Shadow Game - First Time at Monarch

[OldDude]

OK, I think it's time for me to give Monarch a go. When I first started posting here I was playing at Warlord level so there has been improvement, moving through Noble and then Prince. But, I'm not winning at Prince every time, or they are super long games. So I'm thinking maybe I should try to move up to try to hone the finer points in an effort to get better.

With that said, I rolled a Pangea map with normal speed/settings. No huts or events. I got Frederick as my leader.

Spoiler The Start :

I'm thinking about moving my scout either to the PH 1N of the settler, or 1NW to see what opens up and go from there for his 2nd time move.

For settling, I see coast W/SW. I've got a few river tiles, pigs, but otherwise not much food. I doubt there will be another food special in my BFC where I stand. So I'm thinking of moving my settler 1N to settle on the PH for the added hammer. I won't lose anything I can see at this point.

I'll wait to do anything until some advice comes in.

Thanks all!

 

[lymond]

I think settling 1N on the PH is THE goto move here. You see enough of the land that the scout would not factor much one way or another on that decision. It already looks like a nice spot with ph center tile, at least pigs for food, visible grass rivers, and what looks like rivers north in the fog.

The only other possible option maybe is the PH 1S of the scout, although it is coastal and I'm unlikely to move there regardless with such a good visible spot already. But moving the 1SW will reveal the area, or just start moving him NW as you say.

Settler can step 1NE first and then onto PH...always do that if moving onto a hill to settle, if the movement is free.

AH seems obvious, of course - you do start wtih Hunting. But note any other resources first before deciding. Post after you settle.

A bit surprised that you've been struggling on Prince, but moving up to Monarch will force a little more focus on decision making which should allow you to fine tune your game. Here we need to focus more on strong worker management, making better tech decisions, expanding faster and using the whip...all while being cognizant of and developing an economy. Great People will be even more important..and well..you have a Philo leader.

 

[Fish Man]

100% move settler 1N and settle there if scout finds nothing else. As well as the PH hammer bonus, you claim more river tiles, might get an extra resource or two, AND reduce the risk of killing seafood as you are somewhat near the coast.

 

[krikav]

I think that the only thing that would make me not settle 1N is if there is some really nice resource 2E 1S of settlers position.
That tile can be revealed by either moving the scout up that PH, or probbly better: moving settler 1E first.
If there IS something nice there, settling 1E on turn0 is still an option, and it gains alot of river compared to SiP.

Hold of commiting to a tech until T5.
I would say AH first is most likely, but if alot of grains is revealed until T5, going agriculture first could be best.

 

[OldDude]

Thanks all. I'm glad what I was thinking was the same as you. @lymond that was a good tip on using the free settler move, which I did, and then settled on the PH. I moved the scout 2S as I wanted to see if there was any sea resources there that might be a good first city spot.

Spoiler I think I've got a pretty decent start :

Settling on the PH revealed wet rice, plus a FP. Not a whole lot of forest (5) so my chopping opportunities won't be much but overall I think this is a pretty decent start.

For tech decisions, I already have mining so I'm thinking either AG > AH > BW, or maybe it's better to go AG > BW? That way I could mine the pigs until AH is in.

To my SW I've got two clams. I'm thinking a city should go right where the scout is standing? PH plus it claims the two clams.

Worker build started.

Holding here for now.

Thanks!

 

[Fippy]

I would think AH is still good (after Agri), with the hunting 20% discount.
5f Rice is nice, but not that stellar and forests for bw seem limited (5?).

 

[krikav]

@OldDude
Excellent reasoning around techpath.

With that rice I would absolutely go agri first.
AH after that is no doubt tempting as it's always nice to see where horses are, and 5F1H (pasture hillpigs) is way better than 2F3H (mined pigs).
AH also have the benefit of opening up the path toward writing.
I would be leaning slightly toward Agri->AH here, but Agri->BW is also completely ok.

If postponing TW, you can place a city 2N of the rice and would get river connection right away. (It's close to the jungle though).
The location your scout is standing at does look like a good location for a city, it doesn't have much helper potential, but it would also possibly lighthouse-charge that lake which is nice (cheap ORG lighthouse too).
However, it's location doesn't look like it would be contested, so I would like to see more of the river in the SE to see if there is some other urgent spot to settle there.

 

[lymond]

Yep, I too think AG>AH is a good move here with the Hunt bonus. Might as well max the food. If my thinking is correct, it should time about right..maybe a turn or two from completing rice. Not that this tile matters much, but you can step > put turn into plains farm > improve rice > step 1SW >put another turn into plains farm > step on Pigs. Again, plains farm is rather irrelevant but it helps ingrain getting the most out of worker turns.

I think Mining>BW next but maybe TW if horses pop up in BFC. Too soon to tell.

Scout spot is indeed a city, but as krikav mentioned, may not be a priority. Le't's see what the land shows us.

Circle around Berlin with your scout to get a good view of city spots and resources.

 

[OldDude]

Great feedback everybody. I'll go AG > AH instead of AG > BW > AH since @Fippy's point about only 5 forests makes sense and you all agree. @lymond, great tip on that worker micro so that turns are not wasted. This is the level that I want to get where it is 2nd nature.

I should be able to get back to it for a little bit tonight. While the worker is building I'll trace around my cap to see what else is around, keeping in mind @krikav's point about that city spot may not be an early priority.

Thanks!

 

[OldDude]

Alright, I've played 20 turns. This many because there were essentially no decisions that needed to be made in that time. So now AG and AH are in. Worker has improved rice and put 2 turns into that plains farm. He is poised to start improving the pigs next turn. First warrior out next turn. Sadly, no horses in what I can see of the map. I've got BW teching next, but no turns have gone into it yet. With no horses in my immediate vicinity it's probably wise to see if there is any copper nearby as soon as possible.

I think I should build warriors until my pop is 4, then switch to settler. After the worker is done with the pigs, I plan to pre-chop some forest until they can be put into settlers and workers, since I can't build cottages or do anything else really yet. Maybe finish that farm.

EDIT: Oops! I can't pre-chop until BW is in so definitely finish that farm and then...

Spoiler T20 :

Looking ahead, I've marked 3 spots I think are good city spots.

City 1: River-instant trade route. 3 FP-sharing one with Berlin. 4 forest for chopping. Will need border pop for fish.
City 2: PH. Pigs, 2 ivory, plus fish with border pop.
City 3: Pigs, dye and nanners with border pop.

I will need IW to improve those pigs and of course calendar for the dye and nanners.

Thoughts obviously welcome! Holding here for now. Thanks!

 

[lymond]

I'd like to hear your logic on City 1 that you have marked. What does that city do for you now?

edit: okay..for some reason I overlooked your explanations above. I see a bit of logic now in your City1 locale, but I think the spot I described below is stronger now.

The jungle pigs area NW does not interest me much - unless copper is there - for some time. It is otherwise just dead weight.

Bit of an odd map..well not odd necessarily ..with all that jungle.

Anyway, I recommend you try to start using the logic of trying to settle closer to the cap - overlapping cities and sharing tiles. Start thinking about what that means and how to make it work.

Right now, I lean toward settling one of the plains hills just E of Berlin. Either one probably is fine, although I like that the N PH shares the FP for cottage help later, as well as still covering one of Berlin's grass river tiles. Ofc, it can share rice eventually, and in the far future one day have some pork for supper. Also, benefit of some extra early happiness.

I think start a settler at size 3 after one or two warriors complete. I think worker can move to PH NE of Berlin to mine. Yes, mines not great early, but without chopping it can help with settler production....just make sure you use the mine when building the settler. Otherwise max growth with food resources, FP,, and one of the silk tiles when actually growing. (hope that makes sense)

Scout can clear out the fog below Berlin. New warrior can probably move to that PH marked as city2 to bust for now. 2nd warrior maybe move NW to bust that area. Once scout is finished scouting southern region he can find a good bust spot down there.

After worker finishes pigs, he can step 1NE > put 1 turn into farm > then step onto PH to mine. Again, not sure if that tile will ever be farmed - more like cottaged later - but it is more about driving home the technique.

Lastly, back to city placement, again think about what a city can do for you and how productive it will be - one way or another - immediately. Yes, sometimes you have to settle for a resource grab, but otherwise settle logically.

 

[OldDude]

I'd like to hear your logic on City 1 that you have marked. What does that city do for you now?

edit: okay..for some reason I overlooked your explanations above. I see a bit of logic now in your City1 locale, but I think the spot I described below is stronger now.

Yeah I was thinking getting cottages on those FPs as soon as possible would be good, but at this point it's unknown when Pottery would be teched. I'm always concerned about my economy.

The jungle pigs area NW does not interest me much - unless copper is there - for some time. It is otherwise just dead weight.

Bit of an odd map..well not odd necessarily ..with all that jungle.

Anyway, I recommend you try to start using the logic of trying to settle closer to the cap - overlapping cities and sharing tiles. Start thinking about what that means and how to make it work.

Right now, I lean toward settling one of the plains hills just E of Berlin. Either one probably is fine, although I like that the N PH shares the FP for cottage help later, as well as still covering one of Berlin's grass river tiles. Ofc, it can share rice eventually, and in the far future one day have some pork for supper. Also, benefit of some extra early happiness.

OK I can see the logic in that. One of the reasons I had that other PH marked as a possible spot is because of the fish as I didn't want to orphan that. But, if a city goes where you suggest, another one could go either 3NE or 4N2E for the fish I would imagine?

I think start a settler at size 3 after one or two warriors complete. I think worker can move to PH NE of Berlin to mine. Yes, mines not great early, but without chopping it can help with settler production....just make sure you use the mine when building the settler. Otherwise max growth with food resources, FP,, and one of the silk tiles when actually growing. (hope that makes sense)

Scout can clear out the fog below Berlin. New warrior can probably move to that PH marked as city2 to bust for now. 2nd warrior maybe move NW to bust that area. Once scout is finished scouting southern region he can find a good bust spot down there.

After worker finishes pigs, he can step 1NE > put 1 turn into farm > then step onto PH to mine. Again, not sure if that tile will ever be farmed - more like cottaged later - but it is more about driving home the technique.

Lastly, back to city placement, again think about what a city can do for you and how productive it will be - one way or another - immediately. Yes, sometimes you have to settle for a resource grab, but otherwise settle logically.

I'll change my plan to make City 1 on the PH you suggest. I think I do tend to think of what the city can do in the long term more than what it does in the now, and I tend to try to position them to fit as many specials as I can. I'll continue up until I have BW on the board and then post again, unless a question comes up beforehand.

Thanks @lymond!

 

[Fippy]

I think you got slightly confused with the plains farm, now AH is already here but your worker out of movement and i see you spent 2t on that farm
I would advice against useless tile worker actions (sorry Lymond ~~), you even did put a note there lol.
If your finger slips or you miscalculate, things like losing 1 worker turn can happen, and here 3 food for Berlin was lost. This plains farm will neeever ever be finished or used.

edit: sowy was me who was confused
I now see why there are 2 farm cancel actions.

 

[lymond]

hmmm...pretty sure OD did not lose any turns on the pigs. The turns into the farm were strictly worker half moves - it was more about understanding the idea behind using the moves. The worker is out of movement because it stepped on a hill (dead stop), which is why I advised OD to put that turn into plains farm as he was stepping 3 tiles to a hill. Again, not about the useless farm, but about the concept. It changes nothing though regarding improving the pigs sooner.

The first turn into the useless plains farm was from the move after the worker was built stepping from Berlin to the rice. Again, all about the concept.

So, nothing was lost here in this process, but My does reinforce how important each of these worker turns are and how important it is to micro these workers.

The concept about using these worker half turns will help a lot later when you apply it to similar moves where you can lay down partial improvement turns like a road or cottage as you move the worker towards a more crucial action (improvement or chop)

OD - again, I want to make very clear that the plain farm itself is not the point - it won't be finished.

As for other stuff. BW seems logical. That far fish spot has options later..still more scouting to do.

Yep, definitely need to start rethinking how you settle cities. As you move up levels, compactness becomes even more important as distance from cap maintenance increases significantly. Still, sometimes you have to settle a city a bit further to grab a key resource. Gold is often an enticement as well. But otherwise, as you say, think less about the long term and more about the now. This will totally change how you play and increase your success substantially.

 

[OldDude]

I'm at T32 now. BW just came in and wouldn't you know it, no copper anywhere. So no horses, no copper. Warrior is the only military unit I can build...should I go for archery next? Right now I chose TW.

I had 7 turns after improving the pigs until BW came in. I spent one movement turn on a farm (as you can see), then moved to the PH to mine. BW came in right as I finished the mine. First settler to be out in 3 turns and will settle that suggested PH. Worker after?

Spoiler T32 :

It looks like there is a potential to get boxed in here.

Holding here for now. Thanks!

 

[Pengu]

So, tried playing along and 1 N is a good capitol. I went AH-AG hoping for horses but I think AG 1st might be better. It's a bit of dilemma to go for BW or pottery 1st but I think BW is better as copper would be nice but there are quite alot of tiles to cottage.
Went BW. I try to avoid all the jungle tiles like the plague unless you have no commerce at all and the jungle is filled with gems. IW is something you can always trade with the AI and I find it is better to go for other tech. It is important to keep your cities together which is why I settled the 2nd city on the southern plain hill to the east of the capitol. You can get instant ivory(happiness) and share the rice from the capitol. I liked the 3rd city exactly on the tile where you had city1. All for the cottages. I got lucky with religious spread on the city and went fishing since there are a lot of fishing resources. After 3-4 cities I'd try to go for libraries as an early great scientist is really nice for the academy.

 

[lymond]

Ok...you have 67H into the 100H settler. Perfect for 2 pop whipping since you grew to Size 4. Significant OF. With the chop coming in this should be a 1 turn new worker. Switch to slavery now and whip the settler immediately next turn. Put OF and chop into new worker.

I think I would go Archery next after TW, to be safe. You can knock that out fairly quick. I don't like to do it, but with no strats, apparently rather far away AIs, and lots of jungle, it may be best. As you move up levels, especially Deity, you sometimes just have to do it. At least you start with hunting.

I'm torn between straight to Writing>Alpha (tend to just tech Alpha myself on this level). Or go Fish>POT>Writing, and possible look to get Elepults online. Alpha would be good early though for IW trade. I have to think on that.

With Philo, I might use first GS here to bulb Maths. That can be worthwhile bulb early, especially when one knows they can speed up a superior unit like Elies. Math bulb could mean letting AI tech Alpha for you, as you can probably get IW for Maths.

 

[Fippy]

Hmm leaning towards fishing and pottery, so much nice land with lots of seafood and rivers.
I think fogbusting some more with warriors could provide slightly better learning value than archery, it's not that dangerous on this level to try.

 

[lymond]

I guess if worse comes to shove, you can zip through Archery later, if needed. With a couple of cottages going, and some scientists, it will be quick to tech later.

I think send the NW warrior up to the pigs or maybe the forest PH next to it to bust up there. Guess scout is okay where he is for now until Berlin pops borders, which will clear a lot of the area, and then move a bit E. Next warrior probably due N up near that fish area.

Another note on busting, and My is really good at this, is to be cognizant of the AI units walking around. Each of those units provide temporary 5X5 busting from the tile they stand on, so you can adjust busters as well to get temporary coverage elsewhere.

 

[krikav]

Thats absolutely wonderful land to get "boxed in" in.
Like being locked in a candy factory overnight.

I would absolutely spam some warriors rather than tech archery here. After AH+BW you really really need to get to pottery asap before economy dies.

The suggestion to swap to slavery and whip the settler is good, but personally I think I would prefer to slow-build the settler and instead revolt when it is moving toward it's site, and then 2pop whip a worker instead.

But with elephants and phi, you do have opportunity for an very early attack with elepults here by bulbing math.
I don't think I would want to go that route though, I think I would rather go early academy and just expand. So much good land to settle peacefully and AIs are not very close.