. Disband some warriors to save cash.

IBT: Engineering -> Feudalism in 8 turns.

1) 130BC: deal with greeks, currency for 8 and germans currency for 15 then engineering for monotheism. Change Carthage to Cathedral: will allow for end of luxury use = 12gpt and increase culture expansion.

2) 110BC: Leptis: Archer -> Archer

Contact Keltoi who have nothing and no trade route... way behind in tech.

IBT Romans start great wall in Veii, still building great library in rome
(We should consider checking on how close library is to complete before starting war with Rome).

3) 90BC: Move units

4) 70BC: Leptis: Archer ->Archer

IBT Athens completes great wall

5) 50BC: move units

6) 30BC: Leptis Archer ->Archer

7) 10BC: Utica Harbor ->Temple

IBT: Feudalism ->Invention in 11 turns Science to 70% = -13gpt

8) 10AD: Carthage: Cathedral -> Archer Lux to 0% = -1gpt
Leptis Archer ->Archer

9) 30AD: Carthage: Archer ->Archer

IBT lost horse & furs

10) 50AD: Trade Persia construction for furs, horses & 24gold... no gpt.

Set science to 60%, Lux 0% invention in 10 turns, +4gpt.
We need to have cash to upgrade archers when invention completes and then attack Rome. That should start our golden age shortly and then we'll proceed to the tech route. Carthage should start a pre-build soon assuming golden age will increase tech pace giving astronomy in approximately 30 turns.

 

[dcstevez]

Ok, I cross posted with Ivan.

I believe that Babylon is actually NOT scientific in this game. I traded currency to Greek and Germans and they did get monotheism immediately. I guess we could have waited to get monotheism but I wanted a cathedral and I'm hoping one of them will research theology for us.

 

[I. Larkin]

Ok, I've played my turns.

150 Pre-turn: Change Hippo to Market, change leptis to archers

I think Ivan is correct that longbows is our best bet for an offensive unit because we don't have access to any iron. Disband some warriors to save cash.

IBT: Engineering -> Feudalism in 8 turns.

1) 130BC: deal with greeks, currency for 8 and germans currency for 15 then engineering for monotheism. Change Carthage to Cathedral: will allow for end of luxury use = 12gpt and increase culture expansion.

We need to have cash to upgrade archers when invention completes and then attack Rome. That should start our golden age shortly and then we'll proceed to the tech route. Carthage should start a pre-build soon assuming golden age will increase tech pace giving astronomy in approximately 30 turns.

I think trade currency may wait for 8 turns at least. To be first at Copernicus we have to delay their Sciense....

 

[mad-bax]

Note: All the civs have their original correct traits, except Babylon. Greeks, Ottomans, Persians and Germans are all scientific, only the Babylonians are not.

 

[rrau]

got it....

 

[rrau]

It was my day off, so went ahead and played

>>>THE SAVE<<<

preturn (50ad)

looks good

ibt: carthage archer => archer (only prebuild for SunTzu's is due in 29turns - will complete before we get astronomy)

turn 1 (70ad)

Move workers to start irrigating in Leptis Magna after they finished roading/mining a mountain - not growing much anymore

ibt: Carthage archer => archer, Leptis Magna archer=> cathedral

turn 2 (90ad)

irrigate in Leptis Magna

ibt: Carthage archer => archer, Utica temple => rax

turn 3 (110ad)

more irrigation in Leptis Magna

ibt: Carthge archer => archer

turn 4 (130ad)

move workers to start mining mountain in Leptis Magna

ibt: Carthage archer => archer; Rome completes Great Library

turn 5 (150ad)

not much

ibt: Carthage archer => archer; Theveste aquaduct => rax

turn 6 (170ad)

mining around Carthage

ibt: Carthage archer => archer; Utica rax => cathedral

turn 7 (190ad)

have 3rd ivory hooked up (border expanded) but no one to trade it with except Persia (knows monarchy - the only tech we're down, but we don't need it)

ibt: Carthage archer => archer

turn 8 (210ad)

foresting around Hippo

ibt: Carthage archer => archer

turn 9 (230ad)

not much

ibt: Carthage archer => archer; Theveste rax => horse; Hippo market => worker

turn 10 (250ad)

not much


Notes:

We have 20 archers and compared to Rome our military is "average" so after upgrades, we should be better than them

We complete Invention on this ibt

We can cancel our trade agreement with Rome at any time

I didn't start a prebuild for Copernicus as SunTzu now completes in 28 turns, which I think would be too soon once our GA starts

Firaxis 385, Jason 505

 

[I. Larkin]

Dear All, I think it is time to decide finally about victory condition. Let's look at things realisically. All AIs Technologically bacward and have no money to support our research. If we decide Diplo win we have to research all Industrial Techs and Fusion ourself. With 5 Cities only it will take 600 turns approximately. Also it is a risk to loose UN vote at Diplo. Conquest, I think it will take 180 turns maximum. If we want to win this competition and avoid wooden spoon we MUST consider Conquest as a victory condition. I think, however Copernicus will help to research faster, but Newton will appear too late to help.
I think I will star war with Romans NOW. I am sure, that 20 LB will capture Rome, but I'll ignore TGL and will go to Theology-Education-Astronomy route. We also have to decide will we kill Romans at this war or let them sometime alive (I see no reason...). Also we have to build some fleet and decide who is next target...

 

[I. Larkin]

Ok, I cross posted with Ivan.

I believe that Babylon is actually NOT scientific in this game. I traded currency to Greek and Germans and they did get monotheism immediately. I guess we could have waited to get monotheism but I wanted a cathedral and I'm hoping one of them will research theology for us.

I see. I think, however that they are hopeless and we have to research Theology ourself.

 

[rrau]

I admit I am surprised at how slow the AI research has been in this game. However, this is my first 5cc and I'm unsure about making it a conquest victory condition just because I've never played a 5cc before. If the rest of the team votes to try for conquest I'm willing to try it.

I agree about eliminating Rome

If we go the conquest route, after Astronomy, I think we need to research Military Tradition

 

[dcstevez]

I am interested in conquering the world. Perhaps Persia and India should be our LAST targets because they are the only civs we can trade with to get horses. I haven't looked closely but I think that we can't get any other trade routes until navigation. Last time I checked none of the mainland civs had any harbors anyway.


I think we might want to research banking right away after astronomy so that we'll have the extra cash to support our troops and a faster tech pace. On the other hand, getting gunpowder soon is important so we know wether or not we'll have access to it and progress directly to military tradition. I would vote for banking but I think reasonable people could differ.

One interesting alternative would be to gift Persia and India to education and try to get them to research banking and the other top side techs. They are kind of stuck on that island without much room to expand so we should still be able to conquer them in the end. Of course, if they get navigation or astronomy it could be a big problem of them settling the spaces we empty.

 

[rrau]

I just remembered there's at least one one tile island settled out there so we are going to need to remember to ask for that in a peace treaty before it becomes that civ's captial.

 

[I. Larkin]

Here is the save. I'll write turlog shortly. I think research route might be Education->Astronomy>Gunpowder to see do we have Saltpeter. We may research navigation next if we want trade without restriction. Also it let us trade WM, to know land better. We should place Romans workers around Ivory not let India/Persia settle nearby. Persia agrees to trade Horses or Fur+gold for Ivory. Not sure, we need it now. May be we Declare them and ask India for alliance? [It is bad idea, just for discussion].